Saphrael Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 That might be the axes FW use from an overall design perspective, but from a statline perspective there are really only two numbers available for each characteristic. There are obviously exceptions in Angron's higher WS & A, Fulgrim's higher I, Mortarion's higher W and Lorgar being overall sub-par. Typically speaking those primarchs who have elevated physical stats (S, T, W) don't have elevated skills stats (WS, BS). Horus and Perturabo being the exceptions. I like how it's working out so far, with the primarchs feeling close to each other but also varied. I'm just saying that within the paradigm of physical stats or skill stats, the Lion should receive the bump to the latter. 'Commander' special rules are a completely different basket alltogether, and it's probably beyond argument that the Lion is a commander/fighter, using your paradigm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I guess I could've laid that out better, the point I was trying to make is that the Lion would fall into the fighter commander category. I have a chart I made somewhere. I'll try to find it real quick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Being a hunstmen isn't a physical attribute, it's a skillset. So I ask again, how would you represent being a huntsmen in his statline? Physicality is the purview of the statline (most notably S, T, W & I) which the Lion is average amongst the primachs, whereas skills are typically represented in special rules (other than WS, BS and maybe A) where the Lion is noted as being better than average amongst the primarchs. The Lion is not noted amongst his brethren for his physicality, but is known for his skill at arms, which is why I would argue he should have the exact statline of Curze, i.e. use the 'skilled' primarch archetype. It was me who said he could maybe have a lower I than Curze, but that was just as a point of differentiation. Realisitically there probably isn't much seperating them on the speed front. Its a skillset supported by physical attributes. So, my post is the answer to your question. That's my answer, my final answer an my only answer. If it ain't the answer you're looking for, then I'm sorry. It's the one I have. Perhaps I should explain myself better. Being a huntsman/swordsman requires certain physical abilities. You have to be proficient with your weapon of choice(WS/BS). You also have to be light on your feet, usually requiring good agility(Initiative). That's why I believe things like being a huntsman and swordsman have an effect on his statline while being a strategist and a duelist have an effect on his USRs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Categories: Commander, Fighter, Tank. Levels: One of the traits is the primary characteristic, with the other two coming in supporting roles. Listed as such - Primarch: Primary Characteristic/Secondary Characteristic Horus: Fighter/Commander. Heavy rules for personal combat and buffing deadliness of units in the armies combat abilities. God of Battle makes him an able commander, but pales compared to his weapons rules and stats. Angron: Fighter One of the few pure characters, Angron's rules are entirely dedicated to fighting. Fulgrim: Fighter/Commander (case can be made for just Fighter) Fulgrim's rules revolve around his close combat skill, but his rule allowing the selection of a warlord trait could allow the player to select a 'command' trait from the list boosting his Commander abilities. The Emperor's Children are one of the legions whose special rules and rite of war allow for a true to fluff play style without the Primarch. Mortarion: Tank/Fighter Mortarion's Preternatural Resilience rule and stat line place him firmly as primarily a tank, because his weapon rules slow down his killing potential, leaving him open to damage before he strikes. His Shadow rule and the deadliness (if slowness) of his weapons make fighting his secondary characteristic. Ferrus Manus: Fighter/Tank The Carapace and Forge Breaker are great weapons and his stats are good for combat. While the Sire rule and Master of Mechanisms boost the army, he is a relatively weak commander, but his stats and war gear make him very resilient. Konrad Kurze: Fighter All of Kurze's rules and abilities boost his personal killing ability, while his Sire rule just makes his men scarier. Vulkan: Tank/Commander The case can be made that Vulkan is an even break between all 3, since his Sire rule boosts leadership, his armor and war gear are deadly and protective, and his weapons is a murder machine. Lorgar: Commander/Fighter Lorgar is easily a Commander primarily, since most of his abilities boost his men's capabilities. Illuminarium doesn't have the sheer nastiness of Dawnbringer or Forgebreaker, but is still killy enough for big blobs of tacticals. Lorgar Transcended becomes a better Fighter/Commander with his suite of psychic abilities. Perturabo: Fighter/Tank Pert. like Vulkan, makes the case for all 3. His Strategist rule, Precision Bombardment, the Logos, and Forge Breaker, plus his stats, mean that any Iron Warriors army with him in it will be very deadly. Alpharius: Fighter/Commander Someone at Forge World wanted to make Alpharius really scary in combat and gave him lots of goodies to get there. His Sire rule boosts everyone with preferred enemy, and his weapons are some of the better ones out there. Dorn: Commander/Tank Dorn comes into his own defending places (as he should), boosts assault results of his army, and has a really good set of armor (and a personal Thunderhawk). His weapons and stats preclude him from being a great fighter. Corax: Fighter/Commander Obviously Corax is a good fighter with his Panoply, Pinions, and Fighting Stlye. His armor is decent and messes with enemy deep strike. His commander abilities allow his men to run 6 at all times, which makes it very useful for a drop pod army. That being the ones we know, the upcoming Primarchs. Guilliman: Commander/Fighter The Lion: Fighter/Commander The Khan: Fighter Sanguinius: Fighter/Commander Leman Russ: Fighter/Tank Magnus:Commander/Fighter but those are just my predictions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Its a skillset supported by physical attributes. So, my pist is the answer to your question. That's my answer, my final answer an my only answer. If it ain't the answer you're looking for, then I'm sorry. It's the one I have. Gee, that's a good response All direct combat related skillsets are supported by physical attributes. You're saying you'd modify his statline to reflect him being a huntsmen, I'm asking how? Increased WS? Initiative? Attacks? What stat feels like 'huntsmen' to you? I'd argue it's none of them and if you wanted to represent him being a hunstmen it'd be a special rule like: Surprise Assault: The Lion grew up hunting in the deepest wilds of the death forests of Caliban, to represent his preternatural instincts and ability to track and surprise prey he has the Acute Senses special rule. Or whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I don't know what you're reading exactly. I said how I thought it would be reflected in his statline. Nevermind. Marshal has better ideas on it anyway and you seem to be listening to him so I'm going to since I ain't being listened to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Acute sense would be all that's needed for the huntsmen motif. They can't go around messing with stats like initiative without stepping on the balance of other Primarchs. Initiative should be the realm of Fulgrim, because historically that's tied to the MoS. Mortarions got more wounds because T8 would step on others toes. If FW wrote rules for the Primarchs reflecting the interpretations by BL, it would be the most schizophrenic bass ackwards rules ever written. Guilliman would curb stomp Horus, Magnus would out psyker the Emperor, and Vulkan would win all his fights because he never tried before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I should apologize. I'm just not a very big fan of having to repeat myself. Especially when the poster I am repeating myself to has obviously read my post and then responds to it in a way that, to me, suggests they're ignoring it because it isn't the answer they're looking for. I've given my opinion on how I think his stats should be affected. Twice. Now will be three times. According to Marshal's little chart, the Lion fits in the Fighter category. So my suggestions for WS and I fit with Marshal's chart, even if my reasoning is different. That is my answer, my final answer and my only answer. I believe his physical capabilities as a swordsman should be reflected in his WS and his physical abilities as a huntsman should be reflected in his I. As I said, I don't have a mind for making rules and such. Since Marshal does and he also has it planned out, I'll leave the two of you to settle it out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Similar to if not the same as Curze. Even the same would be fine. As they are relatively equal as portrayed with some "minor" differences in description. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanyr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 A head swap for the Lion Helm would be wonderful. It's as iconic a piece of wargear as anything else in W40K, so the option for it should be on the table. Between the two, the simple crown would get my vote as well. For special rules, if we go by the Lion Helm, and Cypher's sword ( which is presumed to be the Lion's Sword ), he would have 4++ to his unit ( not bad, invulnerable saves of that level are considerably rarer in 30k to my knowledge ), eternal warrior ( pointless due to his primarch skill ), and shrouded ( while not worthless, it seems...unsuitable ). The helm would be wonderful, giving him something that isn't easy to come by, but the sword ( if it is indeed the Lion Sword ) should be reworked. Azrael's skill, "Rites of Battle" allows all Dark Angels to use his leadership instead of their own. In 30k, while not terribly flashy, it would be a significant boon in the absence of ATSKNF. While I wouldn't exactly hate being the "stubborn" marines once again, I wont complain if the Dark Angel's before the fall of Caliban were as night and day to the 40k variant. More knights, less monks. The Lion is portrayed as being on par with Curze and Russ when it comes to bladework. Both capable fighters, whether by established rules and fluff. He's considered one of the finest general's even among the primarchs, with more victories than any save Horus. If we went by the fluff, he would probably be the most terrifying of the loyalist primarchs, since the tabletop doesn't give a damn that he wasn't the most beloved or trusted of the lot. If I had to choose. I would say make him a beatstick. The 1st Legion are not the Dark Angels of 40k, they remember what the forests of Caliban were like as they rode through them to hunt the great beasts that stalked its depths. I want to play a Dark Angel army that makes it clear that my chapter has changed from how my Primarch envisioned it, how much we've failed the Emperor's expectations, and how far we've fallen since our beginnings, and Lion el'Jonson will be leading it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I've given my opinion on how I think his stats should be affected. Twice. No you hadn't. I had asked the direct question twice, and this is the first time you explicitely answered it: I believe his physical capabilities as a swordsman should be reflected in his WS and his physical abilities as a huntsman should be reflected in his I. Never before in this thread have you distinguished which stat tweaks should reflect his huntsmen motif. Anyway, now that your surliness and my stubbornness have dragged this part of the conversation out longer than it needed to we can probably move on. Acute sense would be all that's needed for the huntsmen motif. They can't go around messing with stats like initiative without stepping on the balance of other Primarchs. Initiative should be the realm of Fulgrim, because historically that's tied to the MoS. Mortarions got more wounds because T8 would step on others toes. I agree, don't want to tweak the stats too much. It is an interesting question over what his Initiative should be though. Obviously Fulgrim is in a class of his own on 8, but there's Corax and Curze with above primarch average I, and maybe the Lion should be there, but I'm not sure. I'd also consider the Lion to be a Commander/Fighter not a Figher/Commander. In the novels he's emerged as a upper echelon fighter, but I'd say the more defining characteristic of him is his cold brilliance. That's always been there. Sure he might go toe-to-toe with other fighty primarchs (Curze, Russ) and impress Guilliman with his fighting speed/ability (Unremembered Empire), but surely he's more renowned as being a tactical/strategic genius. He was up for Warmaster and only lost it because of his personality preventing him from being a coalition builder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Personally, I think the Lion should be in a class of his own (maybe Guilliman could come in second), with army wide rules buffs. I feel like, when a player takes the Lion, the army should be able to shift its strategy at will to the opponent (not in the preferred enemy: opponent way). If your enemy is tank heavy, the Lion gives army wide wrecker and tanks hunters. If the enemy is a footslogger, the Dark Angels get a boost at wound production, etc. Obviously, it would need to be balanced, but at the same time the Dark Angels are supposed to be 'others' to the legions, and it makes sense that the Lion would be adept at exploiting his brothers weaknesses. This should come at the cost of people not trusting them for allies purposes etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How about giving him Hammer of Wrath that uses full weapon stats? Instead of shoulder blocking it would show him striking first. Also the Lion has been seen to strike/kill in the blink of an eye at the start of the fight (ask Russ too.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How about giving him Hammer of Wrath that uses full weapon stats? Instead of shoulder blocking it would show him striking first. Also the Lion has been seen to strike/kill in the blink of an eye at the start of the fight (ask Russ too.) Lol that's been my idea, see above ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How about giving him Hammer of Wrath that uses full weapon stats? Instead of shoulder blocking it would show him striking first. Also the Lion has been seen to strike/kill in the blink of an eye at the start of the fight (ask Russ too.) Getting to use his full stats/weapons for HoW would represent him getting the first hit in pretty well, but it'll also damn us to forever hearing about our sucker punching primarch (which I'm completely sick of already). I also associate a better HoW with a stronger charge, not a quicker one (though I recognise that isn't necessarily how it work mechanically). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think the Lion sucker punching Kurze was so out of character that creating a rule for it would cheapen the significance of the punch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think the Lion sucker punching Kurze was so out of character that creating a rule for it would cheapen the significance of the punch. I agree completely. That's probably my one complaint on A D-B's take on the Lion in Savage Weapons, that the 'dishonourable blow' cemented his reputation as a sucker puncher given the Space Wolve's interpretation of the two fights with Russ. I've also never fully understood why Lion stabbed Curze like that, but that's a seperate issue. That said, I think the insinuation was that this rule isn't about representing his sucker punching abilities, more his quickness. However, as I said earlier, I think there will still be jokes at his expense for being a sucker puncher and having a rule like this will only propagate those jokes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I agree. Savage Weapons was near perfect. Written wise it was well done. It was just out of character IMO. I felt if he could put it in his gut than not why a head or take a leg. Maybe it was the Primarch equivalent of slapping someone across the face with a glove. Simpsons: I challenge you to a duel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How about giving him Hammer of Wrath that uses full weapon stats? Instead of shoulder blocking it would show him striking first. Also the Lion has been seen to strike/kill in the blink of an eye at the start of the fight (ask Russ too.) Getting to use his full stats/weapons for HoW would represent him getting the first hit in pretty well, but it'll also damn us to forever hearing about our sucker punching primarch (which I'm completely sick of already). I also associate a better HoW with a stronger charge, not a quicker one (though I recognise that isn't necessarily how it work mechanically). The rule is not to represent that sucker punch, but the fact that the Lion moves incredibly quick at times that even other primarchs don't see coming. Kind of like an opening blow that shows that you shouldn't be messing with the Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The "problem" if it can called that, is the Lion is an extremely accomplished swordsman/hunter/fighter (of course, aren't all the primarchs?), while also being hailed as a brilliant, even genius tactician and strategist - as Saphrael mentioned: second only to Horus. This is offset by his deep personality flaws, which round him out as a character. However, personality doesn't typically get represented in-game. The reason this is a "problem" is that his rules in-game to match this reputation would be the source of much weeping and gnashing of teeth for fans of other primarchs. Simple stats are only capable of representing the things which he is renowned for: strategic brilliance and superb swordsmanship, while ignoring the distrust and solitary nature of his psyche. I hope he has awesome rules, but I understand that he may have to take a hit from my imagined status to not be exorbitantly overpowered. I would also greatly prefer that his rules aim to represent his strategic brilliance rather than focus on his "beatstick" abilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 why is the sucker punch out of character? Because he is a Knightly knight of honor?? Yea, he grew up in the wilds of Caliban fighting off chaos tainted warp monsters. I have no doubt he pulled some dirty tricks to do so, and to ignore the darker aspect of his personality seems to cheapen him as a character. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3766924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The sucker punch isn't what is out of character. Him agreeing to a truce and then breaking it is what was out of character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3767029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I dunno, I can even excuse that. Knightly codes of honor to me are dubious at best, and usually highly romanticized. Sides, a truce with a traitor who already broke his oaths of fealty to their liege lord? Yea, that was going to be broken, this time the Lion broke first. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3767036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Honestly, I don't hold the Lion to a Knightly code. I hold him to a duelist's code; that he fights upon the agreed rules of engagement. I also expect him to be a pragmatic strategist and take advantage of anything that isn't covered in the rules of engagement. But that's my personal opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3767147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Eh, my thing about 1.)is that the first time round, the Lion sucker punched Curze and had to leave the battlefield with his throat cut after being strangled. The second time round, the Lion simply did a better job of sucker punching. The third time round the Lion had Guilliman as backup and they had to leave to another planet to avoid being killed. Three unfair fights and only one victory. Doesn't sound so good that way. Why are you basing WS on whether the Lion wins or loses? 1. The first time around, after "sucker punching" Curze, the Lion proceeds to (almost) toy with Curze. He keeps talking smack to Curze as he shows off his superior dueling technique. When Curze goes for the takedown, the battle becomes a brawl and Curze gains the upper hand. Lion with higher WS, Curze with higher S...that seems reasonable. The Lion is by far the superior technical duelist. Curze is the better brawler 2. ADB has stated online that the first battle is a draw, not a victory for Curze (yeah, a bit odd...but he's the authour) 3. Did the Lion have his throat cut in the first battle. The dude isn't bleeding out or anything like that. Come to think of it...how do you strangle someone when you're wearing lightning claws. I suppose the Lion's neck is lacerated but his throat hasn't been slashed open 4. We don't know how the second fight plays out other than the Lion wins at the end. If Curze allows the Lion to "sucker punch" him again...he's an idiot. Fool me once sham on you, fool me twice...shame on me and all that 5. Bobby and the Lion escape the massive explosion rigged by Curze. This has nothing to do with WS Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294625-what-is-your-expectation-of-lion-el-jonson-from-fw/page/2/#findComment-3767324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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