The Bringers of Despair

[Dark_Apostle_XVII]

I'm considering running my Word Bearers using the Black Legion Codex from time to time (particularly in larger games) with a 'Counts As' Abaddon as my Dark Apostle. Not certain on this yet but I think it would suitably represent the elite Word Bearers with their hordes of Daemons and Cultists. Plus, it gives me a lot of points to paint for the next ETL.

 

Anyway, my point is, one of the main reasons I'm considering doing this is the Bringers of Despair, an elite terminator unit that would be a great stand in for the anointed. For +6 points a model, they gain +1 BS and WS.

 

I was considering equipping them as follows:

Champion with 2x Lightning Claws

4x Combi Plasma

2x Power Axes

2x Power Swords

 

Would this work? If not, how would you run your terminators?

 

The key to this is that it is a playable unit regardless of whether I run then as BL or not so would this loadout also work on standard terminators too?

 

Thanks Guys.

[minigun762]

Take advantage of cheap combi weapon upgrade and the BS boost by giving them either combi plasma or melta.

 

As far as CCWs, I think a mix of axes and mauls work best especially if you aren't taking fists. You don't want to get held up by AV12 walkers and AV13 walkers are still a threat.

[Vorenus]

I have used the Bringers of Despair in several games as an escort/personal guard for Abaddon, and they are pretty tough.  Are you going to put a Mark on them?  I have use both the Mark of Nurgle and the Mark of Tzeentch (not in the same game, obviously!) and been pretty happy with the results, depending on who the enemy will be.  (Whatever you do, DO NOT take the Mark of Nurgle against Dark Eldar!  Their ubiquitous poisoned weapons make a mockery of high Toughness.)

 

One thing that I'm not clear on from reading your post, how do you intend to get your Bringers of Despair into battle?  If I am counting right you have a total of 5 Terminators, which means if you want to add your "counts as" Abaddon the unit will be to big to fit into a Land Raider.  In my experience, these guys do best in a squad of 4 + Abaddon in a Land Raider, as they need some kind of delivery system to reach the enemy's lines.  I have also tried using larger squads (too large for a Land Raider) and arriving via Deep Strike, with . . . mixed results.  It's awesome when you can pull it off to drop a 600+ point unit right in the enemy's lines, but the chance of mishap is pretty high with models on such a large base.  If you are running a double-FOC (i.e., using two Combined Arms Detachments), you can mitigate this risk by taking the Dimensional Key relic from the main Chaos Space Marines codex on your Chaos Lord/Sorcerer/Daemon Prince/HQ from the non-Black Legion CAD.  However, even this is not a surefire strategy, as you have to make sure you can kill an enemy model in melee to unlock the Dimensional Key, which can be tough to do before you start rolling for reserves in round 2.  This is kind of a roundabout way of coming back to the point about the Land Raider being such a good delivery mechanism.

 

Anyway, once you decide how you are going to field the unit (i.e., Deep Strike, Land Raider, or just start on the board and foot-slog it the whole game), the fun starts when you actually make combat and tear into an enemy unit.  With BS 5 and twin-linked weapons, you pretty much hit whatever you're aiming at, and if you are fighting Marines don't forget to re-roll 1s in the To Wound phase as well due to Preferred Enemy (Space Marines). 

 

Have fun!

[Dark_Apostle_XVII]

That was my thoughts exactly, as many Combi Plasma's as possible.

I can see why you said Mauls over Swords but what about lightning claws on the champion, are they not worth it?

 

Probably Tzeentch if I take a mark, I don't mind using them in my Word Bearers. Better inv is more useful than T5 as anything good enough to ignore 2+ save will have a high enough strength for T5 to not matter.

As for transport, probably Deep Strike or walk. Don't like transport tanks much, even land raiders.

 

Cheers for the feedback guys :)

 

*Does anyone know the capacity/points for the FW chaos drop pod as that could be a nice alternative?

[minigun762]

I'd go with a single claw and combi weapon on the Champion. A BS5 shot is worth more than +1A.

[Dark_Apostle_XVII]

One more question I just thought of while pondering this unit. In an Unbound Army, can they be taken without having to take Abaddon? I assume they can be as all restrictions are lifted.

 

*Ooh, missed this earlier too. Worth adding a Heavy Flamer or Reaper Autocannon or better getting more Combi Plasma's?

[Kilofix]

I feel like you need at least a couple of Power Axes, Power Fists or Chainfists.

 

Because its kinda embarrasing if your Terminators go up against Loyalist Terminators and they kill you completely because they have Power Fists while you can't get past their 2+ Armor with only Power Mauls. Personally, in a 5 man, I like Champion - PS, 3 - PA, 1 - CF.

[Sception]

*Begrudgingly rouses self from the dead*

 

Unbound does NOT mean no restrictions.

 

It means no formal detachments with force organization charts - no minimum or maximum number of troops, HQ, Elites; no restrictions on what or how many factions you may include (as such restrictions are a function of the combined arms and allied detachments in 7e, rather than the ally rules); etc.  All other restrictions and requirements - that units be valid, that non battle buddies cannot ride each others transports, that in order to use the special rules of the chaos supplements the entire detachment must follow the restrictions thereof - all of those restrictions and requirements still apply.  If you want to use the bringers of despair in an unbound army, then you still need to field Abaddon, and you still need to take vets on every CSM unit able to take it which is part of the same detachment.

 

Yes, you can 'take any unit in your collection', but the 'bringers of despair' are not a unit.  Chaos terminators are a unit, and while you can take your unit of chaos terminators in any unbound army, you can only upgrade them to bringers of despair if you take Abaddon as well, and declare their 'detachment', ie all Chaos Space Marine units in your unbound army which are not part of a formation, to be using the Black Legion supplement rules.

 

Heck, in some ways unbound lists are more restrictive. A battleforged CSM army can take three combined arms detachments (so long as each has the requisite HQ and two Troops), and declare one to be using the Black Legion supplement, another to be using the Crimson Slaughter, and the third to be using no supplement at all, and in this way may include a sorcerer with the Last Memory, a Chaos Lord with the daemonheart and blade of the relentless, and a daemon prince with the Black Mace, all within the same army. This is not technically possible in an unbound army without house rules, as all the CSM units not in a formation would be a single detachment, and thus would all have to use the rules of one supplement, or the other, or neither. Picking and choosing on a unit by unit basis in an Unbound army is not allowed by the normal rules, because the supplements themselves state that they apply to entire detachment, not to individual units (ie, "all models in a crimson slaughter detachment" cause fear, or "all models in a black legion detachment" able to take vets must do so, etc).

 

So yeah. Unbound does not mean no restrictions, and yes you still need to take Abaddon if you want the Bringers of Despair in an Unbound army.

 

*returns to welcoming embrace of the tomb*

[Dark_Apostle_XVII]

There should be a couple of Axes in there mate. My original loadout was 2 axes, 2 swords and paired LC's on Champion.

But on the advice given so far it has changed to 2 axes, 2 mauls and either a 3rd axe on the champion or a single LC. All have Combi plasma.

I was a little wary of too many unwieldy weapons though (fists, axes or CF's) as having paid 30 points to make them all WS 5, I kind of want them to hit fast instead of losing some of their number before they can strike back.

But thinking about it, WS 5 makes them harder to be hit regardless of when they strike and makes it easier to hit back when they do. Therefore, these may be better with all unwieldy weapons as they have a slight better chance of taking the hits before hitting back?

 

Thanks for that Mal, that cleared it up. I see what you mean now as it's a character dependant upgrade rather than a FoC choice unbound has no effect.

[daboarder]

*Begrudgingly rouses self from the dead*

 

Unbound does NOT mean no restrictions.

 

It means no formal detachments with force organization charts - no minimum or maximum number of troops, HQ, Elites; no restrictions on what or how many factions you may include (as such restrictions are a function of the combined arms and allied detachments in 7e, rather than the ally rules); etc.  All other restrictions and requirements - that units be valid, that non battle buddies cannot ride each others transports, that in order to use the special rules of the chaos supplements the entire detachment must follow the restrictions thereof - all of those restrictions and requirements still apply.  If you want to use the bringers of despair in an unbound army, then you still need to field Abaddon, and you still need to take vets on every CSM unit able to take it which is part of the same detachment.

 

Yes, you can 'take any unit in your collection', but the 'bringers of despair' are not a unit.  Chaos terminators are a unit, and while you can take your unit of chaos terminators in any unbound army, you can only upgrade them to bringers of despair if you take Abaddon as well, and declare their 'detachment', ie all Chaos Space Marine units in your unbound army which are not part of a formation, to be using the Black Legion supplement rules.

 

Heck, in some ways unbound lists are more restrictive. A battleforged CSM army can take three combined arms detachments (so long as each has the requisite HQ and two Troops), and declare one to be using the Black Legion supplement, another to be using the Crimson Slaughter, and the third to be using no supplement at all, and in this way may include a sorcerer with the Last Memory, a Chaos Lord with the daemonheart and blade of the relentless, and a daemon prince with the Black Mace, all within the same army. This is not technically possible in an unbound army without house rules, as all the CSM units not in a formation would be a single detachment, and thus would all have to use the rules of one supplement, or the other, or neither. Picking and choosing on a unit by unit basis in an Unbound army is not allowed by the normal rules, because the supplements themselves state that they apply to entire detachment, not to individual units (ie, "all models in a crimson slaughter detachment" cause fear, or "all models in a black legion detachment" able to take vets must do so, etc).

 

So yeah. Unbound does not mean no restrictions, and yes you still need to take Abaddon if you want the Bringers of Despair in an Unbound army.

 

*returns to welcoming embrace of the tomb*

While you are right about requiring abbadon, your wrong about everything else.

 

 

 If you used the Unbound method, then once you choose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes.

 

 

Don’t forget that Detachments are entirely optional and you can still select an army by taking any models from your collection, as discussed in the Unbound method – it just means that none of the models in your army receive Command Benefits.

 

You'll note that NEITHER of those actually limit an unbound army to a single faction, they merely state that ONLY that faction gets the benefit of the warlord.

 

And seeing that they are the only mentions of unbound in relation to detachments in the BRB...well yeah

[Sception]

In which case the situation for the use of the chaos marine supplements is even more restricted than what I said, because in order to use them your warlord must then also be chosen from the CSM faction in order for your CSM units to be part of a detachment which may then be declared a Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter detachment.

 

Again, the rules for the CSM supplements are all 'units in a Black Legion detachment may do this' and 'units in a Crimson Slaughter detachment may take that'. They apply to detachments, not to individual units, so must first have a chaos marine detachment, then declare that detachment to be using one of the supplements, then you gain access to both the special rules and options of the supplement but must also abide by the restrictions there of. No detachment, no supplement rules. If detachment, then you may select zero or one supplements to apply to the entire detachment.

 

And you must still take Abaddon in your army in order to field the Bringers of Despair. If they were a distinct unit entry an argument could be made, but they are not, they are an upgrade, and they are an upgrade that is unlocked by specific conditions (being part of a black legion detachment, having Abaddon in the army). And you still may not (barring house rules - which admittedly should probably be a factor in unbound games regardless), have both the bringers of despair and a mace prince or daemonheart lord in the same unbound army, though you may in a battleforged army, so long as they are chosen from separate detachments.

[daboarder]

In which case the situation for the use of the chaos marine supplements is even more restricted than what I said, because in order to use them your warlord must then also be chosen from the CSM faction in order for your CSM units to be part of a detachment which may then be declared a Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter detachment.

sigh, no, mal, just no man.....

 

Please quote a SINGLE rule that states that the supplements cannot be taken in an unbound list.

All the rules state is that units ARE from the same faction get the warlord benefit, not that the army must be from a single book within that faction.

 

IE: An unbound list with a Codex warlord will grant the warlord trait to all units in the same faction, even Crimson slaughter units

 

 

 

If you used the Unbound method, then once you choose your Warlord, every model in your army that has the same Faction as your Warlord is considered to be part of the Primary Detachment for all rules purposes.

There is no limitation here on where the units come from. Merely a restriction on what units actually benefit from the warlord, and that is faction.

 

 

edit: here is an example/

 

I have a black legion warlord, a crimson slaughter sorcerer and a space wolf lord in an ubound list.

The Black legion and Crimson slaughter are the same faction, therefore the crimson slaughter sorc, benefits from the Black legion trait.

The Space wolf however is not, therefore does not benefit from the warlord trait.

 

This is a valid unbound list

[Sception]

Black Legion Supplement:

 

"Note that you can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing a detachment" - nebulous in terms of whether detachments are required in order to use the supplement rules at all, but makes clear that you may not use both supplements within the same detachment.

 

"when choosing a black legion detachment, units of chosen are troops choices instead of elites choices". If no detachment, then no Black Legion detachment, and no troop chosen.

 

"Units in a Black Legion detachment that have the option to take the Veterans of the Long War special rule must do so". If you do have a detachment, and choose to make that detachment a Black Legion detachment in order to access the supplement's special rules, then you must pay the vet tax on all relevant units within that detachment.

 

"Any character in your Black Legion detachment that can select chaos Artefacts cannot select from those listed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but can instead select from the Chaos Artefacts of the Black Legion". No detachment? Then no Black Legion detachment, and no black legion artefact. Yes detachment? Then you may declare it to be a Black Legion detachment, in which case all of the CSM characters in said detachment have access to the Black Legion artefacts, and none of them have access to the parent book artefacts or Crimson Slaughter artefacts.

 

As for the bringers of despair.... Curiously, to my surprise they do not have the note about detachments, and are the only supplement rule without that note. That is pretty easy to argue as an oversight, but setting that aside, the actual rule says "If Abaddon the Despoiler is the Warlord of your primary detachment, you can upgrade a single unit of Chaos Terminators to the Bringers of Despair"

 

Theoretically then, if Abaddon is your warlord, then you could say the detachment isn't a Black Legion detachment, and use the Bringers of Despair anyway? Though you couldn't use the crimson slaughter rules (reference first quote), and you wouldn't have access to the Black Legion artefacts. You'd still have troop chosen thanks to Abaddon, but it wouldn't matter since org slot doesn't come with any additional rules for Unbound lists.

 

Frankly, though, using Black Legion options in the detachment (since it would be a detachment, because your warlord is from the CSM faction), without making it a Black Legion detachment, seems frankly against the spirit, and if you tried to take non-vet Bringers in particular I'd treat you to a stern look of fatherly disapproval.

 

Regardless, going unbound does not remove all restrictions, and in particular does not remove the restriction that you must take Abaddon (and make him your warlord even) in order to upgrade a unit of chaos terminators to be the bringers of despair.

[daboarder]

And your view reconciles with

 

 

 

Don’t forget that Detachments are entirely optional and you can still select an army by taking any models from your collection, as discussed in the Unbound method – it just means that none of the models in your army receive Command Benefits.

 

How?

 

For clarification, the unbound section states.

 

 

Unbound ArmiesThe Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: simply use whichever units from your collection you want. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters.

 

Detatchments aren't a thing in unbound beyond who has access to the warlord trait.

 

 

As to Abbadon and the Bringers, I already agree's that unbound doesnt change the need for him in the list.

[Sception]

None of the Black Legion options are models are units. Chaos Lords are a unit, you can take Chaos Lords in any unbound army. Those chaos lords may have access to Black Legion artefact options if and only if they are part of a black legion detachment. You may take Chaos Terminators in any unbound army. But they may not be upgraded to Bringers of Despair unless Abaddon is your warlord.

 

You can field any units you want in an unbound army, but those units must still be legal units, including meeting any requirements listed by the unit to field it or any of its options. You can no more field the Bringers without Abaddon than you could field a unit of Nurgle-marked chaos bikers with the icon of Slaanesh. Likewise you cannot field Daemon Princes with dark eldar shadow fields, or mount chaos marines in transports chosen from a loyalist marine faction.

 

Detachments are optional, but if you don't use them then you don't get the rules associated with them, whether they are core rules (like command benefits) or modular rules (like the Black Legion supplement benefits and restrictions).

 

There is no conflict here. If the Black Legion supplement added new units, one could make an argument, since you 'can field any unit in your collection'. But it doesn't. It just adds options to existing units. You can still field those units, but you can't give those units the supplemental options without meeting the prerequisites thereof - ie, being in a 'Black Legion detachment', or fielding Abaddon as your warlord.

 

 

Again, unbound frees you from force organization charts. It doesn't free you from any other game restrictions. It doesn't free you from the ally rules (which in 7e do not restrict which units you can take, but rather dictate how the various units in your army interact with each other on the table top), or from other army construction restrictions (unique units and options are still restricted to one per army), or from your codex rules (such as which characters can join what units, or what upgrades can be taken together), or your supplement rules (such as what requirements must be met to unlock the options there of).

 

House rules could of course dictate otherwise, and IMO house rules should be part of any healthy unbound game to begin with, much as with Apocalypse. House rules allowing unbound CSM armies to be divided into chunks, with each chunk selecting its supplement rules independently would strike me as a reasonable house rule in this situation, as I certainly agree that it is against the spirit of the rules for unbound armies to be more restrictive than battleforged. But IMO such a house rule would need to maintain the spirit of the supplement rules themselves. Bringers without Abaddon, or non-vet bringers, would not, in my opinion, maintain that spirit.

[Kol Saresk]

And this why we need a FAQ on this[singsong]

 

Because this rules lawyering really hurts my head. Seriously, its like someone's running a drill in there. Oh hey Doc, why is that drill so bloody?

 

*flatline*

[Sception]

I agree an errata/FAQ would be nice. In particular I'd like to have Abby's immunity to spawndom and princedom back.

 

However, in the mean time, while clarification on this matter would be nice, it's really not all that complicated. "characters in a black legion detachment" select artifacts from the BL list and not the main list. Not a black legion detachment? then no BL artefacts. Yes a black legion detachment? then the change applies to all characters therein. "If Abaddon is your warlord, one unit of chaos terminators" may be upgraded to bringers of despair. Abaddon not your warlord? Then no such upgrade. Not difficult to parse, and nothing in the core rules contradicts it. If you want to use the supplement rules, just read them, and follow them, and put your brain power to work trying to get the most out of their benefits, instead of trying to sneak your way out of their restrictions.

 

 

====================

 

As for using bringers, I'd deep strike them with combi plas. None of their other shooting options are particularly great by comparison, and you really want to make use of their BS5. That said, I mostly just recommend not using them. 6 points a model for +1 Ws/Bs is just too much, especially when you're already spending over 250 on Abaddon, and the terminators themselves already are of rather questionable points efficiency when you factor in the whopping 3 points a model for the obligatory vets upgrade. I mean, do you really think a terminator with power axe and combi plas is really worth 40 points, even with Ws5 and Bs5?

 

Then again, there is something to be said for a full squad of bringers dropping down with abaddon and just deleting a loyalist opponent's most expensive unit with a torrent of plasma, hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s and re-rolling ones for both, then smashing into melee in the following turn. It's very much a 'Timmy' unit, to borrow MtG terminology. Not efficient, but impressive. A "Win Big, Lose Big (and often)" kind of unit. Not the sort I'd take to tournaments, but the kind I might consider in casual games, where the occasional curb stomping might provide enough satisfaction to make up for several losses due to poor efficiency, unwieldyness (once the unit is down, it's not easy to reposition), the general impact on your army's ability to go after objectives, and the tendency of your list to fold if the termies mishap, or if your opponent is able to delete them in the turn after their arrival.

[Dark_Apostle_XVII]

Thanks for your input guys, you have definitely answered my question about taking the bringers of despair without Abaddon.

 

As for how Unbound works, never played it before and reading through your posts I can see where both views are coming from. But Kol is right, it really needs an FAQ as I found a lot of the new FOC rules quite vague in places. Will have to just agree that with my opponents and play it how we both agree.

 

To be honest, there is no reason why I couldn't use a Counts as Abaddon as some sort of Dark Apostle (with terminator armour and undivided mark represented by Abaddon's combined mark) to get the bringers of despair.

 

It's a shame they can't be taken without Abaddon as it was this unit that made me want to use BL rules for WB's but like Mal said a few house rules are great with unbound - we are quite a chilled out group so I can see no reason why they would mind me using them without Abaddon (as long as they have vets and other options) as a fluffy house rule to represent the WB's anointed. Just the other day we were talking about my mate using sm drop pods as a CSM transport option for a game as it fits his fluff and none of us had a problem with it. We even said it could stay battle forged and count as a genuine option from the chaos rulebook so I can't see it being a problem. We play for the fun and fluff so any bending of the rules that benefit those two are welcome.

 

At least I know the official ruling in case I ever need to.

 

Thanks again guys :)

 

*and having just seen your suggestion for how to use them Mal I completely agree. That was why I was looking to equip them in a way that can be used by both normal and upgraded terminators as most games I'll run them normally using c:CSM but may upgrade them with BL rules just for fun every now and then. 40 points is a lot to be spending on a unit that may not even be that optimal.

 

In a Non Bringers set up using the standard Terminator rules would the same loadout work?

That way I can build them the same and switch to whatever rules I fancy using as and when or if I have the points to spend.

[Sception]

Honestly, if your local group is amenable to house rules, you might try your and at a homebrew supplement. Let's see... I'd say vet's tax, allow characters to join units regardless of mark, and option to upgrade one unit of possessed to 'gal vorbak', using the points and stats of the heresy unit? Maybe a couple unique artefacts, and a 3 wound apostle option? I don't know, don't go overboard, keep the existing supplements in mind as a reference.

 

Otherwise, yeah, I see plenty of counts as Abaddons. The Iron Warriors player at my local shop runs one as his default warlord, though he doesn't use the Black Legion rules. Like me, he's less than impressed with what the BoD add compared to their massive points cost, and again like me finds the vets upgrade rather insultingly excessive in cost on terminators, especially terminators that are going to be inheriting preferred enemy from Abaddon so they'll be fearless re-rolling ones to hit anyway.

[Dark_Apostle_XVII]

That sounds cool! I hear great things about the FW HH Gal Vorbak too and the new models are gorgeous! Thanks mate.

 

Might have a go at converting an Abaddon anyway so I have that option. Even if it just means I get an almost 300 point contribution from a single model for next years ETL (which I'll be on the side of Chaos for this time), and even if I don't use them as them in a game, BoD points for the ETL would be awesome too ;)

 

*yes I am planning next year already, won't have much time for painting when I'm back at uni in September so other than a few summer projects I'm hoping to save what I have and build/prepare it for the next ETL which will hopefully add to another inspiring showing from the Chaos forum.

[Sception]

Honestly, Abaddon isn't all that out of place working with Word Bearers. I mean, yeah, he'd have his own troops, so dividing them into separate detachments (or just separate chunks in an unbound list) would make sense, but while I don't have any cannon evidence to this effect, I have to imagine the Word Bearers and the Black Legion are bros. I mean, the Word Bearers worship the gods of chaos as a unified pantheon, and coming together to support Abaddon as their mortal avatar, placing him in command of all their otherwise divided forces, is about the only thing they've actually done as a unified pantheon in the past ten thousand years.

 

Say what you will about his successes or failures, but there's no denying that Abaddon has been and continues to be openly blessed by all the chaos gods, and that's the sort of thing Word Bearers in general would pretty much have to respect - begrudgingly or not.

[Kol Saresk]

From what I've seen and heard without an actual rulebook, when it comes to Unbound, Mali is hitting the RAW(Rules as Written). However DaBoarder is hitting the RAI(Rules as Intended) and as Dabparder pointed out, there is enough plain statement in the rulebook that we can see what the intent is. The problem is, many, many, many, many, many people and tournaments and etc, only look at RAW. So until an explicit statement saying "Go by the intent, not the written" or it clarifies the written to better match the intent, there will be conflict.

As for Gal Vorbak and such, my dream is CS Possessed Lord, Gal Vorbak in the Elite slot, Possessed Troops and Spawn FA. Talk about a daemon list.

[Sception]

The intent of unbound is to free armies of general organizational restrictions, yes, but I'm pretty confident in saying the intent was still for the units chosen to be legal in and of themselves. I would favor house rules allowing the dividing of unbound CSM lists into chunks using different supplements, but would not favor house rules allowing the use of different supplements on the same model, or using unbound as an excuse not to pay the vet tax or the like.

 

You also have to consider the intent of the codex and supplement rules you're using. The Bringers of Despair were intended to represent Abaddon's personal elite bodyguard, the most elite chaos terminators in the entire galaxy, unequaled in their fighting skill by even the veteran terminators of the other heresy legions, who exist solely to protect the warmaster and never leave his side. The intent there was very much for the Bringers of Despair to only be fielded in armies that include Abaddon. Even if we're ignoring RAW and going straight to RAI in order to determine appropriate interpretations and house rules, I personally don't feel the cloudy intentions of the unbound rules should override the very clear intentions of the supplement rules in this regard.

 

As per my own dream for possessed - it would be repackaging the current possessed models w/ 40mm bases (they're sufficiently larger than basic CSMs to justify it, imo), and just replacing the current possessed rules with the Gal Vorbak or something close to it altogether.

[Kol Saresk]

Like I said, the intent needs to be clarified better in the written. I agree certain things should be required certain ways, ie Bringers of Despair only traveling with Abaddon, but not necessarily to the point "If you have Bringers of Despair, you cannot have Possessed Troops". After all, IIRC fluffwise there are supposed to be Possessed Warbands within the Black Legion. I know there was mention of the Secondborn in that Champion of Chaos Abaddon short and I think there was another group called the Tormented I think? But RAW, as you pointed out, means that the Tormented/Secondborn/Whateverthey'recalled have to be a CS army with nothing from the BL Supplement. Basically, the Unbound should be bound by fluff.

 

Eh, I don't feel using the Gal Vorbak for the Possessed Rules. There were literally only ever 40 of them in the galaxy, well original and true at any rate. And just in the first year in the Heresy, their number has been quartered if I have the right estimates and the rest have gone off to make their own Chapters/squads/warbands. Even the second generation of Gal Vorbak do not equal up to the first. I agree Possessed could use a boost, but there is supposed to be a distinct level of difference between them. So fluffwise, same simply isn't an option. As for close, I think that ends up becoming relative and in flux. But that's just my opinion.