Dark Angels have 150 chapters?

[Phoebus]

It would be extremely difficult to remain covert when wielding 150 chapters. Beyond that, meetings of the inner circles would result in several battle companies worth of HQ units. That's basically 200 - 300 chapter masters together at once. That's insane.

To begin with, it would 150 Chapter Masters.

Beyond that, I don't think you need to worry about this sort of meeting. Remember, the relationship is supposed to amount to a secret legion. Even before the Horus Heresy series redefined legions as numbering 100,000 or more warriors, how often did you read about the Angels of Absolution, etc., having secret meetings with Azrael?

I honestly think most of the relationship between the Dark Angels and their Successors of the Unforgiven comes down to constant, covert coordination of efforts where the Hunt for the Fallen is concerned. Most of this would be done vis-a-vis Astropaths and the efforts of the Chapters' respective Libraria.

The way I look at it, the Unforgiven never deploy somewhere randomly. The Librarians of the Inner Circle throughout the Unforgiven cast their net for the Fallen, and the various Chapters scour the Galaxy seeking out those clues and omens that have been reported to them. When a major threat is located, perhaps forces from more than one Chapter of the Unforgiven responds - and that's when the High Lords get a little more suspicious. The largest threats, of course, such as the 13th Black Crusade AND Cypher showing up as the Voice of the Emperor AND a number of Fallen congregating, call for the full strength of numerous Chapters.

[twopounder]

It would be extremely difficult to remain covert when wielding 150 chapters. Beyond that, meetings of the inner circles would result in several battle companies worth of HQ units. That's basically 200 - 300 chapter masters together at once. That's insane.

To begin with, it would 150 Chapter Masters.

Beyond that, I don't think you need to worry about this sort of meeting. Remember, the relationship is supposed to amount to a secret legion. Even before the Horus Heresy series redefined legions as numbering 100,000 or more warriors, how often did you read about the Angels of Absolution, etc., having secret meetings with Azrael?

I honestly think most of the relationship between the Dark Angels and their Successors of the Unforgiven comes down to constant, covert coordination of efforts where the Hunt for the Fallen is concerned. Most of this would be done vis-a-vis Astropaths and the efforts of the Chapters' respective Libraria.

The way I look at it, the Unforgiven never deploy somewhere randomly. The Librarians of the Inner Circle throughout the Unforgiven cast their net for the Fallen, and the various Chapters scour the Galaxy seeking out those clues and omens that have been reported to them. When a major threat is located, perhaps forces from more than one Chapter of the Unforgiven responds - and that's when the High Lords get a little more suspicious. The largest threats, of course, such as the 13th Black Crusade AND Cypher showing up as the Voice of the Emperor AND a number of Fallen congregating, call for the full strength of numerous Chapters.

I started out with HQ's and meant it :P. I was tired when I wrote it and Meant 200 - 300 Grand Master's and Chaplains (interrogators obviously know what's going on). It's likely each chapter has at least 1 interrogator, thus 2 participants x 150 = 300.

Anyway, why wouldn't they meet. It seems illogical that they wouldn't have a summit of some manner to discuss future movements and exchange information on the fallen.

You don't think they're communicating this over channels that have any chance of being decoded do you? We're talking about the future of the entire Unforgiven, not just the Dark Angels. The only way for this to work is to have everyone in a single room for a meeting. Hell, our governments can't even get communication straight with phones. What makes you think it would be easier on opposite ends of the galaxy?

[Phoebus]

I don't think they would meet precisely because it would draw a bunch of attention.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they use events like their version of the Feast of Blades to justify getting various members of the Inner Circle together, but recurring meetings of all of the Unforgiven Chapter Masters would be a dead giveaway.

 

Even discounting such dangers, such meetings would be about making sure that everyone is "on message", to use political speak.  They'd be discussing broad strategy, not specific moves in such conclaves.  The Hunt for the Fallen is an ongoing, galaxy-wide chase that involves thousands of potential targets displaced through space and time.  It needs to be balanced against ongoing, galaxy-wide campaigns against the Mutant, the Heretic, and the Traitor.  It takes months to make it from Segmentum Obscurus to Segmentum Ultima, and that's assuming the ship in question doesn't arrive decades or centuries earlier or later than it departed.  You simply can't be getting everyone together on a recurring basis to tell them which move to make next.

 

Where the efficacy of Astropathy is concerned, we know from various novels and audio dramas (the latest of which include "The Ascension of Balthazar", Ravenwing, and Master of Sanctity) that, yes, the Dark Angels do use it to convey information pertaining to the Hunt.  And why not?  Increasingly, Astropathy is shown less as a means of sending things in e-mail format and more as a discipline of symbolic messaging.  :)

[Volt]

Of the total Chapters (1000), I would find it extremely hard to swallow the Dark Angels gene line having contributed even 100 total Chapters. 50-75 seems like it would be a much more likely number, and the upper end of that scale to me even feels off. 25-50 Chapters would make the DA about 2.5-5% of all total Marines in existence, which seems in line with a gene line that the High Lords are reluctant to use.

Not to mention it would prevent the Dark Angels from being laughably overpowered compared to all the other Chapters. Dark Angels still operate loosely as a legion, and well, 150,000 astartes available for Azrael to call upon is just nuts.

 

Although, how large as a Legion were the Dark Angels anyway, and how many exactly turned traitor on Caliban?

[Phoebus]

See my post on the previous page about potential numbers of the Dark Angels.

The traitor numbers don't play into that, by the way. Luther rebelled just after Isstvan III, and at that time he only had his training chapters and four thousand newly trained Space Marines.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Dark Angels appearing overpowered. One hundred Chapters (mind you, I'm not advocating that specific number) constitutes 10% of the Adeptus Astartes, of which three First founding Chapters either have no Successors currently (Space Wolves) or have very, very few Successors (Raven Guard, Salamanders). The Dark Angels - distrusted or not, unused during subsequent Foundings or not - were never going to be worse than sixth in terms of numbers within the Adeptus Astartes. Given this, 10% doesn't sound off.

Plus, remember, the Unforgiven are subtle in coordinating their efforts. It's not like Azrael calls up Successors on a regular basis to support his conventional campaigns. We're talking about covertly coordinating efforts against very specific, very rare targets.