How powerful is the Emperor really?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I always here people say that the Emperor could destroy star systems and that he could solo every faction in 40K with ease but from the BL books I've read he dosent seem as omnipotent as some older fluff states. So how strong is the Emperor? Is he really the sector-destroying god or is he more a Primarch+?

[marine7312000]

I think he's more around the power of a Primarch+.

[David Ravel]

He still defeated a C'tan if I remember correctly. The dragon thing under Mars. It's pretty badass, much more than a Primarch+. To me, Constantin is Primarch+ material. 

[Black Cohort]

He still defeated a C'tan if I remember correctly. The dragon thing under Mars. It's pretty badass, much more than a Primarch+. To me, Constantin is Primarch+ material.

Do you have any evidence that Constantin is capable of going toe to toe with a Primarch and winning?

[Augustus]

He's as strong as he needs to be. Mysterious ways and what not. And reasons.

[Kol Saresk]

 

He still defeated a C'tan if I remember correctly. The dragon thing under Mars. It's pretty badass, much more than a Primarch+. To me, Constantin is Primarch+ material.

Do you have any evidence that Constantin is capable of going toe to toe with a Primarch and winning?

We have a sparring match.

 

Also, it should be noted that Garro beat a Custodian in a sparring match. So going by the "I have a bigger stick" methodology, Garro should be Primarch level.

 

Or we can be reasonable and put Constantin at a Custodian level. Otherwise every Space Marine who defeats a Greater Daemon would have to be Primarch level since the Khan and Sanguinius have defeated Greater Daemons.

 

Prodigal, if you have the chance, find Wolf of Ashes and Fire(I think that's what it was called). It doesn't show all the Emperor's power, just a portion. But that portion helps puts his capabilities in a better light as he destroys a super ork by literally bending space around it to the point it just stops existing, something that defies the laws of physics.

 

There's also a bit in After De'Shea where Khârn tells Angron about how the War Hounds were fighting this xenos breed that wormed through the ground and made a mockery of their tanks and such and how the Emperor went to the head of the army surrounded by golden light and when the next charge hit, it broke upon him like a wooden ship crashing into a cliff bow first. Or is it stern first? My nautical was never really good.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I've seen the part about Constantin beating a Primarch in a sparring match but have never seen it sourced. I always thought of it as one of those urban legends that's been repeated enough times for people to assume its true.

[Kilofix]

Are we talking about before or after the Emperor turned to Chaos? Lol.... ok I kid, I kid.

 

We know that before Molech he needed a Starship, after Molech he didn't need a Starship.

[Perrin]

 

 

He still defeated a C'tan if I remember correctly. The dragon thing under Mars. It's pretty badass, much more than a Primarch+. To me, Constantin is Primarch+ material.

Do you have any evidence that Constantin is capable of going toe to toe with a Primarch and winning?

We have a sparring match.

 

Also, it should be noted that Garro beat a Custodian in a sparring match. So going by the "I have a bigger stick" methodology, Garro should be Primarch level.

 

Or we can be reasonable and put Constantin at a Custodian level. Otherwise every Space Marine who defeats a Greater Daemon would have to be Primarch level since the Khan and Sanguinius have defeated Greater Daemons.

 

Prodigal, if you have the chance, find Wolf of Ashes and Fire(I think that's what it was called). It doesn't show all the Emperor's power, just a portion. But that portion helps puts his capabilities in a better light as he destroys a super ork by literally bending space around it to the point it just stops existing, something that defies the laws of physics.

 

There's also a bit in After De'Shea where Khârn tells Angron about how the War Hounds were fighting this xenos breed that wormed through the ground and made a mockery of their tanks and such and how the Emperor went to the head of the army surrounded by golden light and when the next charge hit, it broke upon him like a wooden ship crashing into a cliff bow first. Or is it stern first? My nautical was never really good.

 

 

Nit picking really but I read the passage of the Emperor destroying the super Ork as blasting him with pure power, like a "It's over 9000!" kind of thing rather than a bending space, defying physics kind of thing.

[minigun762]

blasting him with pure power, like a "It's over 9000!"

Was waiting for that ha.

[Kol Saresk]

"It's over 9000!" is still better than Krillin like the Emperor is mostly portrayed. :P

[Conn Eremon]

"It's over 9000!" is still better than Krillin like the Emperor is mostly portrayed. :P

. . . God damn it, now I want to see Horus Heresy Abridged.

[Conn Eremon]

Real response: Removing the Emperor from the equation, the greatest, most absolutely powerful human ever was Horus. Not just a Primarch, greatest breed of humans to have ever existed. Not just a Daemon Prince, as some of his lesser brothers ascended to. The peak of human perfection given the unholy strength of all the Gods, their complete, unstinting support.

 

No one has ever stood as tall or as mighty as Horus, not even his son and heir, even if he is fated to succeed where the father failed.

 

And yet, despite all this power, when the Warmaster stood opposite the Emperor and fought their bloody duel, he only barely equaled the Emperor of Mankind in terms of pure strength. Though the duel may have occurred on more planes of reality than just the one, though the might of the Warmaster could smite whole worlds clean of life, the entity he had endeavored to rival and overcome him met him blow for blow.

 

And the whole time, the Emperor's heart wasn't even in it. He was holding back. He did not want to lose his favored son. For all of Horus' terrible power, for all his bloodthirsty intent, his father was beyond him.

 

In the end, Horus was obliterated. Not defeated. Not broken. Not slain. Erased.

 

That's my Emperor.

[Black Cohort]

Once the emperor took the gloves off in his fight versus Horus it took one mental attack from the emperor to completely and totally destroy horus.

[A D-B]

...given the unholy strength of all the Gods, their complete, unstinting support.

 

A lot of that description is better suited to Abaddon, not Horus. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, after all. Horus doesn't. Horus was given whatever it took to deceive him into doing the Gods' work, and at the last moment realised what he'd become against all reason and rhyme, when the Gods abandoned him. The Gods don't abandon Abaddon - he has the strength to resist them, which Horus never did, and yet they still work endlessly to be his patrons.

 

I realise it's heresy to go into that in the Age of Darkness forum, but Horus isn't the license's Big Bad / Antichrist in those absolute terms. Abaddon is. Horus was the flawed prototype.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't see how the Anti-Christ is more powerful than Satan himself. It might be a 40K twist for that to be so, but you can't have the anti-christ without first having the devil. 

[A D-B]

I don't see how the Anti-Christ is more powerful than Satan himself. It might be a 40K twist for that to be so, but you can't have the anti-christ without first having the devil. 

 

Sure, but Horus isn't Satan. It's an imperfect analogy, either way. Hence the "Big Bad" comment, too. Abaddon is the license's Big Bad, not Horus, no matter how much damage Abaddon's had done to him through memes, etc. I know how easy it is to see the Heresy as The Biggest Moment, and 40K as its little brother, but that's not really the score.

 

EDIT: If anything, Abaddon is "Satan". Look at his name. Look at his role. He's the fallen angel that leads the Armies of the Damned. As discussed...

[Marshal Rohr]

So the Horus Heresy gets relegated to the World War 1 slot of the universe?

 

Edit: Would a better analogy be Julius Caeser to Caeser Augustus? With Horus as Julius?

[A D-B]

So the Horus Heresy gets relegated to the World War 1 slot of the universe?

 

Relegated? Nothing's changed. It's the immensely huge throwdown backstory that it always was.

 

I dig your Caeser analogy. As analogies go, it's way better than most.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

...given the unholy strength of all the Gods, their complete, unstinting support.

A lot of that description is better suited to Abaddon, not Horus. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, after all. Horus doesn't. Horus was given whatever it took to deceive him into doing the Gods' work, and at the last moment realised what he'd become against all reason and rhyme, when the Gods abandoned him. The Gods don't abandon Abaddon - he has the strength to resist them, which Horus never did, and yet they still work endlessly to be his patrons.

 

I realise it's heresy to go into that in the Age of Darkness forum, but Horus isn't the license's Big Bad / Antichrist in those absolute terms. Abaddon is. Horus was the flawed prototype.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on the matter, and I will concede the point that Abaddon is the 'antichrist' of the whole shebang, but . . .

 

I don't know, it just doesn't quite jive with my image of it all. I've always seen Horus as being the true greater, but he gambled too much on too great a risk. Abaddon learned from Horus' mistakes and is playing the long game, but he himself is no equal to his father as far as outright, personal power goes. The greater Warmaster, for sure. Yes, Horus was duped where Abaddon is not, but he was nonetheless granted more power.

 

Ultimately, it call comes down to that inevitable duel between Horus and the Emperor. I just don't see Abaddon being so . . . I don't know how to explain it. I just can't picture them swapped without it becoming ridiculously more one-sided, even if you ignore the possibility that the Emperor might have held back against the Emperor.

[SteelPaladin]

Kol, that bit in After Desh'ea was awesome. Man, I really wish that Matt Farrer wrote for the BL more often...

 

We will probably have a better idea of the Emperor's capabilities when Master of Mankind comes out. The war in the webway has always been one of my favorite bits of 30k lore, and the little taste we had in The Sigillite was enticing. Unimaginable forces unleashed, and only the sheer will of the Emperor keeps in contained. Well, his will and tons of Sisters and Custodes. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe it's just me. 40K doesn't make much sense as it stands. Maybe when the Warmaster Chronicles develops over a few books it'll build up to the two minutes to midnight it's supposed to feel like.

 

Right now all one has to do is look at the descriptions of 40K battles to realize that there is a lack of focus in bringing the story to what you're aiming for. Look at the latest Ork Codex and Ghazghkulls story. He gets chased off and teleports to the Tau Empire? There isn't enough time left for him to be a threat anymore and he's geographically isolated as far from the galactic core as he can be. Then there are the plethora of stories of the entire Ultramarines chapter stopping huge invasions and taking massive casualties within months of each other, but then were told it takes years to train a space marine. Or worse, we get stories where a handful of marines manage to stop an invasion in a single battle.

 

40K suffers because it's impossible to believe the studios version of events. Black Library encourages the disbelief with things like Ben Counters Fist books that aren't remotely close to the studios version of events. Most of the stories lack a believable scale or even the most basic resemblance to a functioning strategy. Your novels are best at avoiding these problems, precisely because you avoid the subject. Armature for example, was just enough information to know it was well defended, with a believable scale of combat personnel, and the right mix of supernatural and technological game changers to make the traitors victory possible.

 

Edit:

For the best example of what I'm talking about, look the recent rash of Armageddon releases. The studio timeline doesn't come close to meshing with yours (the Orks being there a whole season before the Templars show up).

[A D-B]

 

 

...given the unholy strength of all the Gods, their complete, unstinting support.

A lot of that description is better suited to Abaddon, not Horus. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, after all. Horus doesn't. Horus was given whatever it took to deceive him into doing the Gods' work, and at the last moment realised what he'd become against all reason and rhyme, when the Gods abandoned him. The Gods don't abandon Abaddon - he has the strength to resist them, which Horus never did, and yet they still work endlessly to be his patrons.

 

I realise it's heresy to go into that in the Age of Darkness forum, but Horus isn't the license's Big Bad / Antichrist in those absolute terms. Abaddon is. Horus was the flawed prototype.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on the matter, and I will concede the point that Abaddon is the 'antichrist' of the whole shebang, but . . .

 

I don't know, it just doesn't quite jive with my image of it all. I've always seen Horus as being the true greater, but he gambled too much on too great a risk. Abaddon learned from Horus' mistakes and is playing the long game, but he himself is no equal to his father as far as outright, personal power goes. The greater Warmaster, for sure. Yes, Horus was duped where Abaddon is not, but he was nonetheless granted more power.

 

Ultimately, it call comes down to that inevitable duel between Horus and the Emperor. I just don't see Abaddon being so . . . I don't know how to explain it. I just can't picture them swapped without it becoming ridiculously more one-sided, even if you ignore the possibility that the Emperor might have held back against the Emperor.

 

 

I know what you mean. Especially with all the intense focus on the Heresy, it's easy to see it as Everything Is Bigger and Better, and in the case of a lot of battles, sure. But in terms of thematics and narrative and blah blah blah, it all balances out. And there's no absolute line on this, only what various peeps behind the curtain discuss in their knowledge of the IP. That doesn't make it sacred law; I'd not kick down your door in my Fun Police outfit because you see Horus as X rather than Y. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not, but I have no right to insist it's not if you like it that way.

 

And Horus has two advantages here: he has the mystique of being Oh My God, It's Horus from 25 years of unseen history, and now he has the giant miniature and the hugest, most detailed war with a billion new models and books centred around his betrayal. Abaddon has memes of failure and the fact that the main thing he's prophecised to do actually happens, well, after Warhammer 40,000. He's the one prophecised to bring about the end of the Emperor, sure, but the setting of the Dark Millennium is the last, hopeless gasp before the curtain falls. So Abaddon is essentially in limbo on that score. We can "know" he'll do X, or speculate, but we don't get to 'see' it beyond the beginnings of the Crimson Path and the 13th Black Crusade either cracking open a wound into the Imperium, or just starting, depending which edition you're referring to.

 

EDIT II: THE REVENGE OF EDITING: What this also means is that I'm in the lucky position of getting to show just why the name "Abaddon" (and not Horus) is whispered in terror across the Imperium for 10,000 years. What we know from the lore in the past is barely a scrap of what's really taken place. It's an opportunity, not a loss, and I don't think 40K needs to "advance" and alter its theme of Future History just to make Abaddon a credible threat. The lore has always said he's The Threat, and it's kinda our job to show it now.

 

So, trust me, I get it. And I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you - there are nuances and doubts and tides in something this fluid and nebulous. But I think it's fair to say it's erroneous to consider Horus as the Chaos Gods' real chance, and their preferred option. He was a flawed prototype, and they abandoned him. They crave Abaddon, but he understands Chaos on a level Horus never did, and is much stronger in resisting it.

 

" 'Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.'

 

It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second. Seriously, Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit.

 

If Horus was the vessel that all of the Gods poured their power into (right up until they abandoned him at the end), then Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other. He is the New Emperor in a way that Horus never was or would have been. Abaddon has, through sheer force of will and dominance, made himself more than a pawn, he has made himself kingmaker. If he were to choose one god to serve, if he dedicated the Black Legion to a single power in his name, that God would crush his rivals almost to the point of victory.

Almost.

 

Because Chaos can never win against itself, of course, and Abaddon has seen the truth of this. He knows that Chaos is a process, a state, not a goal, and the moment anyone surrenders to the journey and forgets the destination is the moment their worldly ambitions are forgotten and their spirit becomes simply a part of the Chaos Powers. Abaddon is utterly relentless in his pursuit of what he wants – whatever that may actually be. Revenge on the Emperor? Too petty. Vengeance for Horus? Too sentimental. Power? Yes. What kind of power? Mortal power. He could have all the immortal power he can handle if he but asks for it, but that is not what drives him. He sees the Primarchs disappear, fade, die or simply not care anymore and he understands that only a man can really rule other men."

[depthcharge12]

"It's over 9000!" is still better than Krillin like the Emperor is mostly portrayed. :P

 

Actually his power is maximum.

 

 

+1 to anyone who knows that lol

[A D-B]

Your novels are best at avoiding these problems, precisely because you avoid the subject. 

 

I can't comment too much (beyond saying "Thank you, I think..."), especially on other people's work, but one of my friends who does a fair bit of contributing to the license mentioned something similar about scale a while back. He was talking about the Black Legion as an example, and said one of the things I should get across in my series as time passes is the eventual scale of the faction itself. 

 

"It's not a warband showing up. It's not one hundred Chaos Marines. The sky goes black. Everyone dies. A Space Marine Legion, backed up by armies of daemon engines and mutants and daemons and Dark Mechanicum show up and devour the planet, no matter who's opposing them. That's the Black Legion."

 

Obviously, there'll be plenty of wars and battles where it is just a warband or three of the Black Legion, but I liked where he was going with his point. It ties in with yours. It's much easier to show the scale of something when it's only a handful of writers, rather than 25+ years of several hundred writers, all with different focuses and interests. I can see what you mean about the dilution, but I don't prefer one over the other. As much as I love exploring 30K, I love 40K just as much. I find the latter more inspiring overall, actually. 30K - for all its scale - is very constrained, and only really lasts a few years. And a lot of the most interesting aspects of the license are essentially missing in the Heresy, as the characters there have no knowledge or experience of it, or at least much less than their 40K counterparts.

 

This is why I read, write, play, and love both. They're completely different. Like Julius's Republic and Augustus's Empire. They're both Rome, but...