So what would happen if others knew the DA secret?

[Kilofix]

First of all - hope this doesn't end up in any kind of controversy; it isn't my intent for such, I'm just genuinely curious:

 

What would happen if everyone else in the Imperium of Man knew about Luther and half the Dark Angels Chapter going Traitor during the Heresy?

 

The Grey Knights already know (per BL WZ Pandorax), and I'm assuming quite a few Inquisitors know, so is the issue that there will be reprisal or excommunication from the High Lords of Terra, the Ordo Hereticus and / or other Chapters (and if so, which Chapters would really go after the DA)?

 

Or, is it simply a 'shame / honor' thing?

 

Thanks for the insights.

 

Edit - Just to clarify, my question was around; how would others treat the DAs if they knew. Not how the DAs would treat others that found out.

[notmattlythgoe]

What happens during the Pandorax Campaign that the Grey Knights find out about the Fallen?

 

Inquisitors have disappeared for finding out too much about the Fallen, I doubt too many, if any at all know.

[Terrahawk]

A bolter round to the head, that is what happens. :devil:

[Prot]

Right or wrong, I assume people do know. The Inquisition for certain.  There's just too many fallen, and too many 'escapies' for me to believe the Inquisition could be that incompetent. 

 

I can't sneak out for lunch on a job interview without half my staff finding out... never mind hiding a heresy. 

 

So right or wrong, I assume some know. But to who knows is the bigger question to me, because if the =I= knows, they could be satisfied seeing the resulting, all consuming quest for atonement and redemption the Dark Angels embark on. 

 

But if someone like... let's say Justin Beiber knew, yea, he'd have to die. Just cause... well it's Beiber and it would be a great excuse.

[Tanyr]

I've wondered that myself. By this point, entire space marine chapter's falling to chaos isn't unheard of, let alone portions of them. The Soul Drinkers, Wolf Brothers, the entire Astral Claws, Relictors ( possibly ), the list goes on. Even the Blood Angels were led into a small scale civil war by a warp-tainted mutant. If they had the temerity to order us on a penance crusade, the inner circle would laugh. We've been on a penance crusade for the last 10,000 years... 

 

What will they do, treat us with suspicion? A bit late for that, in my opinion. Declare us traitors? While not impossible, i think the Imperium would tread VERY carefully in doing that to a First Founding Chapter. In the fluff, many more recent chapters are on their own should they fail. Should the original fall under attack...I can easily see all those descended from it assisting with all their strength. Especially one with ties with its successors as strong as ours.

 

Until we know the amount of the Fallen, I don't think it can be known just how badly we would be judged. I've seen numerous numbers thrown around, but until we reach the end of the DA's HH novel line...I'm not sure anyone knows. Out of curiosity, i've heard half of the legion "quoted" often enough, but i've never been able to find out where that number came from. Does anyone have a reference for that, or is it likely propaganda from the less fortunate members of the "later legions".

[Aradiel]

the "half the legion" is just a figure someone pulled off their hat and it stuck.

there were those marines sent back to caliban, and its been referd by gw about several generations of recruits. the number could be big but certainly not half the legion, and most of them were wet behind the ears rookies. also we must not forget that there was fighting in caliban before Jonson returned, that would further decrease the number of fallen.

so, many? yes. half the legion? not even close

[Tanyr]

Aye, it would be a nice twist if the action that granted the Angels of Absolution their absolution was that they were founded from those Calibanite recruits who remained loyal to the Lion. It would certainly explain why they would view the hunt differently from the rest of those descended from the 1st legion.

[Grotsmasha]

the "half the legion" is just a figure someone pulled off their hat and it stuck.

there were those marines sent back to caliban, and its been referd by gw about several generations of recruits. the number could be big but certainly not half the legion, and most of them were wet behind the ears rookies. also we must not forget that there was fighting in caliban before Jonson returned, that would further decrease the number of fallen.

so, many? yes. half the legion? not even close

 

Whilst I agree that 1/2 is unlikely, The Lion returning to Caliban was post Heresy and Scouring, there's plenty of potential for the DA's to have taken serious loses.

 

As to the secret itself, people know, but 10,000 years of honourable actions is a lot of history for some one to try and undo. The real problem for the Dark Angels would be if anyone found out what they've done to KEEP the secret, then they'd be in serious do-do for sure.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Aradiel]

yes, the bigest problem would be not the fall of caliban itself but all the naughty things the DA did over the years to hide it. but considering the current state of the imperium, i do not believe that going to war with a force the size and power of the combined unforgiven is something the inquisition or the high lords want. they would do nothing or would reach some kind of compromise. there are hints that some people at the very top have knowledge of the fall and so far nothing has hapened. the imperium is a big place and a few indescretions can be forgiven, as long the 1st dont actually turn against the imperium, they should be fine. i hope

[Chaplain Lucifer]

We're a full fledged legion of old living on afloating, gigantic, warp jumping rock. What could happen to us? Worse it could happen would that we call all the Sucessors and give a bloody nose to whoever stood in our way. :D Think about the possibilities of Hunting the Fallen without the need for secrecy and kiddie gloves. Worlds burning, destroyed fleets mere debris floating in space.... Chaos Gods smiling at the carnage.... Win/win. ;)

[Kilofix]

But that begs the question then - why go to such great lengths to keep it a secret?

[Tanyr]

The Imperium is an engine of conformity and preserving what it already has, or discovered long ago. It values the status quo and tradition to a level we probably can't comprehend on a realistic level. The Adeptus Astartes even more so, keeping to their own beliefs with a strength that borders on fanaticism, and the first founding chapters most of all. Even among that most honoured group, the Dark Angels would be highly ranked contenders for the top.

 

Why do we keep it a secret? Because when it happened, the results would have spelled disaster for the Legion. The Emperor, citizens faith in his chosen warriors, numerous planets all lost in the span of seven years. To discover that a significant portion of the 1st legion were disloyal would have seen us ostracized at the least, and the fate of destruction all too likely. So they kept it a secret. Then, the next generation did the same, and on and on until the present day. Why do we go to such great lengths to keep it a secret? Because thats what we've done for the last 10 millennium. 

[Burias-Drak'shal]

If it wasn't kept secret wouldn't the Wolves come calling.

[Marshal Mattias]

The wolves for sure, and all the other fanatics. *Cough-Templars-Cough*

Different chapters hold to different principles and there are many factions who would easily be drawn into all-out conflict. One might argue that the inner circle is aware of this and maintains the secret because of it? Better to keep it hidden than to even risk further civil war.

 

Remember the whole ophidium gulf incident? Was it the fallen rescuing their leader, or true DA capturing one of the fallen? Did their fleet destroy that Templar vessel? The answer is: it doesn't matter. Guilty or innocent, if the Templars ever got word that some kind of DA had attacked, do you think they'd stop to have a rational discussion about it? If the defence was 'it wasn't us, just some of our own who turned traitor,' do you think that would sate them, or the Imperium at large?Boom, civil war. Better to keep it to yourselves ;)

[JJD]

When Approximately 9 out of 10 Unforgiven themselves don't know the secret I personally can't imagine the secret is out. I will admit I have barely scratched the surface of the BL so it may be that I haven't read it yet but I thought the only people who knew were the inner circle the big E and the fallen themselves. I think there is a grey knight in pandorax thought to have originated from the DA's but I doubt he's telling.

 

Remember in this world whole planets have been subject to exterminatus just because they fought alongside and thus know of the grey knights. A world were record keeping is so poorly kept that the origins of recently founded chapters have been lost all together. In this world hiding knowledge of an incident on one planet 10000 years ago seems quite believable. Think about how long 10000 years is. The bible is set 2000 years ago on another continent. we are talking five times longer in another part of the galaxy

 

That said if someone can reference the secret being out I will stand corrected.

 

Edited for dyslexia as usual.

[Tanyr]

The Ophidium Gulf incident was retconned into a mere shadow of its former self in the last SM codex. A pity, while it did cast a dark pall over the Unforgiven, I love incidents that rationalize just why space marine chapters would engage in no holds barred battle.

[Cyfax]

So far I did not get the idea that anyone, except the emperor most likely, exactly knows the secret. I remember the comment of Draigo also being more along the lines of 'what do you do with those prisoners you take to the rock, what if someone were to investigate' but not necessarily that these are the Fallen.

 

As to what would happen, the DA chapter would be destroyed (whether they will succeed is a different matter) as having had traitors amongst the ranks would, for the High Lords of Terra, be a sign of corrupted geneseed. And even if they would not be destroyed, the geneseed banks will most likely be purged which would destroy the ability of the Dark Angels to replenish as well as 'found' successor chapters.

[Kilofix]

Grey Knights themselves accepted Astartes from Traitor Legions during their founding right (Garro, Gaviel and co.)?

 

But I guess that's why that too is such a secret. As is the Blood Ravens' and Red Hunters' origins.

 

Maybe all to protect the 'over-reaction'of those less tolerant?

 

Anyway, so who would likely go after the DAs if they were outed? Some have suggested Wolves and Templars?

[Tanyr]

By this point I highly doubt there has been a chapter/legion/geneseed strain without its share of traitors. The Dark Angel's attract a significant amount of focus due to that being our central story, but there are no chapter's that have escaped it's touch. 

 

For chapter's they would send after us, I would say the Minotaurs as the current day "executioners", perhaps the red hunters as the inquisitions pet astartes. As the topic is corruption, i think it safe to say the hereticus would be out for blood so lets add the Sororitas and Templars.  I doubt they would send the wolves. Their shared status as a first founding chapter, the long rivalry between the two, and the wolves know all too well the corrupting influence of warp, having lost their only successor chapter to it after the Wolf Brothers were split off.

 

By calling in long owed oaths, the Astral Claws were able to create a multi-chapter force that knew they had the Administratum as an enemy. What could a First Founding chapter bring to bear? The Rock alone could stand off against a space marine fleet, add to that the DA's own fleet, that of their successors, those they summon from a blood debt, allied forgeworlds, rogue traders....the accusation would trigger a civil war. Nowhere near the scope of the HH, i think, but still significant enough to destabilize the Imperium's current order of battle, and thus bring it crashing down.

 

What would happen if others knew the secret? Likely nothing. It would have been front page materiel once upon a time, but now its all old hat.

[Pigshead]

I'm actually working on an allied force consisting of an Inquisitor and his retinue, who have been lost to the warp for a few centuries and have recently returned to real space with some vertically challenged guardsmen, and they know "something" about the Dark Angels, and are helping them achieve certain objectives for reasons of their own.

 

That is my own fluff for using squats, and for intertwining it with Dark Angels secrets...

[Ioldanach]

The way I see it, this is a case where the Dark Angels/Unforgiven have assumed that the worst would happen and they have become utterly obsessed with proving something that they never needed to prove. This has fuelled a paranoia that has resonated through the ages, feeding on itself until it has grown to consume the Unforgiven. The tragedy is that their obsession has twisted them, causing them to take ruthless actions that may be more damning than that which they are trying so desperately to hide (e.g., abandoning their allies in need in order to hunt the Fallen, killing those that should be their allies, etc.).

[JeffJedi]

Going back to numbers of Fallen, we know that some on Caliban stayed loyal. Did any in the fleet go traitor? It seems hard to believe that Luther would send recruits and not taint them in some way, even if he was in denial of it.

[shabbadoo]

the "half the legion" is just a figure someone pulled off their hat and it stuck.

there were those marines sent back to caliban, and its been referd by gw about several generations of recruits. the number could be big but certainly not half the legion, and most of them were wet behind the ears rookies. also we must not forget that there was fighting in caliban before Jonson returned, that would further decrease the number of fallen.

so, many? yes. half the legion? not even close

Right. Gav mentioned in one of the novels (might have been Angels of Darkness) that there are something like just over one hundred Fallen outstanding (it might have been significantly less).  I remember thinking "Wow. That's it?"  The universe is a large place, and the Inquisition isn't bigger than the combined Imperium's forces which can't take care of everything as it is.  Do people even realize how few Inquisitors there really are compared to the number of systems?  They might want people to believe that the Inquisition is everywhere, but it is not.