The Burning Blade

[Captain Idaho]

I've changed my mind folks. It's expensive but I decided not to look at the individual price of wargear but consider the overall cost of the final product.

 

I considered what I normally use, and consider acceptable, and I realised it was 190pts. That's a Storm Shield and Relic blade with Articifer Armour. Leading an Honour Guard squad this model has always been a powerful asset but just didn't quite have the offensive output of the highest performers whilst lacking Eternal Warrior meant he would be a liability for Slay the Warlord and being killed if he's taking the hits for the rest of the squad.

 

So what was my alternative?

 

Focus on what I wanted him to do was probably the most efficient use of his points. In tough environments like tournaments I found he was either too average offensively and I struggled against heavy infantry and Monstrous Creatures, or he outclassed the opponents so much they would shoot him instead but didn't have the stamina to take the firepower.

 

Since I'm embracing Drop Pod squads as an Ultramarines Commander, I am sure I will alleviate the pressure on the Honour Guard and Land Raider to reach the enemy lines and thus enable me to acceptably drop the Storm Shield from the Chapter Master's wargear. A combination of a tough transport and look out Sir! will also help keep my Chapter Master from needing a big old shield as a crutch.

 

So now I'm aware of the focus being more offensive it becomes a case of how to go about it? The initiative value of the Chapter Master is crucial in defeating many opponents (Ork Nobz, Grey Knights, Terminators etc) and lowering the amount of attacks coming back to the squad. Hitting at initiative with AP2 is amazing and when I consider what it does for its points the burning blade really is worthwhile.

 

I'm saving on defensive costs and just buying armour (for cheap) and the sword, so the costs of the Chapter Master become tolerable whilst still being horrific offensively. ;)

 

And if I can get Furious Charge as a Warlord Trait then it's a S8 weapon at initiative 5 and AP2!

 

If I consider my old generic HQ to be acceptable at 190pts then this more dangerous HQ at 200pts should be worthwhile surely.

 

What do people think about the manner in which I've made my conclusions? Also, what uses do people generally find for the blade and give me your overall verdict.

[dragon950]

That is what you should do, focus on the end point costs.  If you start looking at the individual point costs when you are building your character you will find ways to make him not as good in the interest of saving points.  I always start small with a point set in my mind, then go large if I can.

 

I always make sure that HQs and elites come after my troops and heavy fire support.  I can live with my heavy hitting units without all the glitz, but not without my army base.

[Captain Idaho]

I must admit I have been caught up in the past with points savings in list building I have sometimes cut too deeply and ended up with a less than ideal, or second rate, choice that ends up a waste of points because it can't do a decent job anyway.

 

The way I see it, for approximately the same points as before (10 more) I have a character that can cause more damage to more targets and still has a 4+ invulnerable save anyway!

[minigun762]

You have enough attacks to really put the hurt on another squad. Heck,;you have a reasonable chance of killing off a Riptide in a single round of combat.

 

Compared to the Relic Blade, the real benefit is that AP2. +1A and +1S are nice but cleaving through other HQs or elite infantry at I5 is potent.

[SyNidus]

To be fair, it's something I keep thinking of every now and again. The reason I abandoned the BB was because I once made the mistake of sending him against a command squad with an apothecary. The CM didn't die but he was tied down for 3 turns of combat! Absolutely wasteful. Nonetheless though, who doesn't love a flaming sword?

[minigun762]

To be fair, it's something I keep thinking of every now and again. The reason I abandoned the BB was because I once made the mistake of sending him against a command squad with an apothecary. The CM didn't die but he was tied down for 3 turns of combat! Absolutely wasteful. Nonetheless though, who doesn't love a flaming sword?

Might have just been good luck on your opponents part.

5+ save will only go so far.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that is a little bad luck.

 

7 attacks at initiative 5 and AP2 is just amazing. Even Ork Nobz in mega armour should be worried about this guy (perhaps not full squad but as Marines we should be using our brains to shoot a few dead first eh).

[Axagoras]

how does he get 7 attacks? chapter banner? also if you dont take a storm shield so you get IDed by s8+ attacks nice and quick. I never really liked the burning blade, over the course of several games hes died a bit early because of taking wounds from the blade. Also personally s7 just doesnt cut it for me, with tons of threats being t6 or t8 or having a AV I need to be able to mulch them fast and only s8 can do that job. also 1 smashkill will solo that honor guard blob in 2 round of combat... the only time i see the BB being useful is if you can shoehorn in hammerhand somehow to make it s9, cause if you are fighting chaff units the teeth of terra is the way to go there since it wounds on 2s and ignores chaff armor

[Ishagu]

I think a Thunder Hammer is still the preferable choice.

 

Str 8 and the Concussive special rule makes it the superior choice on a hq equipped with the shield eternal.

[Azash]

I run a Burning Blade/Grav Pistol on my CM or captain depending on the points.

 

Its pure offensive power at its best. The Grav effect of concussive makes the blind rule on the burning blade sweet. The pistol gives you an additional attack that is ap2 as well. So every attack you make is ap2.

 

If your going pure offense its something you may want to consider. Its a lot of slain heretics in the name of the God Emperor for a mere 220 :)

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with Thunder Hammers is you strike last. That's not going to stop Terminator squads and Mega Nobz or even a squad of Berzerkers or a Riptide from putting wounds on your squad. Later on in a game when there are less models around, your numbers need to be protected so going first is a necessary requirement.

 

As for the risk of instant death; that's a case of choosing your battles and careful use of the nearest Red Shirt. In the same way you'd probably not send a Chapter Master with Thunder Hammer in against 20+ Orks, a Burning Blade Chapter Master doesn't take 5 Mega Armoured Nobz.

 

@ Azash: I did consider the grav pistol. Points weren't permitting in my core list but I might be able to find some.

[SyNidus]

Definitely like the idea of Burning Blade & Grav Pistol. It has the potential to make our hero an incredible character/MC killer.

[Lucien Eilam]

The pistol gives you an additional attack that is ap2 as well. So every attack you make is ap2.

 

If you're using the Burning Blade all your attacks are AP2 anyway. A grav pistol gives you an extra attack, but any close combat weapon will do that. The pistol's AP value is irrelevant in close combat. Read the "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons" and "More than One Weapon" sections near the start of the chapter on Weapons.

[Gideon999]

I think what he means is that he can fire the grav pistol before charging, which counts as AP2 in the shooting phase and is also concussive.   So if he hits and wounds with the pistol he is going to ignore armour and reduce the target models initiative to 1 for the following combat.   

 

This assumes that single pistol shot wounds (which it might not) and it hits the model he wants to concuss (which unless he is charging a single model or MC, is probably unlikely as well).

 

I can see the idea there, but I dont know that it would be hugely reliable for the 15pt tax of the pistol vs just keeping the bolt pistol.   *shrug*

[minigun762]

Depends on what you're shooting at. Stripping a wound from a Riptide or killing a terminator is worth the point cost.

[Captain Idaho]

Making a Bloodthirster strike last before you carve into it with your Burning Blade and the rest of the squad also pays for itself.

[Gideon999]

For sure, just depends on what you are facing I guess.    If you know in advance or your meta is heavy with that type of target it would be a good value for 15pts.    

[minigun762]

Str 8 and the Concussive special rule makes it the superior choice on a hq equipped with the shield eternal.

Does this logic hold up when you only have a normal Storm Shield?

[Captain Idaho]

 

Str 8 and the Concussive special rule makes it the superior choice on a hq equipped with the shield eternal.

Does this logic hold up when you only have a normal Storm Shield?

I know you didn't ask me, but my opinion leans towards a no.

 

It's a big risk taking hits that cause instant death even with a 3+ save.

 

And of course taking the Eternal Shield and Thunder Hammer bumps up the cost of the character to more expensive than the burning blade.

[minigun762]

 

 

Str 8 and the Concussive special rule makes it the superior choice on a hq equipped with the shield eternal.

Does this logic hold up when you only have a normal Storm Shield?

I know you didn't ask me, but my opinion leans towards a no.

 

It's a big risk taking hits that cause instant death even with a 3+ save.

 

And of course taking the Eternal Shield and Thunder Hammer bumps up the cost of the character to more expensive than the burning blade.

Well the question was open to all, quote was more about the original reference idea.

 

Edit: My thinking was more along the lines of power fist & storm shield. Roughly half the price of the standard weapons but very similar results for the majority of fights.

[Ishagu]

In a big squad of Terminators with storm shields you can always look out sir a str8+ hit, but if you intend a character to tank anything significant then probably no.

 

Stormshields on ICs did get a buff in a way as a lot of MCs are below str8 and much less likely to damage you with or attempt a smash.

 

At the same time you don't want to get punked by a random Ork Nob... Don't forget the shield eternal grants Adamantium Will which is very useful against witch fire powers.

[minigun762]

I see the love for the relic shield if you're investing 220+ points into your HQ but it seems wasted on a 150ish point model.

It might be that everyone only runs Chapter Master beatstick HQs.

[Captain Idaho]

I've found that even our toughest HQ will die if the opponent wants him dead. I'm going for offensive power and 7 dice just makes me weak at the knees.

 

(For those who doubt - 4 base + 1 charging + 1 extra weapon + 1 Chapter Banner)

 

I'd like to point out that we often see Chapter Masters with Eternal Shields and Thunder Hammers in non Honour Guard squads. This means they are operating in a different manner. This type of Chapter Master operates as a miniature Daemon Prince so to speak. Mine with a burning blade is about bulking out an Honour Guard squad which doesn't have an Invulnerable save and thus won't want to go for those same hard targets. I guess it's different play styles.

 

I mean, I'm an Ultramarine. I shoot tactically what I can't handle up close. ;)

[Axagoras]

guess thats where we differ, I use 2 chapter masters, with a da libby and 5 ravenwing vets as a hammer i throw at the enemy line and force them to deal with it. with 20 rerolling to hit, and usually wounding on 2 attacks at I4 with rending I can usually do enough damage to elite blocks before i1 (from shooting and cc) or cripple hordes of chaff with them as well.

I mean, I'm an Iron Hand. I get n close, shoot, and purge. FOR THE EMPEROR AND THE OMNISSIAH

[Azash]

Context is huge in this case 220+ pts and near invincibility is great but if half your games are against Dark Eldar is it a good choice. If your running into Mega Nobs and Nurgle Greater Deamons is the same load out a good choice. Do you run them as tank support for centurions, in a biker squad, with the same 220 pts of gear or out of drop pods, with honor guard etc?

Its not a question of the right build its a question of is it the right build in the context of your list and meta.

 

If you want maximum killing ability your best bet is the Burning Blade w/ artificer armor. A 55 pt upgrade on a 3+ save is asking for trouble. Survivability is less of an issue due to the transport as well.

 

If predominantly your going after squads of infantry a grav pistol is not that great a choice. If you want to go after things like Riptides and Wraith knights and various other MC's in addition its worth the 15 pts.

 

Think of it like two ends of a spectrum. On one end you have the IH Biker CM with SE/TH/AA for all intents and purposes a miniature greater deamon of nurgle, he takes on big uglies by wearing them down but easy to bog down against groups. In the middle you have the CM with BB/AA/GP/bike with the ability to take on moderate groups as well as some big uglies kind of like your blood thirster. Then the other end you have a the CM/BB/AA/squad (honor guard, vv, assault marines etc) a cheaper less durable character (leaves pts for a support squad) individually but has the power to wipe out any squad in the game but not so great against the big uglies I would liken this to a Keeper of Secrets.

 

Different tools for different jobs.