How powerful is the Emperor really?

[Fire Golem]

Maybe the Emperor thought he could save Horus, and bring him back from the clutches of Chaos?

[Conn Eremon]

 

And the whole time, the Emperor's heart wasn't even in it. He was holding back. He did not want to lose his favored son. For all of Horus' terrible power, for all his bloodthirsty intent, his father was beyond him.

 

In the end, Horus was obliterated. Not defeated. Not broken. Not slain. Erased.

 

That's my Emperor.

 

This idea never fails to get my goat.

 

Because to me, "The Emperor was holding back against Horus because he LUUURRRRVED him so much" has always equated to "The Emperor spit on the corpses of Malcador, Sanguinus, Ferrus Manus, and every other Custodian, Astartes, and mortal who fell fighting the Forces of Chaos during the Heresy. Because they weren't Horus."

Hey, if you want to say that must mean it was out of some sort of paternal love that he failed to share in any measure with the others, that's your choice.

 

It's certainly not mine, though.

 

AD-B: I'll fully concede the point to you. What I have been saying is what my original, ongoing impression on the matter was, however I find that I am not particularly beholden to it in any real way. It's simply how I thought things was.

 

But reading your responses has certainly been enough for me to reevaluate my stance and find it wanting.

 

Now publish that damn Abby series already.

[Teetengee]

I feel like griffons (lion eagles) would be the proper things to pull the Emperor's chariot.

One of the things that has always bothered me with the Horus Abby thing is that images always portray Horus as boss, usually over the broken corpse of Sanguinius, Abby on the other hand usually get's small artwork where he is dwarfed by his armour (which isn't all bad but compared to other images makes him seem tiny.). Horus is arrogance and power and grace, Abby always comes across as less in the art, and his old model is no help either.

 

On topic, I always thought that the Emperor was vastly more powerful not because of what he could do in any given situation but that he could do a thousand things it took primarchs to do all at once. (see astronomicon). In single combat he would not be that much more powerful, but he could probably fight 100 primarchs in his mind all at the same time.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Except the Black Legion supplement. Which also provides a beautiful picture of just how far some of the "failure Crusades" actually reach.

A fraction of a look, though. Without going too deeply into the process, there's plenty in those examples that are still very, very small-scale - they're likely to be feints and battlefronts in a much wider conflicts, rather than the focus of entire Crusades. A Black Crusade (with notable exceptions like the Ghost War) should probably make the Sabbat Worlds Crusade look like a day out in an English country garden.

 

Scale, scale, scale.

Oh I understand that. I just think its hard to call a Crusade that reaches from the Eye of Terror to the Maelstrom a failure since it basically provided a realspace connection from one point to another.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

*snip*

 

And debatable. I agree on your wider point, and I personally don't much care if Abaddon could take Horus in a fight, one on one. You're right that it's irrelevant. Achievement, control, and charisma is everything, and Abaddon has achieved much more than Horus ever could. How good you are with a sword isn't what's at stake, here. But that's the thing. By several sources, Abaddon can't die. He cannot be killed, according to various lore slices, because of the aura and blessings around him. The gods abandoned Horus - he could absolutely be killed, because... he was killed. The evidence is there.

 

Then there's that whole 'Horus clone' deal, where Abaddon kills the clone of his father long before he's even blessed by Chaos to the degree he eventually becomes, but you can argue that's not really Horus, anyway. But the daemon primarchs - far above and beyond their original abilities and strengths - are almost definitely far, far past Horus's capabilities in a lot of ways. Yet they don't really lead the Chaos Marine Legions in terms of massive wars into the Imperium. Abaddon does. And there's several references in the lore mentioning how the Daemon Primarchs follow him out of the Eye of Terror in the 13th Black Crusade, beneath his banner, as well as increasingly visible references to the fact Abaddon brings them to heel or forms alliances with them, one way or another. And if he can master/control/ally with them, it's definitely arguable that Horus was as personally powerful as a daemon primarch.

 

Khayon, in The Talon of Horus, mentions a little of this in terms of what will come later in his chronicle. He cites how among his many titles, he's called Kingbreaker, and Khayon the Black, the mage that brought Magnus the Red to his knees... because Abaddon willed it. A fully-blessed M41 end-of-the-Dark-Millennium Abaddon? No, I'd not be willing to say Horus would wipe the floor with him, easily or otherwise. There's just no way to compare it beyond turbulent imagination, and the evidence isn't in Horus's favour beyond bombastic guesswork. I can say that probably Horus would win? Maybe? And then defeat my own agreement by citing evidence to the contrary, as above.

 

I get that Horus has a big mini, and many, many more words devoted to his power than Abaddon. And I definitely get that personal fighting skill is irrelevant on every level of what actually matters in these comparisons. But that's part of why it's unanswerable. Abaddon is absolutely beyond comprehension - for all we know, he might not even break a sweat fighting Horus. He certainly comes out on top when he rams the Talon of Horus through the clone's body.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth, IHF, I agree - especially with the irrelevancy and the disproportionate "badass" focus certain aspects of leaders get. But there's no clear-cut answer - the nature of it all implies there probably can't be an answer - and I think that's worth bearing in mind.

 

 

Loads of really good points. To be honest, I spent about 2 minutes considering changing that opening line, but decided to keep it for....dramatic effect? Either way it would be nowhere near as cut and dried as that suggested.

 

That stuff about Khayon seems really interesting - looks like Talon of Horus might be the first 40k novel I read since Feat of Iron - no pressure :P

 

I have to admit, my perception of Horus and Abaddon may be distorted by the fact that I willingly limit my exposure to 40k background - after all, the 40k universe is one in which I have to accept that the Chapter that got me into 40k has been destroyed and replaced with the abomination depicted in the Clan Raukaan supplement. Plus with the amount that 30k background has repeatedly shown us how incredibly awesome Primarchs are, it becomes difficult to see Horus getting toppled by Abaddon.

 

But yeah, as you say, there can't really be an answer - I mean, Siege of Terra Horus & 13th Black Crusade Abbadon can't really coexist - at those two separate points on the timeline they both stand as the main vessel for the power of Chaos, of which there can only be one.

[DarKnight]

I'm sure AD-B will have some awesome feats in store of the Emperor in Master of Mankind, the more I think about it, it just seems so mundane that he would use a sword or gun. Dude's aura alone disintegrates daemonkind.  Want to see some Titans bow when he walks by them.

[Wade Garrett]

@Cormac Airt:

 

Do you mind expounding on what you're getting at a bit more? Because when you talk about the Emperor limiting himself because Horus was his favored son, I'm not sure how I am supposed to read that besides "The Emperor was willing to let his spoiled brat of a son kill all his brothers and his daddy because the Emperor is a terrible father paternal love."

 

Also, all this talk of Abaddon as an unstoppable unkillable Doom Lord who casually backhands five Daemon Primarchs before breakfast is making me antsy about picking up ToH.

[Balthamal]

Without trying to hijack the tack the thread is taking, some of the FW guys said that the Emperor WILL get a model. And that he's going to be pretty much the last thing that comes out. Whether that's based on X, Y, Z, AA, BB etc occurring first or not I have no idea. But it would be excellent if true. Again by the same token, it would be impossible to accurately represent him on the tabletop in relation to his abilities

[A D-B]

 

 

Except the Black Legion supplement. Which also provides a beautiful picture of just how far some of the "failure Crusades" actually reach.

A fraction of a look, though. Without going too deeply into the process, there's plenty in those examples that are still very, very small-scale - they're likely to be feints and battlefronts in a much wider conflicts, rather than the focus of entire Crusades. A Black Crusade (with notable exceptions like the Ghost War) should probably make the Sabbat Worlds Crusade look like a day out in an English country garden.

 

Scale, scale, scale.

Oh I understand that. I just think its hard to call a Crusade that reaches from the Eye of Terror to the Maelstrom a failure since it basically provided a realspace connection from one point to another.

 

 

Yeah, that was more a "Some of that will be different in time" rather than an "Actually, you're wrong" deal, there. I mean, one of the principal appeals of the Black Legion series was that I was going to get to detail the Black Crusades - most of which no one knows anything about. So the Black Legion supplement dropping midway through the first novel (even with elements of collusion) was never going to jive perfectly with the much more detailed series dedicated to the events. There's nothing scandalous or juicy behind the scenes there, but suffice to say there were a great many words exchanged back and forth on the subject, given my plans for the Black Crusades and the very brief overviews in the supplement.

 

 

Also, all this talk of Abaddon as an unstoppable unkillable Doom Lord who casually backhands five Daemon Primarchs before breakfast is making me antsy about picking up ToH.

 

I'd be legitimately horrified and stunned if you honestly took that from my posts here, especially in context with all the stuff I've discussed about Abaddon and Chaos in the past.

[depthcharge12]

 

Wait... Are they going to give the Emperor stats?

 

 

On a chariot-sled pulled by wolves.

 

...actually, the Emperor on a chariot would rock. Persian king-style.

 

Actually he's on a chariot pulled by the 2nd and 11th primarchs

 

;)

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Also, all this talk of Abaddon as an unstoppable unkillable Doom Lord who casually backhands five Daemon Primarchs before breakfast is making me antsy about picking up ToH.

I'd be legitimately horrified and stunned if you honestly took that from my posts here, especially in context with all the stuff I've discussed about Abaddon and Chaos in the past.

Essentially, that post should be viewed with the context of me having an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other.

 

The angel is saying "Wade. Relax. Has ADB ever let you down before? Has he ever given any hint that the idea of However will super special snowflake invincible protagonist deal with this dilemma? Oh, he'll just use his invincible snowflake powers. Wasn't that a gripping read? fills him with anything other than revulsion? Take a chill pill." in one ear.

 

Meanwhile, the devil yells "HOPE IS THE FIRST STEP UPON THE ROAD TO DISAPPOINTMENT!" into the other.

 

;)

[evilmittens]

 

...given the unholy strength of all the Gods, their complete, unstinting support.

 

A lot of that description is better suited to Abaddon, not Horus. Abaddon has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, after all. Horus doesn't. Horus was given whatever it took to deceive him into doing the Gods' work, and at the last moment realised what he'd become against all reason and rhyme, when the Gods abandoned him. The Gods don't abandon Abaddon - he has the strength to resist them, which Horus never did, and yet they still work endlessly to be his patrons.

 

I realise it's heresy to go into that in the Age of Darkness forum, but Horus isn't the license's Big Bad / Antichrist in those absolute terms. Abaddon is. Horus was the flawed prototype.

 

I can see that, and understand that, but I still think what Cormac said about the Emperor was spot on in how I perceive him. I am looking forward to your take on him someday.

 

EDIT: Revenge of the Edit monster: Regarding other discussion, the one thing that the Heresy has an advantage of versus the regular license is the compact timeline of events, so that there is a meta story over the individual stories.  

[Marshal Rohr]

Right now the Meta seems to be Major Book, book about Borg-ed out Iron Hands fixing stuff while Salamanders typically offer counsel and a sneaky Raven Guard sneaks to find a new super weapon, Novella Anthology, Major Book. With a smattering of quick reads and limited editions here and there.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Meanwhile, the devil yells "HOPE IS THE FIRST STEP UPON THE ROAD TO DISAPPOINTMENT!" into the other.

*points at signature*

[Conn Eremon]

@Cormac Airt:

 

Do you mind expounding on what you're getting at a bit more? Because when you talk about the Emperor limiting himself because Horus was his favored son, I'm not sure how I am supposed to read that besides "The Emperor was willing to let his spoiled brat of a son kill all his brothers and his daddy because the Emperor is a terrible father paternal love."

You're over-exaggerating what was already hyperbole. But if we're going to be serious about this . . .

 

Horus was the most favored Primarch. Back in the day, we all (or maybe just me) used to think this was because he was the only Primarch to be raised like a son as intended. But now, we know that this extra amount of time was incredibly little. It seems more and more like the Emperor had actively made the choice to give favor to one over the others. Granted, Horus actually did earn that favor (though this doesn't mean that other Primarchs didn't), but it is clear that the Emperor showed favor to Horus from the very beginning. Was that favor love? I sincerely doubt it. It certainly was not the kind of father-son relationship that you or I would consider love. But showing him favor over others doesn't have to have anything to do with love. Does favoring a knee? A particular pair of gardening snips? One of your generals? The Emperor favored Horus over his other sons. Why he did it is ultimately beyond us. Maybe he had reasons we would understand, if we knew of it. Maybe we wouldn't. Maybe his reasons were valid. Maybe they weren't. Whatever. He did. And this colored his behavior. When the end came, he only made the decision to simply destroy Horus when the realization came that that which he had given so much favor was no longer there, or worth the effort. Love doesn't need to come into it. Hell, the Primarchs could have been portrayed from day one as nothing more than generals, hyper-astartes without any hint of a father-son-brother thing going on between each other and the Emperor, and that hesitation because of favoritism could still apply.

 

Of course, that is how it was portrayed. How it might actually be revealed to us once the series gets to that point, who knows. What we know is, itself, mythologized (I'm American, brutalizing the English language is what we do) hyperbole. We might end up seeing Horus wiping the floor with the Emperor until he is forced to kamikaze himself, leaving nothing but a broken shell that people will swear millennia later had totally stayed awake long enough to tell someone how to make a super-device that the Imperium must cling to for dear life. That a fledgling religion will twist about to have a more caring Emperor, personally betrayed by his greatest son, because that just sells well. Personally, my money's on a clone of the final duel between Neo and Smith.

 

But you also mentioned how this reflects on the other Primarchs, such as Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius, who had been by that point killed by Horus' actions, if not directly in one case. Basically, that the idea of the Emperor favoring Horus inhibiting his involvement in their fight, and this must mean that he was okay with Horus causing the damage he did.

 

And I am honestly at a loss as to how that's a thing. Mostly because . . . Well, the only way I can see that being a thing is if the Emperor actually did feel paternal love for Horus, blinding love. Because then you have yet another example of a parent just trying to hold onto their child, no matter the horrible, effed up things that child might have done, even to other members of the family. One more example among countless others. Which even then, it's not that they are okay with it. It's just that the loss of yet another child is too great a burden for them to bear.

 

But I don't believe that you believe that. So, I'm at a loss.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, if I can come down from Rant Mountain for a moment...

 

I actually do believe that the Emperor raised Horus like a son and loved him as he did no other Primarch, which was the old fluff and (IMO) was cemented by Horus Rising.

 

It's just that there comes a point when you look at what Sanguinus did, his sacrifice, at Malcador's sacrifice, and dangit, Emps! You're going to rank those against the possibility you might be able to talk the prodigal son off the ledge, and put the latter higher?

 

No, no, NO! You put your game face on, you harden your heart, you BE the tyrannical ruler humanity deserves and the one it needs right now, and you PUT. THAT. HERETIC. DOWN.

[Conn Eremon]

Well, if I can come down from Rant Mountain for a moment...

 

I actually do believe that the Emperor raised Horus like a son and loved him as he did no other Primarch, which was the old fluff and (IMO) was cemented by Horus Rising.

 

It's just that there comes a point when you look at what Sanguinus did, his sacrifice, at Malcador's sacrifice, and dangit, Emps! You're going to rank those against the possibility you might be able to talk the prodigal son off the ledge, and put the latter higher?

 

No, no, NO! You put your game face on, you harden your heart, you BE the tyrannical ruler humanity deserves and the one it needs right now, and you PUT. THAT. HERETIC. DOWN.

Well, if that's the case then I would have to say that this is pretty much what we got, minus the part where his will took a blow once he actually encountered Horus. It certainly seemed like the Emperor intended to murderize the Warmaster's very existence. But if he truly thought of him as a son, then wouldn't finally confronting him make him doubt his intentions? Make him think maybe there still is a chance?

 

At least until he realized that unless he ends Horus, Horus will kill him.

[Perrin]

Maybe it wasn't a hope of being able to bring Horus back from the brink, but rather hesitation to do what was needed. I don't believe that the Emperor could have ever allowed the thought of sparing him into his mind, especially when confronted with the corpse of Sanguinius.

That doesn't mean that he wouldn't hesitate however, not quite being able to bring himself to do it until he reaches the point of now or never.

The relationship between the Emperor and Horus isn't exactly a traditional father-son bond, but he was still something that he had made from himself and put a lot of effort and care into.

On the other hand, the had just ruined plans that have been 38,000 years in the making. Waste his ass.

[mc warhammer]

Agreed with Black Cohort- it's not as simple as " I love you and spit on all others". When someone has a special place in our hearts we do the most insane unforgivable things for them at ridiculous costs. Emotion is not logical.

[Clone]

Maybe it's not about Horus being a favoured son but just that he was his son. I don't believe the emperor thought of the primarchs in the way we view fatherhood today, I find it hard to justify how he treated some of the primarchs if that isn't the case.

 

Throughout the heresy the Emperor was off the frontlines and engaged in the War in the Webway. He hadn't faced any of his traitor sons personally. When the war came to terra and he teleported to the Vengeful Spirit then he may well have had the intention to wipe Horus off the face of existence. Then he saw the horror of what this war was for himself with all of his senses; Sanguinius dead and Horus loaded with Chaos power. Maybe in that moment he felt regret. Maybe he hesitated because his brightest son was in front of him and had become the emobidment of all the emperor had spent his entire life trying to avoid for humanity. Maybe he doubted himself and the choices he had made for humanity. Maybe he thought this was his fault.

 

Add in that Horus was matching him blow for blow, add in that the Emperor was closer to death than he had ever been before and the knowledge that his death would be the end for humanity. This was it. Maybe he hesitated because he was faced with the full truth and horror of what the heresy meant.

 

Perhaps he also felt sorry for Horus. The Emperor knows what chaos is more than anyone else and what it can do to the soul.

 

Maybe in that moment there really was some pang of fatherly guilt. I know when my kid falls and hurts herself that I feel sorry for her and want to make it better. When faced with the end of all things, the Emperor felt this and that was why, even after all Horus had done, he hesitated.

[carpediem]

Going back to the original topic, I'm going to go out on a limb a little and suggest that however powerful the Emperor was before the Heresy He's significantly stronger by the time M42 rolls around. Why? 

 

Prayer

 

Or, more specifically, the combined veneration of the Imperium's multiple trillion loyal subjects, over the last ten thousand years. The warp is fairly sensitive to belief, and to a greater or lesser extent that's where most of the E is by the end of the 41st millennium (because by this point the only thing tethering His soul to the real world appears to be willpower and a handful of living cells). I think, maybe, that if a significant portion of the Imperium ascribed a particular trait to the Emperor then the shear weight of that belief would force Him to assume that trait (whether or not He wants to, or is actually capable of doing so, which might be why He's gone round the bend). What does the Imperium believe the Emperor to be? Omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

 

The diet of psykers' souls can't be hurting that much either. 

[Adra'Melek]

What makes you think that the prayers goes to make the Emperor more powerful? It could easily (and IMO more likely) go to create another entity which is the Imperium's concept of the Emperor. Now it might be that the Emperor can draw in 'Emperor shaped thoughts' to make himself strong (if he even has a 'self' that is in any control whatsoever). Or (and again IMO more likely) that either this new entity takes it or the relevant chaos god drinks it in. Praying to Emperor to help you slay the enemy? Khorne chows down. Pray to the Emperor that your kids better themselves and rise through the ranks? Tzeentch likes his lips (Edit: Although Tzeentch does indeed like lips, it's more relevant that he licks them)

 

I like the idea that the Emperor is an unconscious, inanimate lens, which focuses the sacrificed psykers to act as a lighthouse (or am I mixing up stuff).  Then someone else is answering the prayers to keep the blief going...eithe rh Chaos 4 or new created Emperor X

[Black Cohort]

Wouldn't it have been better if the emperor had died after defeating Horus? The books have basically confirmed he is a perpetual in addition to everything else so if he had fully and completely died he should have resurrected shortly thereafter. Though it is far more grim dark for the imperium to accidentally screw itself over by trying to save the dying emperor.

[evilmittens]

Right now the Meta seems to be Major Book, book about Borg-ed out Iron Hands fixing stuff while Salamanders typically offer counsel and a sneaky Raven Guard sneaks to find a new super weapon, Novella Anthology, Major Book. With a smattering of quick reads and limited editions here and there.

I cant disagree with that, but overall there is a theme.

 

40k books rock, but there is no control over when something happened and where, so you get stories where such and such chapter fights on this side of the galaxy and loses 1/2 the chapter and then boom, next year another story where they lose 1/2 the chapter a week later.  I get the openness of the liscense, and appricate it, but some overarching cannon/truisms would be rocking.  Thats what the attraction for the 30k stuff comes from imo. People can identify a story, when it happened, and peg it into the greater good (no tau intended).

[Teetengee]

I really like and agree with the points brought up by many of you, particularly clone.

Only two things I have to say.

I'm fairly certain by our standards the emp was a terrible father as he was all work and no chillin with his chilins.

Furthermore, I am fairly certain Tzeentch hates lips, way too many beaks amongst his followers for any other explanation.