spu00sed Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I don't think he pulled a Dr. Who..... I've never seen them both in the same room. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Well that just proves it because we all know the Regenerations meet up for the reunion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 You've all made some excellent points. I guess my disdain for this development doesn't stem from a notion that the Emperor is "perfect" (I'll avoid the other p-word of h-word). My hatred for this development is because it removes the vagaries that were once left a mystery. Previously this was only said by a daemon. Psh right like I believe that. But now it's from HIS OWN AGENT, who spoke to him about it! Argh!! So, I'm left with three choices: Ignore this little bit by sticking my fingers in my ears and shouting "lalalalalala" whenever it comes up Assume that even the Emperor's own agents don't have the full story and that this particular one didn't know what she was talking about Believe that the Emperor went through the gate to kick ass and chew bubblegum, but bubblegum doesn't exist within the warp... At the end of the day I have a hard time swallowing that the Primarchs/Astartes were created with power somehow linked to the chaos gods. Forget how perfect or imperfect the Emperor is - this belies the notion that he had the knowledge and raw ability to do it himself. And that is what I wanted to believe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Actually I don't recall the agent saying what happened, just that she had been left behind to safeguard the gate. Horus was the only one who spoke his mind IIRC. And I think one thing tends to escape us is, how does one obtain power and knowledge? He had to get it from somewhere and the eldar don't like sharing, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 How do we gain knowledge now? Research, just in the way the Emperor did it. Granted, infused with his prodigious psychic powers, but still research. The Thunderwarriors were the first test of that research. The Primarchs and the Astartes were the final product. Hell, the Emperor's research labs have been mentioned more than once... However, I will have to review who said what. You may be right, in which case I may be able to disregard the words of the traitorous son. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpediem Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The other way to obtain power and knowledge is experience, and assuming He isn't lying about His age (and that's a big 'if'), the Emperor has plenty of that to go around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The other way to obtain power and knowledge is experience, and assuming He isn't lying about His age (and that's a big 'if'), the Emperor has plenty of that to go around.And experience requires interacting with people, things and entities. And the ability to spontaneously create life from something that defies the laws of nature just by existing isn't exactly something the world has experienced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I don't buy that, Kol. The Emperor didn't have to get this information from the Gods. I'm not sure where you are going with the whole "information has to come from somewhere" argument. It does have to come from somewhere, but almost always the answer to that is a breakthrough built upon another's work. Like, for instance, the extensive, highly advanced gene-crafters of Terra, coupled with the kind of breakthroughs that someone like the Emperor would bring to the table. Which we know he used and were integral with the project. To be clear, I am actually okay with the Gods being involved. This was always my own assumption on the case, and all this story arc does is confirm my own suspicions on the matter. I'm just not being sold on this argument that the Gods are the only possible way in which the information could originate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 True, that part he didn't have to get from the Gods. I ain't saying he bargained with them. But its possible he went to their realm to observe how they do certain things, like creating daemons and daemon princes, which are all supposed to have bits and shards from the god who created them/sponsored their ascendance and he then possibly used these observations to learn how to do it himself so he could create the Primarchs, all of whom are supposed(or at least heavily theorized/implied) to have a piece of his essence within. And thus "He stole from the Ruinious Powers". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
High MarshalGR Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 A savior who has no qualms about committing/ordering the deaths of men, women and children who did nothing wrong than refuse to bend the knee. A savior who also beat one of his sons into submission and let another's family be slaughtered just so he could gain two generals. This same savior also shamed one of his sons publicly for not conquering fast enough and spending too much time indoctrinating loyal subjects to be even more loyal to said savior. Antihero fits a lot better than "hero". Because that's what 40K and 30K is; shades of grey. The tragedy is that at one time, they almost tipped the scales to being black and white. But Humanity had been stained with too much bloodshed and so it slipped from its lofty perch and now it is simply waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel to be extinguished as it can no longer reach for what might have been its salvation. EDIT: This is just my take on it though and it should have no binding on anyone else. I like the points made here. Don't forget how he denied Angron of the path he chose for himself, teleported him away against his will and demanded him to obey the man who stole the moment his honour led him to, he let many of his DNA "sons" to go overboard on many instances and didn't actually promote their unity as brothers and fails to realise he let them completely naked against his nemesis while he could have assumed they would target his own sons to temp them away (and their Legions alongside). This thread is really interesting in my opinion, and I would like to add something: Emperor is hated by the Chaos Gods because he represents Order I believe. Not "good", and the Chaos Gods don't necessarily represent "evil" (as those ideas are generally viewed). There are instances of white and black, but grey is indeed dominant in more than enough instances, as it is in real life too. Things aren't always as they seem to begin with. EDIT: Of course, this is merely a viewpoint and not the universal truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The other thing is that 'Warp power is neutral. I mean all Psykers run off 'Warp power and the Emperor is no different. 'Tricking and stealing' 'Warp power from Chaos is not the same as working for Chaos. On a separate but related note, I wonder how Fabius' Primogenitor work figures into this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 No, Warp Power is NOT neutral. It will corrupt and kill the wielder any chance it gets, and only the best trained and strongest of will can use it without falling into the darkness. It took the souls of the eldar race to wake the Prince of Dark Pleasures. It made Magnus the Red from a king into a slave. And to be a psyker is to feel its touch upon your soul always. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The warp was once neutral, before the war in heaven. It was only after this war that the dark gods and other nasties started making it a bad place to be. I like to think that the master (of mankind) entered the warp rift to find ways of infusing souls into his creations. Remember in 40k souls exist and they end up in the warp when you die. Without souls the primarchs would have been useless. Of course he needed ways of making souls as well, which could be a trick he stole from the dark gods and would explain how his sons are aspects of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3764824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 No, Warp Power is NOT neutral. It will corrupt and kill the wielder any chance it gets, and only the best trained and strongest of will can use it without falling into the darkness. It took the souls of the eldar race to wake the Prince of Dark Pleasures. It made Magnus the Red from a king into a slave. And to be a psyker is to feel its touch upon your soul always. But even before this revelation in Vengeful Spirit, we all accepted that the Emperor sanctioned Navigators, Warp Travel, etc. So either we consider 'Warp power' neutral, or the Emperor was already 'compromising' early on for the sake of galactic conquest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3765017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 So we either accept that the Warp is neutral, or we accept that something that has always been the case, is the case? Well, gee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3765038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilmittens Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Actually I don't recall the agent saying what happened, just that she had been left behind to safeguard the gate. Horus was the only one who spoke his mind IIRC. And I think one thing tends to escape us is, how does one obtain power and knowledge? He had to get it from somewhere and the eldar don't like sharingI agreed Kol. See, in Vengeful Spirit, we only see Horus and his actions via demon while on the other side. We do not know what the Emperor did. I felt there were hints that he went there, and instead of doing what Horus did a d walking the 8-fold path, he took the information from Chaos. No deals, no bargains...just him taking what he needed form the Chaos gods. A bad ass. Since the warp is powered by emotions and what not, then I can see some neutral power being there. Just the stronger ones tend to be the stronger emotions. Not enough to create a neutral god, but enough to power some stuff.?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3765045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I like the idea that the Emperor made a devils deal and it went wrong. For the devils. They thought they were ensnaring a powerful creature when really they just empowered him further. He then becomes their greatest threat. So they need to stop him,and they strike at the moment his attention is elsewhere. I see him as an avatar of humanity - the perfect example of all our traits, good and bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3765348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I hope we get a novella that goes into more detail about Horus' trip through the breach, what he saw and what he learned about the Big E's trip too. As what we read in VS was the classic "show, don't tell" that BL love to employ Kinda like how Aurelian furthers the plot of The First Heretic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3766704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Also there is the question over who owns knowledge and power. The Big 4 may well believe that all souls and all warp powers are theirs to use as their playthings. They might regard any attempt to take warp power and imbue it into the Primarchs as "theft". The Emperor could well be justified in believing that Chaos and Daemons are an aberration of the way the warp is supposed to be. That does not mean the Emperor necessarily made some Faustian pact and then reneged on it. If there was a god of the sun, I imagine he would think that solar electricity was "stealing". Even with what has been stated in First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit, I think there is still an awful lot left unknown. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3953817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 But the Emperor isn't the anti hero. He's the saviour of mankind. He imposes his values upon mankind. The Emperor is a dominator If he is a saviour...he is a deeply, deeply flawed saviour Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3954080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I was giving my personal preference in terms of what I'd rather the Emperor be. I'd rather him be a saviour, a boon to mankind. Rather than just another dictator. I'd rather things were done in his name, but not with his wishes. I'd rather him, if he has any awareness at all, be silently screaming as he sees what the Imperium has become. Otherwise big whoop he got taken down. But I've said all this before, just what I'd rather it be (and how I have it in MY world) rather than the real 'truth'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3954090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 But the Emperor isn't the anti hero. He's the saviour of mankind. He imposes his values upon mankind. The Emperor is a dominator If he is a saviour...he is a deeply, deeply flawed saviour The Emperor is human after all, therefore, prone to mistakes/flaws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3954096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 ........... Holy Threadomancy Batman! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3954196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Must have made a deal with Tzeench to bring this thread back. Anyway, as I read it, the Emperor made a deal with the four Chaos gods for an extra "power up" and their acquiescence in allowing him to create the Primarchs, who are, after all, potent with Warp Power. It's long been hinted that the Emperor made some sort of deal. VS just adds a little more detail. And who cheated who, exactly? The Chaos gods screwed with the infant primarchs almost immediately. I suspect both sides intended to stab each other in the back at the first opportunity. I speculate that the Emperor is kinda a jerk _precisell because_ he is the paragon of humanity, a race that has procured far more warlords than Ghandis. He is still the savior of humanity, because in a grim dark universe, he's the only hope we have of a future as an independent, psychic species free of the taint of Chaos. Doesn't mean his reign would be much fun for xenos or even the human peasants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294533-emperor-in-vengeful-spirit-spoilers/page/2/#findComment-3960202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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