Militarum Tempestus as allies for Grey Knights

[BladeGaurd]

Has any one tried 1/4 to 1/3 codex called Militarum Tempestus as allies for the 2/3 codex Grey Knights?  If so how did it work.

I am curious on the effectiveness of a Grey Knights primary detachment with some Scions and Taurox Primes.

 

I am about to work on a 9 man squad with 2 melta guns and a plasma pistol, a command squad with to hotshot volley guns, a Taurox Primes with missiles and a Valkyries made anti infantry.

[Kilofix]

I've had some success adding Inquisitor HQs to Scions. Especially OM TDAs to add Leadership, add PsyCannon fire, tank hits and to dissuade folks from close assaulting. Its nice that the GK and the OM TDA HQs can Deep Strike with the Scions.

 

I've also tried OH with PsyOc to give them BS10 against Units with Psykers.

[Bionicman]

I've given it a thought but there were more reasons against taking them:

 

Mobility - they can DS but so can strikes

Costs - 70 for 5 no upgrades against 100 for 5 naked gkss (30pts)

Armour - 5+ is pretty squishy, DS & die while with 3+ there is a fair chance that your guys can survive and accomplish sth

Loadout - HE lasguns with S3 AP3, two shots at 9'' or S4-5 24'' and I rather kill MEQ in CC after softening them up with stombolters

                 -or- buy plas or melter with +20pts so its 90 <> 100 with all disadvantages above.

 

For duty beyond DS I'll rather have much cheaper henchmen. So imo the only reason to have them is expensive DS melter. And don't get me started on that overpriced paper van. Why buy when you can DS. It won't keep your guys save, it's more like a death trap. Plus inquisition chimeras are still good and inexpensive!

 

Edit:

DS Melter - I prefer =][= Valkyries with accolytes and grav chute insertion. The flyer can add to horde control if needed or provides super mobility at a rather low price (without upgrades).

[BladeGaurd]

They are armor 4+.  I enjoyed storm troopers back when they where in the codex as they added bodies and decent options at bs 4, melta guns and plasma guns. The Taurox Prime is bs 4 and has twin linked autocannons and a 2 shot missile launcher. For about 500 pt I am adding 16 models that add some flexibility to the force and collection, are they ideal well that is what play is for.

Strikes when they deep strike can still suffer dangerous and these guys do not, though my initial plan is to run the 9 man squad up and go tank hunting in the Taurox Prime and have the Taurox Prime take pot shots where needed.

Yes strikes are better at certain things, just not tank hunting and arguably MEQ killing at a range.

[Kilofix]

Remember that Scions can also use Orders.

 

With Orders from the MT Codex you could get either of the following:

• Twin-Linked
• Preferred Enemy
• Crusader
• Fleet
• Sniper / Pinning
• Rending against MCs / Vehicles

The first two being great for Plasma (of which you can get 4 in a Scion Command Squad) and the last two being great against like WraithKnights, Riptides, Tyrannofex, etc.

 

MEQs could kill GKSS in Assault, but Scions will kill MEQs in Shooting.

 

And, they're cheaper.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Yes, the Scion orders can be quite powerful.

 

Also, while the internet consensus is that hotshot lasguns are awful, I personally have found them to be decent. In a recent tournament I attended, I was able to use servo-skulls to good effect deep-striking Scions with pinpoint accuracy to rapid-fire with hotshot lasguns. My 9-man plasma squad was able to delete a combat squad per phase of shooting and that's without any orders. If they had a command squad within 12" they could be even more effective.

 

That said, they do die quickly to templates, but I found they weathered bolter fire surprisingly well.

 

Just as an example, in one battle I was able to deep-strike them in the midst of two tactical combat squads and a 5-man assault squad. In one turn, they wiped-out one combat squad. They survived my opponent's shooting phase with enough bodies left that they were able to gun-down the assault squad next turn. Then they got charged by the remaining combat squad and died horribly (there were only 2 or 3 of them left at that point).

[Bionicman]

Ah yes, 4+ you are correct. You won't be harmed by bolter fire, that is important. But a common heavy flamer still ruins your day.

 

Orders are great, no argument here. BUT... you only get one order, at the price of + 15pts, you can't order in or out a taurox prime and if they DS they need to be in range of the ordered squad, if not ordering themselves.

 

Lets do some quick math on HE rifles vs stormbolters against MEQ.

GKSS
a) no specials
5 stormbolters: 10 shots, 6.6 hit, 3.3 wound, 1.1 dead
-> 1.1 dead MEQ

b.) 1 psybolter
4 stormbolters: 8 shots, 5.3 hit, 2.6 wound, 0.86 dead
1 psycannon: 2 shots, 1.3 hit, 1.1 wound, 0.37 dead
-> 1.23 dead MEQ

Scions:
a) no specials
4 He lasguns: 8 shots, 5.3 hits,  1.76 wounds = 1,76 dead
1 He pistol: 1 shot, 0.67 hits,  0.223 wounds = 0.23 dead
-> 2 dead MEQ

b.) 2 he volley guns
2 He lasguns: 4 shots, 2.6 hits,  0.88 wounds = 0.88 dead
2 He volley: guns 4 shots, 2.6 hits, 1.3 wounds = 1.3 dead

1 He pistol: 1 shot, 0.67 hits,  0.223 wounds = 0.23 dead
-> 2.4 dead MEQ

 

Best case scenario for Scions here, being in 6'' (or 9'' if you subtract 0.23 for the he laspistol) range. GKSS don't mind scatter that much as they can fire 24'' with full effect (+ 13''- 18'' advantage). Difference is about one dead MEQ in output.

 

But what then?

Scions will be shot and / or assaulted. If assaulted expect them to die. If shot at, they probably will die too.

GKSS will be shot at but rarley assaulted as MEQ fear force weapons. Every wound in CC is a dead marine. If the enemy will not charge, he has to waste more and or higher quality firepower to kill your squad. If he ignores them, you move, shoot and assault by yourself, and will deal a lot of damage.

 

 

I don't want to talk anybody out of Scions. Diversity is desired. But how good are they really? Move through cover is nice but you won't use it if deep striking. All other options require vehicles, and the taurox prime is pretty mediocre...

 

 

Edit: Spelling error as always *sigh* and emoticons...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Rule of Cool factor is very high for Scions -- at least for me, I love the models.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Scions are terrible and should be avoided. Oh, let me count the ways;

- AP3 basic guns....that are S3 and range 18", and thus struggle to wound half the time against T3, nevermind the T4 Marines they're supposed to kill

- 4+ armour....AP4 is cheap and plentiful...also heavy flamers....hell even regular shots kill you half the time...

- Marine prices....for T3 guys that can't fight out of a wet paper bag in melee, but pack only short-range shooting

- Awesome weapon options....which you'll use for about one Shooting phase, due to their lack of staying power

- Taurox Primes have so many cool guns...on an AV11 platform, in an edition where AV12 is considered weak

 

Even for suicide melta, you pay a big premium to maybe kill a tank when they land (new damage table means even melta needs multiple attempts to one-shot). 

 

Henchmen do everything Scions do better, cheaper, and in codex. Not to mention they have better transport options, are very scalable (you can go min Acolyte, or build them out, entirely up to you), servitors, alternate melee builds....

 

I admit I like the new models, they're cool, but the rules killed any interest in collecting them. 

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I think "terrible" is a bit strong. Not optimized? Sure. Not competitive? Possibly. But they are still playable. I use them a lot. I used them back when they were 16 points apiece. I find them to be a fun and decent unit. You do need to keep them the heck away from heavy flamers when they deep strike that is true.

[Kilofix]

I think "terrible" is a bit strong. Not optimized? Sure. Not competitive? Possibly. But they are still playable. I use them a lot. I used them back when they were 16 points apiece. I find them to be a fun and decent unit. You do need to keep them the heck away from heavy flamers when they deep strike that is true.

 

I would agree with not optimized / not competitive but still usable and can be fluffy fun.

 

I also think that pairing them with an OM or GK in TDA to tank mitigates some of their weaknesses. I.e. in terms of weaknesses; GKSS + GK/OM TDA vs MT + GK/OM TDA gap is much smaller than GKSS vs MT.

[BladeGaurd]

Unless I am running Coteaz I can only have 1 unit of acolytes or I ally with the inquisition, which is normally 3 plasma cannons or 3 multimetla converted space marines scouts + some others to take wounds. I can take up to 2 scion troop squads and 1 hq squads if I want which allows for more capability.

As for competitive, I am more interested in having fun and the rest will fallow. I remember when people said daemon hunters where not competitive at the 'Ard Boyz after the Blood Angels came out but I took second out of 50 or 60 players with them at a qualifier with no inducted IG (much to the shock of everyone there). I miss those days where I did not need Coteaz to have storm troopers for my army and could mix Grey Knights and none Grey Knight elements easily.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

You're a man after my own heart, BladeGuard. I feel exactly the same way.

 

I miss those days, too. Although reflecting on them, remembering that Inquisitorial Storm Troopers were 10 pts apiece, an additional 2 points seems like a pretty good deal to gain AP3, deepstrike, and orders.

[BladeGaurd]

Yes reflecting on it, I am so glad I got rhinos for those squads instead of chimeras. Now my rhinos have been taken by my Strike Squads.  2 pt is nothing compared to the gain, the only possible loss comes form taking the Valkyrie over a inquisitor and retinue but that may change still.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Well, you can still bring an inquisitor thanks to Codex: Inquisition. In fact, I am building exactly such a force right now (Militarum Tempestus and Inquisition) -- check out the link in my signature if you're interested in checking it out.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the new Grey Knights codex hits. I will not be surprised if the inquisition stuff is no longer in there. Will the Inquisition get an update to the their electronic-only codex, a proper codex, or something else? Who knows, but if they just cut out =][= from the GK codex and otherwise keep things the same I'll be content. Not happy -- I really yearn for the days of Inquisitors with retinues that buff them -- but content

[BladeGaurd]

I will worry more about the next codex when it is here, probably at the max a year and a half away. they could take the =][= out but I doubts it, I am only even marginally entertaining that idea based off of the digital codex. Will they change the =][= if left in, most definitely, I just not sure what all they could add to GK instead, may be a destroyer esc squad like in the HH forge world has made, a new dreadnought (I think the writing is on the wall), a flyer or two (may be some decent non boxy space marine flyers, I can only dream right) but I am just not sure.

I will check out your link.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think "terrible" is a bit strong. Not optimized? Sure. Not competitive? Possibly. But they are still playable. I use them a lot. I used them back when they were 16 points apiece. I find them to be a fun and decent unit. You do need to keep them the heck away from heavy flamers when they deep strike that is true.

 

'Playable' is true of just about every army in 40k, so damning with faint praise really. My chief issues with the army are;

 

- They're overpriced (T3 4+ save is not worth 12ppm. Don't care what guns they get)

- Most of their shooting is 18" or less (on models with quite mediocre staying power...not to mention it puts them, at best, a turn away from getting charged)

- S3 is pathetically bad unless you're shooting other humans or Eldar, and even then its a 50/50 to wound

- Irrelevant melee (their basic troopers get rekt by cheaper chaff and more elite units, Sarges and Primes can't kill enough to bail you out of most combats)

- Easily killed dedicated transports (talking ground vehicles here, as Valks predate the Scions)

 

The workable builds I've seen usually revolve around Allying them with either Space Wolves or regular Marines. In that context, Scions do the grunt work of bringing special weapon spam (something they arguably do better than Tacs, although Henchmen and Veteran still beat them on price) and some cheap gunboats to say a Biker or TWC list (who lack model count and ranged flexibility). As a standalone force though, they have glaring issues of staying power and price point. 

 

I think the intention is that you Ally a detachment of Scions into your AM list, thus getting the cool unique Orders for them, while retaining a solid AM core force to cover the areas Scions don't work at (ie long-range, staying power, melee etc). 

 

 

As far as an Ally for use, they're good for suicide melta, and that's about it. Henchmen just do so much more work and are far more flexible in both how much you wanna invest and their loadout options. Also, if you're not taking Coteaz as a HQ for Knights, you're doing it wrong. Even when they remove him from our codex with the update, he's still absurd and well worth taking. Just means you'll need either a Grandmaster or Librarian to fill our mandatory HQ slot. 

[lt051]

I've been struggling with this decision lately. Trying to decided if I'll get a chimera or taurox prime for my stormtroopers, since that pretty much dictates which codex I use. Also slightly worried the new ][ codex will use the taurox whenever it comes around :/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've been struggling with this decision lately. Trying to decided if I'll get a chimera or taurox prime for my stormtroopers, since that pretty much dictates which codex I use. Also slightly worried the new ][ codex will use the taurox whenever it comes around :/ 

 

Taurox Primes do have BS4 and decent weapon options. Chims have AV12 frontal but they're otherwise just as vulnerable (AV10 side and rear). I'd probably go with Taurox Primes then, before they die they'll put out good shooting for you. 

[lt051]

Ya, hopefully the prime is in the next ][ codex, might just wait till it drops to decided. I like scions but if I bring them I have to bring 2 squads + hq, whereas henchmen I can get away with just 1 or 2 small units. Plus then there's the whole ][ psycher option for henchmen

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

For a Scion allied detachment you could bring one squad plus a 25 Point commissar so you don't necessarily need 2 troop or an expensive HQ (although admittedly commissars are rather lacklustre)

[BladeGaurd]

I think the command squad bring a good bit to the table with orders and up to 4 special weapons. Though if you are tight on points use the commissar.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think the command squad bring a good bit to the table with orders and up to 4 special weapons. Though if you are tight on points use the commissar.

 

 

Yeah, I mean four BS4 plasma, melta or hotshot volley guns is pretty sick. The issue is keeping them alive, as they're stuck at 5-man. Probably want them in a Valkyrie.