What is your expectation of Lion El Jonson from FW?

[HaSY]

1. If face duelling with Curze and he won, does this mean Lion have higher WS than Curze?

2. Depiction of Lion in novel did not show that he have ranged weapon (if I am not mistaken) but I think FW might give Lion some cool archaeotech weaponry.

3. Hope that Lion may have choices in melee weaponry especially  Lion Sword or Hope and Despair. 

4. He can have psychic shield or force shield as seen in the novella Lion. Supposedly he still have his Lion Helm which might have force field akin to Iron Halo.

5. Gonna have specific duelling and challenge rules I hope. 

6. Interestingly, I saw Lion as another variant of Fulgrim aka swordsman type and can be adaptable as well. 

7. I am not sure what buffs Lion can bring to Dark Angels Legion. 

What's your take?

[Balthamal]

To go on the list you've compiled above:

 

1 ) I'd see him sporting a WS of at least 7, more than likely 8/9 or with a buff in challenges to reflect his superiority whilst dueling.

 

2) He'll have some form of ranged attack, likely drawn from the estoric armoury of I Legion

 

3) I'd be surprised if he's given a choice in weaponry. Whilst some like Angron and Horus have multiple, it's more a choice which they'll use in combat rather than be equiped with but given there's the option to equip Perturabo with Forgebreaker, don't rule it out.

 

4) All the Primarchs get invul saves so expect a 4+ at least, probably increased in combat/challenges. As for a specific psyker defence, maybe.

 

5) Defo. I'd expect the instant death rule and maybe something along the lines of every attack missed allows him to parry to reflect his swordsmanship

 

6) As mentioned above, he's supposedly one of the more accomplished warriors amongst the Primarchs

 

7) Army wide buffs, I'd probably lean towards his tactical acuity. It's noted in a few novels that his grasp of the tactical flow of battle was exceptional and he was also able to adapt well due to having considering all possibilities coldly before committing to a course of action.

 

Model-wise, speaking to a couple of the sculptors, the overall feel is one of cold nobility

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, my thing about 1.)is that the first time round, the Lion sucker punched Curze and had to leave the battlefield with his throat cut after being strangled. The second time round, the Lion simply did a better job of sucker punching. The third time round the Lion had Guilliman as backup and they had to leave to another planet to avoid being killed. Three unfair fights and only one victory. Doesn't sound so good that way.

 

Basically, what the Primarchs do to each other in the background is not supposed to be reflected in the sats as there is no structured ranking of "who's better than who". Its constantly fluid and ever changing.

 

That said, I would expect him to have a pretty decent WS not because he beat Curze one time, but because he is a trained swordsman in who knows how many different styles of fighting with a blade and he's used those skills time and time again to face down opponents like the Calibanite Lion, other Knights, daemons, countless xenos and even Curze, who could be said to be the most efficient killer amongst the Legions.

[Leif Bearclaw]

1. While there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to Primarch stats (Pertuarbo and Dorn have WS8 yet Ferrus and Corax are only 7), I highly doubt Jonson will have a higher WS than Curze. That would give him WS9, higher than Horus, and equal only to Angron, which would be anomalous imo.

 

2. Of course they'll give him a gun of some sort. Can't really predict what though, as it could be anything form a MC version of an extant gun, like Angron, Fulgrim and Alpharius got, to a unique something akin to Mortarion's Lantern.

 

3. Nah,he'll get a fancy AP2 sword, probably with one or two special rules.

 

4. 4++ is practically a given, probably not a 3++ though, they've generally been confined to 'endurance' themed Primarch's, whereas the Lion is more offensively themed as far as I'm aware. Fulgrim already has the 'boost to 3++ in combat' rule, so they're unlikely to rehash that rule. Psychic defence is more likely to go to Russ and Magnus imo, rather than Jonson.

 

5. Maybe,depends on the breakdown of special rules, if his sword has many rules, he's unlikely to get many more in challenges.

 

6.There's not really a shortage of 'sword' Primarchs, Fulgrim, Jonson, Khan, Dorn, Russ, Sanguinius, all used swords, and several of them are noted as being amonst the most dangerous of Primarchs. Apart from the same weapon choice, I don't see a massive similarity between Jonson and Fulgrim tbh..

 

7. Primarch specific buffs will entirley depend on what Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) does. For the time being, who knows?

[Fire Golem]

Still don't get why Corax is only WS7...

 

I don't know much about the Lion so will be interesting to see his rules. He's like a master strategist right, so probably stuff to buff the army or get them in a better position.

 

That said, they'd have to do something pretty special to make me actually like the Lion and the Dark Angels...

[depthcharge12]

I think that the Lion should get a special sucker punch rule called the Lions Leap or something to represent that.

 

 

IMHO it should be that when the Lion charges, he gets D3 hammer of wrath attacks with his sword profile. Other then that his rules might be tricky.

 

 

Maybe he'll get that combi-plas as a ranged weapon that shoots the blast template.

[Candleshoes]

Visually?

 

I hope he is wearing his simple banded crown. That one thing would make me weep like a child.

[Kilofix]

I don't think I've seen Lion depicted visually, ever - so I'm anxiously waiting to see him sculpted. But if there is such - please point me to it - thanks!

[Millicant]

Visually?

 

I hope he is wearing his simple banded crown. That one thing would make me weep like a child.

"By such simple crowns were the knight-lords of Caliban once known." Savage Weapons by ADB

 

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

 

As far as sucker-punch? Psh not a chance. He even apologizes for "such a dishonourable blow." But a point had to be proven:

 

Loyalty is its own reward.

[Sevatar]

WS8,  but may raise his by one in challenges/lower his opponrnts. 

[Slips]

Still don't get why Corax is only WS7...

 

I don't know much about the Lion so will be interesting to see his rules. He's like a master strategist right, so probably stuff to buff the army or get them in a better position.

 

That said, they'd have to do something pretty special to make me actually like the Lion and the Dark Angels...

It's because his weapons would cause Blind. While not as powerful of a rule in 7th its still pretty good when facing off against other multi-wound characters.

[Fire Golem]

 

Still don't get why Corax is only WS7...

I don't know much about the Lion so will be interesting to see his rules. He's like a master strategist right, so probably stuff to buff the army or get them in a better position.

That said, they'd have to do something pretty special to make me actually like the Lion and the Dark Angels...

 

It's because his weapons would cause Blind. While not as powerful of a rule in 7th its still pretty good when facing off against other multi-wound characters.

Ahh yeah I forgot he caused Blind.

[Komrk]

 

 

Still don't get why Corax is only WS7...

I don't know much about the Lion so will be interesting to see his rules. He's like a master strategist right, so probably stuff to buff the army or get them in a better position.

That said, they'd have to do something pretty special to make me actually like the Lion and the Dark Angels...

It's because his weapons would cause Blind. While not as powerful of a rule in 7th its still pretty good when facing off against other multi-wound characters.

Ahh yeah I forgot he caused Blind.

 

 

It's pretty hard to get off against other primarchs especially now that it got nerfed hard in 7th with it only being 1 roll instead of 1 for each hit (or was it wound? either way it's now as good as useless)

[Lucien Eilam]

Eh, my thing about 1.)is that the first time round, the Lion sucker punched Curze and had to leave the battlefield with his throat cut after being strangled. The second time round, the Lion simply did a better job of sucker punching. The third time round the Lion had Guilliman as backup and they had to leave to another planet to avoid being killed. Three unfair fights and only one victory. Doesn't sound so good that way.

 

Their duel on the Invincible Reason is explicitly described as a fair fight, that Curze ends up running from:

 

Here, for the first time, his father was locked in a fair fight. No low blows to begin with. No assaulting a weakened or demoralised foe. No attacking from surprise, with the gravity of a devastating ambush.

 

The Lion’s movements were clinical, a ruthless economy of muscle and motion, each thrust and parry executed to perfection without the audacity of dramatic flair. Curze’s jerked-string assault was a flailing of clawed hands, each potential embrace blocking the long blade one moment, and being turned aside by it the next.

 

[…]

 

He’d turned from the Lion in that moment, turned from the battle… and fled.

Curze, who could be said to be the most efficient killer amongst the Legions.

 

I'd say there's a strong case for him being the least efficient. Here, for example, the Lion is "clinical" while Curze "flails".

 

And more generally, Primarchs like the Lion, Guilliman, Dorn - they'll just kill you, in the most pragmatic, economical way. No hard feelings, no drama. That's efficiency. Curze is a murderer. He'll make the extra effort to kill you in a horrifying, painful way, calculated to strike terror in your comrades. He's the only Primarch who routinely expends energy on turning every kill into a horrifying example.

[Fire Golem]

 

 

 

Still don't get why Corax is only WS7...

I don't know much about the Lion so will be interesting to see his rules. He's like a master strategist right, so probably stuff to buff the army or get them in a better position.

That said, they'd have to do something pretty special to make me actually like the Lion and the Dark Angels...

 

It's because his weapons would cause Blind. While not as powerful of a rule in 7th its still pretty good when facing off against other multi-wound characters.

Ahh yeah I forgot he caused Blind.

 

It's pretty hard to get off against other primarchs especially now that it got nerfed hard in 7th with it only being 1 roll instead of 1 for each hit (or was it wound? either way it's now as good as useless)

Well that sucks, petition to swap blind for WS8?

[Komrk]

 

 

 

 

Still don't get why Corax is only WS7...

I don't know much about the Lion so will be interesting to see his rules. He's like a master strategist right, so probably stuff to buff the army or get them in a better position.

That said, they'd have to do something pretty special to make me actually like the Lion and the Dark Angels...

It's because his weapons would cause Blind. While not as powerful of a rule in 7th its still pretty good when facing off against other multi-wound characters.

Ahh yeah I forgot he caused Blind.

 

It's pretty hard to get off against other primarchs especially now that it got nerfed hard in 7th with it only being 1 roll instead of 1 for each hit (or was it wound? either way it's now as good as useless)

Well that sucks, petition to swap blind for WS8?

 

 

and it made the Darkwing's reduced strength for blind a ton less useful as well

[Kol Saresk]

 

Eh, my thing about 1.)is that the first time round, the Lion sucker punched Curze and had to leave the battlefield with his throat cut after being strangled. The second time round, the Lion simply did a better job of sucker punching. The third time round the Lion had Guilliman as backup and they had to leave to another planet to avoid being killed. Three unfair fights and only one victory. Doesn't sound so good that way.

Their duel on the Invincible Reason is explicitly described as a fair fight, that Curze ends up running from:

Here, for the first time, his father was locked in a fair fight. No low blows to begin with. No assaulting a weakened or demoralised foe. No attacking from surprise, with the gravity of a devastating ambush.

 

The Lion’s movements were clinical, a ruthless economy of muscle and motion, each thrust and parry executed to perfection without the audacity of dramatic flair. Curze’s jerked-string assault was a flailing of clawed hands, each potential embrace blocking the long blade one moment, and being turned aside by it the next.

 

[…]

 

He’d turned from the Lion in that moment, turned from the battle… and fled.

I forgot about that fight. But to add context, it might have been best to leave the part in the quote that he ran not because he was losing, but because his sons were dying and it was his fault because he dragged them into it and he couldn't deal with it.

 

But like I said, the Lion did get in one solid victory.

 

My point was that the Lion's WS should be decided by whether or not he can use a sword and how well he can use it, not because he got one victory, two draws and a bloody nose against one specific Primarch.

 

And I can guarantee that if he has a higher WS, it won't because of that fight. It'll be because Forgeworld took into account his formal training, constant practice and constant use of swordfighting.

 

 

Curze, who could be said to be the most efficient killer amongst the Legions.

I'd say there's a strong case for him being the least efficient. Here, for example, the Lion is "clinical" while Curze "flails".

 

And more generally, Primarchs like the Lion, Guilliman, Dorn - they'll just kill you, in the most pragmatic, economical way. No hard feelings, no drama. That's efficiency. Curze is a murderer. He'll make the extra effort to kill you in a horrifying, painful way, calculated to strike terror in your comrades. He's the only Primarch who routinely expends energy on turning every kill into a horrifying example.

I don't see the disagreement. I said "killer", not "fighter". Yes, he is a sadist. Yes, he purposefully takes a while to kill his victims when he wants to. Yet he was the one who rampaged through an entire city. He was the one who wiped out an entire squad of Space Marines in three blinks flat.

 

Efficiency is how fast and well you can do something, not how pragmatic and realistic you can do it. Curze knows how to kill, period. He's not a fighter, a swordsman, a gunman or anything special. He's a killer. Plain and simple.

[Saphrael]

The 'my daddy could kick your daddy's ass' debates are so tiresome and the Curze vs. Lion one is probably the most played out of all of them, can we keep it on topic?

 

1. Primarchs seem to come to two general formats/statlines, skilled (Fulgrim, Curze) or physical (Manus, Vulkan) with slight variations on each. The Lion undeniable falls into the former category and I see no reason for him to have a wildly different statline from Curze, except maybe a lower Initiative. Though one of the earliest bits of fluff about the Lion, the original 'Lion and the Wolf' story said that Russ and Jonson were evenly matched, despite Russ being slightly stronger and Jonson being slightly faster. There's no way Jonson should have the same WS as Angron, but he's known to be a skilled swordsman so WS8 is probably the sweet spot. Give him some rules in challenges (as already discussed) to reflect being an accomplished duellist.

 

2. I imagine either a really beefed archeotech pistol, or some variation of a plasma combi weapon.

 

3. Disagree on having a choice. He needs to have the Lion Sword. He's one of the primarchs who had a famous weapon before the Black Library started tackling the Heresy and the sword is all over DA iconography. Maybe give him different fighting stances similar to Fulgrim, but he needs his sword. I'd like to see him striding forth with his sword raised in salute, but I don't think that'll happen.

 

4. I'd wager on seeing the 4++ for the squad rules the Lion Helm has in 40k. That'd provide some cool continuity and would be really powerful in 30k. No special psychic defences, as has been said, that'll be Russ or Magnus.

 

5. Maybe. But a lot of characters already have challenge only rules, maybe they could do something different for him to make him stand out.

 

6. As above.

 

7. I think the Lion should be a really strong buff primarch. He should be a beatstick, but that shouldn't be his primary focus (leave that to Russ/Khan). I see him in a category like Guilliman where he has an emphasise on buffing his troops. Maybe you can redeploy D3 units? Or reroll reserve and outflank rolls? Something to provide reliability to your plans, because that's what Jonson's tactical and strategic brilliance was about.

[Kol Saresk]

Funnily enough, it is on topic as the whole point of point number 1 is whether or not the "My daddy can beat your daddy" is what will determine the Lion's stats. I'm saying it won't strictly because the score "1 win, two draw and one loss" apply to both(that's right, you heard me, both) the Lion and Curze.

 

Is it a ridiculous argument? Yes. That's why I've been trying to shoot it down and point out it should be the Lion's background in arms that should determine his WS, not his history with Curze.

 

I should also point out that his statline shouldn't reflect just a duelist, but a huntsman as well. After all, this is the Primarch who grew up hunting the Great Beasts of Caliban.

[Saphrael]

I wasn't having a go at you Kol, just saying the point of this thread isn't a discussion over who between Curze and the Lion is a better fighter. The point of number 1 within the context of this thread was obviously to determine the appropriate WS of the Lion, not to argue over whether or not he's a better fighter than Curze because of some fights they've had in the novels.

 

How do you make a staline reflect being a hunter? If anything that'd be in the special rules section. But you've only got so many special rules per character and that's hardly the defining characteristic of the Lion, especially compared to his reputation as a brilliant tactician and strategist.

[Kol Saresk]

Well I think i saw somewhere that someone suggested the Lion have a lower initiative. I think we should see the Lion with a high, or at least pretty dang decent initiative. Strength should be okay. WS should be 7 or 8, to show his preference for wetwork, but not the specialization someone like Angron has. His BS should leaning to the good side of average since Caliban did have bolt weaponry an I don't the Lion never took advantage of them.

 

As for special rules, ain't got a clue.

 

I think the stats should reflect his physical attributes, such as being a huntsman and a bit of his swordsmanship. And then we can use the special rules to show off his dueling and strategizing.

[Saphrael]

Being a hunstmen isn't a physical attribute, it's a skillset. So I ask again, how would you represent being a huntsmen in his statline? Physicality is the purview of the statline (most notably S, T, W & I) which the Lion is average amongst the primachs, whereas skills are typically represented in special rules (other than WS, BS and maybe A) where the Lion is noted as being better than average amongst the primarchs.
 

The Lion is not noted amongst his brethren for his physicality, but is known for his skill at arms, which is why I would argue he should have the exact statline of Curze, i.e. use the 'skilled'  primarch archetype. It was me who said he could maybe have a lower I than Curze, but that was just as a point of differentiation. Realisitically there probably isn't much seperating them on the speed front.

[Millicant]

I'd like to see him striding forth with his sword raised in salute, but I don't think that'll happen.

 

 

That is exactly how I envision him too.  Sword up in salute, epitomizing the nobility of his knightly stature.  Just awesome.  

[Saphrael]

 

 

 

That is exactly how I envision him too.  Sword up in salute, epitomizing the nobility of his knightly stature.  Just awesome.  

 

 

Yup, the Lion at his quintessential best. The Knight Lord of Caliban.

 

I see the pose similar to the Emperor's Champion figure. Left leg stepping forward, left arm swept back with the pistol/gun pointing at the ground and right arm raised up with his sword in front of his face/chest and huge broadsword pointing to the sky. Add silver circlet crown, robes and gothic awesomeness to taste.

[Marshal Rohr]

Primarchs don't come in just skilled or physical. It's more of a three way split. You've got commanders, fighters, and tanks. Most mix 2 of those to some degree. Dorn is more commander than any of the other Primarchs. Perturabo is a fighter and tank. Vulkan is a tank. Ferrus is a commander and fighter. Horus is a commander and fighter. Etc.