How powerful is the Emperor really?

[Conn Eremon]

Honestly, AD-B, I don't really disagree with any of that. In fact, I love it. I might be a loyalist at heart, but I have always seen Abaddon as the biggest bad of all, against whom the Imperium of this day and age can not hope to stop.

 

But for all that . . . Well, if the comparison was as simple as power levels, I would say that Horus' was higher than Abaddon's. And that is all I am really saying that makes Horus 'greater.' Horus, at that point in time, had a higher power level.

 

But I am of the opinion that Abaddon is the more dangerous, the more successful. Horus, for all his vaunted power, did fail where Abaddon will succeed. So this 'power level' nonsense is just that. It doesn't mean anything substantial on its own.

[Marshal Rohr]

Your friend is spot on. That's exactly the point I was trying to make so poorly.

 

When the scene is set for the Final Countdown, it's every man and woman hunkering down behind their defensive lines on Cadia, racking their slides and saying a prayer to the Emperor as gigantic drop ships descend on pillars of black smoke surrounded by swarms of demonic beasts and machines.

 

That's when the story stops, and that's where we play games.

 

When the above is only the precursor to a story of 4000 imperial guardsmen halting the entire advance of the Black Legion because Ursarker Creed was able to invent a tactic lost to the Imperium or Marneus Calgar held back the daemon hordes for a day and a night, it robs the above of the sheer scale and guy wrenching feeling that comes with that.

 

The reason people think of Abaddon as a meme has more to do with the 75 word snippets in a Codex timeline or the one page lay out in a rule book. Because those vary so wildly from one to another, it's nearly impossible to keep it as focused as we can with the HH story line.

 

As an aside: What I meant about you avoiding the subject, is that you don't bog down in minutiae of organization and such. While it would be cool to some, it would be taxing on the patience to others. Helsreach has the tremendous scene of the commanders meeting prior to the invasion, yet it didn't go to great pains to point out every chapter present and how the codex adherents wouldn't stand next to the space wolves, and things that detract from otherwise decent Graham McNeill stories.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I've always seen Abby as Horus MK2. Where as Horus was the stop-gap Abaddon is the finished product.

 

Edit: I think most of Abbadon's bad rep is from the fact that a lot of fluff makes him out as a joke. Their are numerous examples of his failures such as when he was beaten in combat by Eldrad or Stern or being beaten by the IH at Medusa and all of his victories are comparatively small for what the character is built up to be. 'Cool, you conquered a planet with an entire legion, get in line behind all the other Lords who did it with just a chapter.' His only victory that (IMO) truly measures up to what he should be is his conquest of Cadia and majority of Segmentum Obscuras which got retconed. If he had more fluff of him actually winning in a significant way and not a 'I lost but my unnecessarily complex plan to achieve nothing is working' or 'oh I won but took terrible losses' he wouldn't be the joke he is.

 

I understand that just the achievement of building the Black Legion is noteworthy in of itself but it would be nice to see Abaddon actually win for once.

[Marshal Rohr]

To try and define what I mean a little better, I got off my phone and onto my computer so I can convey my point more cohesively.

 

 

The Horus Heresy, as a story, benefits from a smaller number of authors in communication with one another telling the story with an overall arch that leads to a defined endpoint. The FW staff's idea that the HH is shaped like a diamond, with it starting at one point, branching off, then slowly coalescing back to the end means that everything will naturally stay together more than 40K. The scope of the Horus Heresy seems grander in scale than 40K because of this communication. The authors know the Legions are huge, and most of the authors do a good job of representing the scale of the armies alongside of the legions. 

 

40K, instead of a diamond, is like a tree. It was planted a long time ago (the HH), and now its highest branches (999.M41) are constantly pruned while new branches grow beneath the canopy as authors add more stories. The 'End of Times' setting has lost a lot of its gravitas because in recent years the pruning of the branches has become far more haphazard, and the change over in landscapers means that different authors have different views. The Warmaster Chronicles is absolutely the right step in the direction of of redefining what the 40K setting is meant to be, but it won't help if in the next Chaos Codex, the Crimson Path is entirely removed, and we are given a story about how Abaddon actually has allowed each of the 4 Gods to be his patron at some point in the past, entirely undoing the whole purpose of specifically pointing out he has never had a patron. 

 

The studio, and not Black Library, is the problem in this scenario. Sure, BL puts out a few quick reads that make no sense in the timeline and have no real purpose other than to just be a story, but it is the studio that wantonly changes the timeline, major actors, and results at a whim. Again, the example of Armageddon in the Ork Codex, but also the Tau Empire fluff, the Tyranid fluff, and the Astra Militarum fluff all have examples of situations that cheapen the seriousness of the era or outright change the story for no reason whatsoever. 

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

Back to the original question in the story the Wolf of ash and fire horus and the emperor went to this ork infested planet which had mega orks as I recall if it wasn't for horus the emperor would've died or been mortially wounded at least but then these orks were nothing like the orks I've read before though these were like primarch strength orks if that helps

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Honestly, AD-B, I don't really disagree with any of that. In fact, I love it. I might be a loyalist at heart, but I have always seen Abaddon as the biggest bad of all, against whom the Imperium of this day and age can not hope to stop.

 

But for all that . . . Well, if the comparison was as simple as power levels, I would say that Horus' was higher than Abaddon's. And that is all I am really saying that makes Horus 'greater.' Horus, at that point in time, had a higher power level.

 

But I am of the opinion that Abaddon is the more dangerous, the more successful. Horus, for all his vaunted power, did fail where Abaddon will succeed. So this 'power level' nonsense is just that. It doesn't mean anything substantial on its own.

 

So much this. If it came to a physical confrontation, Horus would murderize Abaddon in a heartbeat. But that's completely irrelevant.

 

Bringing the Imperium to its knees isn't about being the biggest, baddest, combat monster there is - for want of a better word, its about politics. Its about manipulating all these disparate factions into a force that can destroy an empire. With Horus, Chaos was the power behind the throne. With Abaddon, Chaos is a tool - because he understands what it truly is, and what it can do. Horus didn't even know Chaos existed until Davin, and by the time his pact was sealed it was far, far too late for him to control it - he was already a pawn [albeit an immensely powerful pawn].

 

I have to admit, I think there's a bit of a problem in terms of how the major players in 40k / 30k are perceived. Because the whole universe is based around the game, the most important characters have to be absolute beasts in combat - otherwise they'd be useless on the tabletop. This means that every character seems to be a warrior first, strategist second, so undue value is placed on combat prowess. Whereas in reality, a strategist will win a battle against a soldier who leads from the front 9 times out of 10. So every time this sort of thing is discussed, its always skewed by 'X would beat Y in a straight up fight' when often that's just irrelevant. 

[Kol Saresk]

The best pawn is the one who believes he is already the king.

[Balthamal]

Dammit kol beat me to the chess analogy. What I would have said though "There are only kings and pawns. Both move to other whims regardless"

[Vesper]

I think we've been given a partial view on the Black Crusades that led to Interwebs memes and a certain idea of Abaddon's accomplishement in universe like the one voiced by Talos before his final change of heart.

Truth is, it is quite understandable when the Black Crusades are only summed up by three lines of background centered around a single event. That tends to present it at a Chapter scale.

The Black Legion burns El'Phanor to the ground ? Nice. The Ultramarines do that kind of stuff too. Let's read the Eye of Terror order of battle. Oh damn, there's the Black Legion. Thank god the imperials got Chapter X.

We've been told the Black Legion is made up of countless warbands, yet we saw nothing of that supposedly huge power in any piece of background so far.

Now I want Talon of Horus pretty bad.

[Kol Saresk]

Except the Black Legion supplement. Which also provides a beautiful picture of just how far some of the "failure Crusades" actually reach.

[Balthamal]

I think we've been given a partial view on the Black Crusades that led to Interwebs memes and a certain idea of Abaddon's accomplishement in universe like the one voiced by Talos before his final change of heart.

Truth is, it is quite understandable when the Black Crusades are only summed up by three lines of background centered around a single event. That tends to present it at a Chapter scale.

The Black Legion burns El'Phanor to the ground ? Nice. The Ultramarines do that kind of stuff too. Let's read the Eye of Terror order of battle. Oh damn, there's the Black Legion. Thank god the imperials got Chapter X.

We've been told the Black Legion is made up of countless warbands, yet we saw nothing of that supposedly huge power in any piece of background so far.

Now I want Talon of Horus pretty bad.

 

2 weeks to go my friend

[Vesper]

 

I think we've been given a partial view on the Black Crusades that led to Interwebs memes and a certain idea of Abaddon's accomplishement in universe like the one voiced by Talos before his final change of heart.

Truth is, it is quite understandable when the Black Crusades are only summed up by three lines of background centered around a single event. That tends to present it at a Chapter scale.

The Black Legion burns El'Phanor to the ground ? Nice. The Ultramarines do that kind of stuff too. Let's read the Eye of Terror order of battle. Oh damn, there's the Black Legion. Thank god the imperials got Chapter X.

We've been told the Black Legion is made up of countless warbands, yet we saw nothing of that supposedly huge power in any piece of background so far.

Now I want Talon of Horus pretty bad.

 

2 weeks to go my friend

 

Indeed. I just hope the First Edition thingy doesn't costs a zillion dollarz.

 

 

Except the Black Legion supplement. Which also provides a beautiful picture of just how far some of the "failure Crusades" actually reach.

 

A step in the right direction. But I wanted more.

 

[Russ Brother 92]

When the scene is set for the Final Countdown, it's every man and woman hunkering down behind their defensive lines on Cadia, racking their slides and saying a prayer to the Emperor as gigantic drop ships descend on pillars of black smoke surrounded by swarms of demonic beasts and machines.

 

 

M2C - this one piece you've written really does sum up 40k in every way... It's the fear that gripped Mid-70's USA (allowing for me being a Brit and not overly knowledgeable of US views on it) during the Cold War era, the same fears that gripped the British populace at the start of the First World War - that everything they know, everything they love and any future they might have had is nought in comparison to the hell that is about to be unleashed upon them.

 

It evokes that 30 second moment where you're stood across from someone, both of you catch the eyes of the other, all you see is purpose - not hatred, anger or pain - merely the cold logic of kill or be killed - that final moment where you know only one will walk/stumble/crawl away, bowed but not broken, down but not out... That pain resurges itself in the will to live, the fire to survive - whilst I realise I am rather off-topic (for which I am sorry) it is evoked very well in the BTs Armageddon book by AD-B.

 

Now back on-topic - I wouldn't state that the Emps is insurmountably powerful but he IS the big 'good guy' the same way that in 30k terms Horus is the Big Bad to counter him, I would expect in game terms the Emps to be on level with an Avatar of Kain (sp?) but better staying power than Vulcan at his height - so NOT 10s across the board, more like 8-10 across the board.

[Artein]

Perfect birthday gift. Unless expensive as FW army....

[A D-B]

 

Honestly, AD-B, I don't really disagree with any of that. In fact, I love it. I might be a loyalist at heart, but I have always seen Abaddon as the biggest bad of all, against whom the Imperium of this day and age can not hope to stop.

 

But for all that . . . Well, if the comparison was as simple as power levels, I would say that Horus' was higher than Abaddon's. And that is all I am really saying that makes Horus 'greater.' Horus, at that point in time, had a higher power level.

 

But I am of the opinion that Abaddon is the more dangerous, the more successful. Horus, for all his vaunted power, did fail where Abaddon will succeed. So this 'power level' nonsense is just that. It doesn't mean anything substantial on its own.

 

So much this. If it came to a physical confrontation, Horus would murderize Abaddon in a heartbeat. But that's completely irrelevant.

 

And debatable. I agree on your wider point, and I personally don't much care if Abaddon could take Horus in a fight, one on one. You're right that it's irrelevant. Achievement, control, and charisma is everything, and Abaddon has achieved much more than Horus ever could. How good you are with a sword isn't what's at stake, here. But that's the thing. By several sources, Abaddon can't die. He cannot be killed, according to various lore slices, because of the aura and blessings around him. The gods abandoned Horus - he could absolutely be killed, because... he was killed. The evidence is there.

 

Then there's that whole 'Horus clone' deal, where Abaddon kills the clone of his father long before he's even blessed by Chaos to the degree he eventually becomes, but you can argue that's not really Horus, anyway. But the daemon primarchs - far above and beyond their original abilities and strengths - are almost definitely far, far past Horus's capabilities in a lot of ways. Yet they don't really lead the Chaos Marine Legions in terms of massive wars into the Imperium. Abaddon does. And there's several references in the lore mentioning how the Daemon Primarchs follow him out of the Eye of Terror in the 13th Black Crusade, beneath his banner, as well as increasingly visible references to the fact Abaddon brings them to heel or forms alliances with them, one way or another. And if he can master/control/ally with them, it's definitely arguable that Horus was as personally powerful as a daemon primarch.

 

Khayon, in The Talon of Horus, mentions a little of this in terms of what will come later in his chronicle. He cites how among his many titles, he's called Kingbreaker, and Khayon the Black, the mage that brought Magnus the Red to his knees... because Abaddon willed it. A fully-blessed M41 end-of-the-Dark-Millennium Abaddon? No, I'd not be willing to say Horus would wipe the floor with him, easily or otherwise. There's just no way to compare it beyond turbulent imagination, and the evidence isn't in Horus's favour beyond bombastic guesswork. I can say that probably Horus would win? Maybe? And then defeat my own agreement by citing evidence to the contrary, as above.

 

I get that Horus has a big mini, and many, many more words devoted to his power than Abaddon. And I definitely get that personal fighting skill is irrelevant on every level of what actually matters in these comparisons. But that's part of why it's unanswerable. Abaddon is absolutely beyond comprehension - for all we know, he might not even break a sweat fighting Horus. He certainly comes out on top when he rams the Talon of Horus through the clone's body.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth, IHF, I agree - especially with the irrelevancy and the disproportionate "badass" focus certain aspects of leaders get. But there's no clear-cut answer - the nature of it all implies there probably can't be an answer - and I think that's worth bearing in mind.

[A D-B]

Except the Black Legion supplement. Which also provides a beautiful picture of just how far some of the "failure Crusades" actually reach.

 

A fraction of a look, though. Without going too deeply into the process, there's plenty in those examples that are still very, very small-scale - they're likely to be feints and battlefronts in a much wider conflicts, rather than the focus of entire Crusades. A Black Crusade (with notable exceptions like the Ghost War) should probably make the Sabbat Worlds Crusade look like a day out in an English country garden.

 

Scale, scale, scale.

[Marshal Rohr]

Fully blessed Abaddon is 200 points less than Horus, though. :P

[A D-B]

Fully blessed Abaddon is 200 points less than Horus, though.

I know you're joking, and I also know that everyone and their dog is aware of the disconnect between rules and the background... but on an absolutely on-topic note, if you think the Emperor's tabletop stats will reflect what the Emperor is really capable of, then...

And on that perfect example, the prosecution rests.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wait... Are they going to give the Emperor stats?

 

Edit: I had been tinkering with the idea of using Horus' rules for an ascendent Abaddon for fluff games set during the 13th BC. Way scarier than the ones he has now.

[A D-B]

Wait... Are they going to give the Emperor stats?

 

On a chariot-sled pulled by wolves.

 

...actually, the Emperor on a chariot would rock. Persian king-style. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Will it be pulled by gigantic Aquilas?

[Adra'Melek]

 

Fully blessed Abaddon is 200 points less than Horus, though. :P

 

I know you're joking, and I also know that everyone and their dog is aware of the disconnect between rules and the background... but on an absolutely on-topic note, if you think the Emperor's tabletop stats will reflect what the Emperor is really capable of, then...

 

And on that perfect example, the prosecution rests.

So that's confirmation that the Emperor will get stats then? After all you said "will" :)

 

(I pray to all the gods this never happens, he's been ruined enough).

 

Edit: my uniquely humorous observation was ninja'd. Now it just looks lame, I should probably delete it.

[A D-B]

Fully blessed Abaddon is 200 points less than Horus, though.

I know you're joking, and I also know that everyone and their dog is aware of the disconnect between rules and the background... but on an absolutely on-topic note, if you think the Emperor's tabletop stats will reflect what the Emperor is really capable of, then...

And on that perfect example, the prosecution rests.

So that's confirmation that the Emperor will get stats then? After all you said "will"

(I pray to all the gods this never happens, he's been ruined enough).

Edit: my uniquely humorous observation was ninja'd. Now it just looks lame, I should probably delete it.

I shudder in fear at the prospect of anyone taking any aspect of the last few posts of this thread seriously.

But that said, I enjoyed it all a bunch. For now, I flee, back to the shadow. With apologies for the derailment.

[Wade Garrett]

And the whole time, the Emperor's heart wasn't even in it. He was holding back. He did not want to lose his favored son. For all of Horus' terrible power, for all his bloodthirsty intent, his father was beyond him.

 

In the end, Horus was obliterated. Not defeated. Not broken. Not slain. Erased.

 

That's my Emperor.

 

This idea never fails to get my goat.

 

Because to me, "The Emperor was holding back against Horus because he LUUURRRRVED him so much" has always equated to "The Emperor spit on the corpses of Malcador, Sanguinus, Ferrus Manus, and every other Custodian, Astartes, and mortal who fell fighting the Forces of Chaos during the Heresy. Because they weren't Horus."

[Black Cohort]

 

And the whole time, the Emperor's heart wasn't even in it. He was holding back. He did not want to lose his favored son. For all of Horus' terrible power, for all his bloodthirsty intent, his father was beyond him.

 

In the end, Horus was obliterated. Not defeated. Not broken. Not slain. Erased.

 

That's my Emperor.

 

This idea never fails to get my goat.

 

Because to me, "The Emperor was holding back against Horus because he LUUURRRRVED him so much" has always equated to "The Emperor spit on the corpses of Malcador, Sanguinus, Ferrus Manus, and every other Custodian, Astartes, and mortal who fell fighting the Forces of Chaos during the Heresy. Because they weren't Horus."

People do stupid things when it comes to family. Even immortal psykers and their test-tube sons.