The Nuance of Chaos

[Noctus Cornix]

Recently I joined the Eternal Crusade forums, if for no other reason than to appease a friend of mine. However I've been lurking through the threads here and there and a particular thread crossed my eye. You can see the entirety of the thread here, but to put the simplest form of the original post's question , it was

Is Chaos still sort of nuanced where you end up feeling sorry for them or are they just pure, boring, "let's burn the world because we can" stick figure Heretics to give the Imperium a purpose villains?

My response was as follows.

This is something that once plagued me for the longest time. As an avid fan of the Lore and overall Chaos lover, I've pondered why exactly I felt like Chaos seemed... well 1 dimensional in 40k, for lack of a better term. I've delved through most books that ever involve Chaos, poured over the Liber Chaotica more times than I can count, and researched everything I can on the many references and inspirations Chaos draws upon. My conclusion was actually something that surprised me and yet, when I thought about it, it just seemed so blatantly obvious.

The simplest way to put it is that in the transition between Fantasy and 40k, Chaos and the Dark Gods do not change one bit. What changes is the medium by which they are presented. Allow me to explain.

In Warhammer Fantasy, the face of Chaos in the realm of reality is that of the Nords, people of the frigid Northerlands who have lived for generations under the watchful eye of the Chaos Gods. While these men and women most make take on the horrifying visage of massive warriors clad in thick iron armour bearing skulls and flayed skins while displaying gruesome mutations, these people are still human beings. They are a culture, an entire tribal civilization that sees the Gods not as 'evil' but as the most fervent passions of the living spirit made manifest but for all the terrible atrocities they commit, the Gods are still merciful and true to them. A Warrior of Nurgle may be clad in pestilent armour bearing bloated and rotting disease that kills hundreds, but he could very well be a Father of five, raiding Imperial outposts to feed his family. A Champion of Khorne could take the severed heads of a hundred men and women one day, only to return and week later to his home, lift up his beautiful daughter, kiss her forehead, then take her out to the stables where he brought her very own pony for her birthday. A Champion of the Gods could lead her warriors to commit terrible atrocities the likes of which no human being in their right mind could comprehend, but to her it is all for the prosperity and welfare of her people as much as it is for the glory of her Gods.

What we see here is something that is human, perhaps horrifying and even alien in its concept, but still it is human. And it is that human aspect that gives Chaos its nuance, its depth and layers between the depravity and the monstrous. Yes there are daemons, monsters of all kinds, but in the end it is humans that drive Chaos forward in Warhammer Fantasy.

In Warhammer 40,000 however, the face of Chaos is something very different. Certainly there are traitorous humans that follow Chaos, far more numerous than any force that mostly likely numbers in the several trillions. Entire sectors and civilizations worship the Gods, loyal members of the Imperium and outcasts alike falling to the worship of the Gods. However, the face of Chaos in 40k is the Chaos Space Marines. Space Marines have always been the driving point of 40k, that one defining factor above all else that has attracted hundreds of thousands of boys and girls alike to enjoy this hobby. It honestly comes as no surprise that Chaos Space Marines are the most highlighted factor of the Chaos faction, despite how significantly fewer there are than mortal followers of Chaos. And this is where we see our issue.

Space Marines are humans, yes this is a fact, but they are humans that were taken at 12 years old, brainwashed and mutilated to become 8 foot tall killing machines in 2 tons of ceramite warplate hurling bolt rounds at whatever is deemed an 'enemy' and they are not even supposed to so much as flinch. Whether you wish to debate if a Space Marine is human or not is irrelevant, the fact remains the human element has been taken out of the defining figure that represents Chaos. What we see is not a human who feels love, joy, passion, fear, and sorrow as we do, but a child who was never allowed to grow up, a tool for war that knows only war and exists only for war. What emotions and ambition they have is centered around this need for conflict. Its written into their DNA. Its drilled into their skull before they could even reach puberty.

Because of this, what we see most often of Chaos is a very single minded aspect of it, and while it may seem a tad one dimensional at times, it is also very interesting in its own way. Space Marines are autistic creatures, single minded in their drive for violence and war. For this, the Chaos Gods are almost never an actual God but a means to an end, a patron they supplies them the one and only thing that all Space Marines covet above all else, power. Yes, there are some exceptions, but each and every one of these 'exceptions' are still driven by violence. The Emperor's Children who seek new heights of pleasure and experience quest for battle with an almost self-destructive glee because only War can offer them a true sense of purpose. The Word Bearers seek to appease their Gods but the do this only through destruction, slaughter, and enslavement because its the only thing they know. The Night Lords couldn't care less for actual battle but they'd rather delight themselves in butchering the helpless and the weak. Each and Every Chaos Space Marine is driven by war, for war and very little else. That is what they were trained and bred to do.

But is there still nuance and depth to Chaos in 40k? Yes, actually, but you have to look at the past rather than present to have a realistic gauge of the sheer depth of it all. Warhammer 40,000 is a dystopian gothic fantasy, a lament of the golden age long past that was the Imperium of Mankind led by the just and true Emperor. This occurred over ten thousands years ago in the lore, but it is the defining and tragic trait that must be anazlyed to look at the Chaos Space Marines. Each of the traitor Legions had once dedicated their lives to mankind, to protecting humanity and realizing the potential of the Emperor's dream. Each of these Legions were given a Primarch, their fathers, lords, and supreme generals of which their word was law above all else. For a killing machine soldier who is told by their father to turn upon that which they had once sworn to protect, for many there is no question to it, and for those who did, they were brutally slaughtered without mercy by their own brothers. There was no room for question, no room for discussion. You did as your Primarch ordered of you and you believed his every word for they are all you have in life. For many of the traitors, they believed they were doing the right thing, overthrowing a tyrant Emperor who had abandoned them to fight his wars for him while he sat on Terra growing fat from the taxes he gained from each world they bled and died to reclaim for him. Some believed that Horus was to lead mankind to a true Golden Age for only he could truly lead humanity. Others just didn't care, how could they? They were raised and brainwashed to kill and slaughter what else do they have?

Each and every single one of the traitor legions has a very unique and so very sad story of its own, one that echoes through ten thousand years to show the broken fragments of what once was and could have been, and the monstrosity that it is now. For the Black Legion, they once called themselves the Sons of Horus, fully dedicated and enraptured by the charisma of their father that they so willingly and blindly became fodder to realize their twisted Primarch's ambitions. For the World Eaters you see a once proud legion that is already broken by the Butcher's Nails, led by a Primarch who does not love them and would have rather died before ever meeting them. For the Emperor's Children, you have the warriors who seek to find perfection and the appreciation of their father, only to be witlessly led by the hand of a daemon in their Primarch's skin. For the Death Guard, you have true protectors of mankind who are led into a trap of endless torment with their only escape to become the undying monstrosities that kill all life around them. For the Thousand Sons we see a Primarch who tried to warn the Emperor of the traitor Horus, only to be played a fool by Chaos and so tragically his sons were slaughtered by the Space Wolves. For the Iron Warriors, you have the Legion that was never shown an inch of gratitude for all their sacrifices, who were shunned and forgotten, led only by the need for war. For the Alpha Legion you have a Primarch and Legion that is perhaps unsure of its own way, its own purpose, and its own identity that they are now lost in the schemes and plans that they themselves created. For the Night Lords you have a Legion of children who grew up on a world that knew only crime, shunned by a father who hated each and every one of them and sought their eternal unending torment. And for the Word Bearers, the brotherhood so dedicated and loyal to their beloved Father that they allowed themselves to become his pawns, his witless children who he used like tokens to try to satisfy the emptiness inside him.

So, when you look to a Khorne Berzerker of the World Eater, a mindless raving mad man on the field of battle screaming to the sky as he swings his chainaxe killing every man and woman in his bath with wanton need for slaughter, remember that he was once also a child taken from his home, brainwashed, mutilated, and turned into the perfect soldier only to be brought to a father that denounced him, that would never never love him and would force upon him the burning agonizing pain of the Butcher's Nails bolted directly into his skull. A device that slowly kills him and bleeds away his sanity with violence and carnage being the one and only reprieve he has from the pain.

Its a tad bit lengthy, but I was actually quite proud of it and I thought it would actually be an interesting and productive conversation piece to be put here. So what do you think, my brothers? Does Chaos in 40k have nuance and depth? Am I right? Am I wrong?

Let's get those little gray cells singing, yes?

[Zeller]

Edited for conciseness. I feel this most accurately sums up my preceding hideous block of text.

 

The depth comes from the sad and sorrowful story of what could have been but through foolish ambition, selfishness, and a host of other uniquely human traits the astartes so desperately pretended they were beyond we instead see what they became and as a result how all of Humanity felt the consequences.

[Forté]

Have to admit to agreeing with your response. It's been helped too having authors like A D-B writing Chaos Marines in the way he does. Showing World Eaters in situations where the nails are more dormant and Night Lords that are not purely out to murder every mortal they go near.

 

Good topic too.

[Teetengee]

Claps. Well done sir. And yes, yes they do show nuance.

[incinerator950]

While I agree with forte, I pity Chaos Marines based on the lackluster codexes. Despite the NL and WB series, I feel often enough a sense of dissapointment from the bizzaro mustache twirling astartes we're commonly depicted because Captain Sue needs a nemesis. The cut throat animosity gets old very quickly when the production of power armor troopers and shere lack of competence seems to catalyze ZEAL.

 

It's enough to galvanize my interest in my own imagination, which thankfully hasn't dulled from the constant headaches and sanity drop.

[minigun762]

I think you nailed a key point, which is that it's Space Marines which remove some of the elements of Chaos that may add to a deeper understanding of it.

 

As beings built for war, their set of driving forces will likely be smaller than a mortals (no desire for wealth for example) .

 

Looking at some of the Chaos novels where Marines are not center stage to see how it feels to be a mortal follower of Chaos (who isn't only a bullet sponge). Flesh and Iron and the rest of the series was good this way.

[Sception]

One dimensional villains can be boring, sure, but it can be taken too far the other way.  Pity party sad sack bad guys who were all forced or tricked or whatever into joining the bad side or aren't really bad guys at all or think they're the good guys and are only fighting on team evil due to a misunderstanding, that all can get just as boring and one dimensional, and in reaching for some arbitrary sense of 'depth' often succeeds only in giving up any sense of menace or intimidation that they might otherwise have had.

 

Which is why I play Black Legion, why I follow the despoiler.  In reaching for 'depth', all of the primarchs and all of the other legions have at this point been compromised in the fluff.  Of the various figures among the Chaos Legions, very few other than Abaddon came to their current positions purely of their own volition, and in full knowledge of what they were doing, of the choices they were making and their consequences.  Abaddon's story isn't one of a fall from grace, but rather one of an ascension to power.  Abaddon chose to become the Warmaster of the Dark Gods, in order to obtain the power needed to tear down the civilization he had once helped build out of hatred and spite, and then made himself such by his own force of will.  He wasn't manipulated like Fulgrim, he wasn't declared a heretic and attacked by the Imperium over a misunderstanding like Ahriman, he didn't 'pretend' to turn to chaos due to some prophecy that by doing so he could destroy it, like Alpharius.  While you might say that makes him a one dimensional villain, I say that makes him a character with agency, and IMO a character without agency less compelling than one without depth.

 

My chaos marines crave revenge, not 'understanding'.  You can keep your tragic figures, your moping relics of the Heresy.  I chose chaos marines to play the arch enemies of the 41st millenium, not the ghosts of the 31st.

[Kol Saresk]

Funnily enough, I want to try something where some Word Bearers are fully conscious of where the Legion is heading as the Heresy begins. And then gets sent to Calth because it served as Kor Phaeron's pet hound because it thought it was serving the will of Lorgar. And then it finds out why it was sent there. And you know what it does? It chooses to fight for redemption in the eyes of Lorgar.

 

People who do it with their eyes wide open, find out just how bad it can get, and then choose to keep on doing it anyway. Sort of like people in real life.

[Jareddm]

While I understand your perspective, I feel there's another point that can be mentioned.  While a chaos marine might be entirely dedicated to war in one form or another, war can be a complicated beast.  A chaos marine's loyalty and energy can be pulled in many different directions.  The demands of a CSM's personal needs, of their commander, of their primarch (if they still fight for them), and of their god need not all be in harmony, and that conflict of interest can add the depth that people might be looking for in their CSM characters.  In addition, there can be a tremendous difference between those who once fought alongside the primarchs, and those that were originally from a later founding.  While a marine from the HH might have a long and tragic past, a newly turned marine might still harbor loyalties for their homeworld or those who shared their homeworld, such as Badab.

[incinerator950]

I chose the Violators for the simple paintjob and a simple background I can mould and add too.

[Kol Saresk]

While I understand your perspective, I feel there's another point that can be mentioned.  While a chaos marine might be entirely dedicated to war in one form or another, war can be a complicated beast.  A chaos marine's loyalty and energy can be pulled in many different directions.  The demands of a CSM's personal needs, of their commander, of their primarch (if they still fight for them), and of their god need not all be in harmony, and that conflict of interest can add the depth that people might be looking for in their CSM characters.  In addition, there can be a tremendous difference between those who once fought alongside the primarchs, and those that were originally from a later founding.  While a marine from the HH might have a long and tragic past, a newly turned marine might still harbor loyalties for their homeworld or those who shared their homeworld, such as Badab.

That's very true. But it can't truly add that humanitarian aspect that something like working a field by day and then at night, singing your four year old sister to sleep before grabbing a weapon and going out with a raiding party only to be killed at the ripe old age of twelve can.

 

That's the kick about Space Marines, they're human but they're thought process are very inhuman.

[incinerator950]

They're not supposed to be. They were designed to be expendable (substantial they may be) shock troopers to fight the wars regular meat can handle with higher casualties. That they were bartered from Chaos gods to create the Primarchs. Like the Thunder Warriors I honestly think the Emperor would have merely discarded them if he conquered the Galaxy.

[Kol Saresk]

Honestly, ever since I made a statement along the lines "The Emperor is a savior who got tired of doing it the right way since it never works", I honestly believe that part of his ultimate plan was to force Humanity into a state where it didn't need him, and then he would remove himself and everything he used to get it there so it couldn't fall back.

[incinerator950]

I've never really believed that. The dark age of tech was brought on by technology turning on its creatorsand severing humanity by warp storms.

 

His plan to strengthen humanity by guiding psychic evolution would probably end up with another cataclysm. Could you imagine another Slaanesh?

[MaliGn]

In 'know no fear', there is a passage that discusses guilleman's theoretical that following the crusade that the astartes will have to put aside their weapons and serve as the administrators and governors of countless worlds. Ironically, these ideals of diplomacy and negotiation are best seen within the shattered remains of the traitor legions as they make pacts with daemons and rule the worlds of the eye. All the while the puppets of the corpse emperor are still failing to complete the work of the crusade and are further entrenched in the eternal war of the far future than they were when they were founded. So I would in fact suggest that in fact it is the loyalists that are two-dimensional heroes of man, (always heroic, all the time!) Whereas their chaotic counterparts have the freedom to do a lot more than war. (Which is why we are fighting the long war after all)

 

In a way the merest snippets that used to form the background of the legions which sounded good as a single paragraph, have been expanded on almost to breaking point. It puts an enormity of pressure on the writers to maintain the original concept while working to embellish and explain, often subverting received knowledge to create more sympathetic characters.

 

After all there is more nuance in still being able to remember the bitter betrayals of the heresy and act upon them with an ultimate goal of the freedom of humanity, than there is in wanting to emulate the ultramarines.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Which is why I play Black Legion, why I follow the despoiler.  In reaching for 'depth', all of the primarchs and all of the other legions have at this point been compromised in the fluff.  Of the various figures among the Chaos Legions, very few other than Abaddon came to their current positions purely of their own volition, and in full knowledge of what they were doing, of the choices they were making and their consequences.

 

If that's your view then I fear you may be disappointed by A D-B's newest series.

[Sception]

Perhaps I will be.  We'll see.  Sadly very much of Black Library fiction aimed at chaos or from the chaos perspective chooses to add 'depth' by making their protagonists not 'really evil', just duped, or tricked, or manipulated, or betrayed, or otherwise used.  They take these great characters and try to make them deep and tragic by stealing away all of their volition and agency, making them mere puppets of powers and events beyond their knowledge or understanding.  The traitor primarchs in particular have suffered badly from this.  I haven't read all the heresy books myself, but from the ones I have read it's only characters like Erebus or Kor Phaeron or Typhus who actually got to act under their own volition, while all the primarchs basically had all of their decisions made for them, which IMO doesn't make characters deep and compelling, it makes them weak and uninteresting.  The primarchs should have been larger than life heroes of legend who shaped the fate of the galaxy, and instead they've all been replaced at this point with a bunch of blind children, the tools by which other characters shaped the galaxy in their stead, and I just can't get behind that.

 

I am hopeful that ADB will opt not to take Abaddon down that path, but if he does, then oh, well.  It's not like there aren't half a dozen other representations of the character that I dislike or disagree with, and I'll always have the Black Legion supplement for a version of Abaddon who was allowed to take actions and make choices that mattered.

[Teetengee]

Or perhaps not, there are ways to add depth to Abbadon without taking away the "I always knew what I was doing" feel.

[Sception]

He doesn't have to have always known what he was doing.  I like the supplements presentation of an early post-heresy abaddon, devoid of purpose, wandering the Eye in search of meaning and a new path.  But from the time he returns and founds the Black Legion, imo his path should have been chosen, by himself, and he should walk it under his own volition, force the universe to comply by his own skill and strength and force of personality.  No, he doesn't have to know everything in advance all the time or how every event will turn out, but he shouldn't be presented as a tool, or as someone who was tricked or fooled or manipulated into his current path.

 

IMO, anyway.

[Teetengee]

^^^ I meant it in that sort of sense rather than the magnificent :cuss sense

[MaliGn]

Like malisteen I've not read many of the Horus heresy novels, however the ones I have read have given me the impression that the instigator of the whole affair was Lorgar, and moreover, that he was fully aware of the sacrifices he and his legion would have to make in order to bring the primordial truth to the galaxy. After all what he realised was that on worlds across the galaxy the patterns of worship by the indigenous human settlers were all versions of the same thing, from Colchis to Cadia, these old religions were hard wired into humanity. Following the voyage of the Orpheo's Lament he had the confirmation he needed, he made his own pilgrimage into the eye and tasked his lieutenants to begin the work that would bring truth to the galaxy. While others may have been tricked, manipulated, or otherwise coerced into damnation, Lorgar knew what the cost would be, and was still willing to pay it, even though he knew it would cost him his brothers and father.

[Sception]

The impression I got from First Heretic was that Kor Phaeron and his crony Erebus made all of Lorgar's most important choices for him, often even without his knowledge and behind his back, and without that manipulation and basically outright betrayal by his most trusted advisor he would never have turned to chaos in the first place.

[incinerator950]

I don't really read BL to begin with. There's the long and short.

[Marshal Rohr]

I've always felt like Chaos would be more nuanced if the presentation of worship was tiered. A farmer butchers a goat for a successful harvest. A dancer spends all night practicing until her feet bleed. A doctor knowingly infects a patient with a virus that will cure some ailments, but might make the patient worse in the long run. A magister prays that his latest scheme will win him more influence at court. Simple things, that ordinary people do in an attempt to rationalize their world, would be the most common form of worship. 

 

Only at the highest levels, the Chaos Space Marines and fully indoctrinated mortal followers, would do the obscene rituals that grant the most power because ordinary people wouldn't be willing to do such grotesque acts to increase the happiness. The nightmarish practices that take place within the Eye would be almost unheard of to small cults across the galaxy. One of the things that I appreciated most from the First Heretic was that any religious  worship ultimately fuels chaos. Because the player assumes the role of the more powerful factions, the nuance of less powerful forms of worship is lost because the player is instantly given a character whose whole life is spent deep within the highest dogmas and traditions of Chaos worship. 

 

To me, the galaxy isn't divided into people who worship the Emperor and people who perform human sacrifice for power. Chaos could be as nuanced as a disgruntled labor movement seeking to over throw their masters by turning to the old Smith God for favor. It could be a population in the throws of plague who look to their people's ancient God of Healing to save them. It could be a group of warriors who live their lives for the thrill and try to experience as much as they can before they die, or a general who prays to the God of War for victory in battle. 

 

The studio has a nasty habit of making every example an extreme. The rebels are full chaos or they are not. But you need to look no further than current events to see more powerful stories. Maybe it was a rebellion field by a population bulge and masses of poor youth overthrow the government, but the movement is co-opted by an older, more established religious sect. Maybe its an ethno-religious minority who looks outside their own planet for salvation from the persecution of the majority.

 

Maybe Chaos never manifests itself in creatures of waking nightmares and the rebels secure victory and continue on with the mundane religious practices that wouldn't seem out of place to the religious of the modern era. Singing Hymns and prayers, congregating at churches. Going to community events, etc. Sure it might seem weird to imagine a pot luck at a church who's God (unbeknownst to the congregation) is actually a feathered and multi headed snake serpent. But to them, it is simply the God of their Church's founder who revealed some holy text that the people use as a guide to live their lives. 

 

The fact that underneath the layers, at its deepest core, the God's of the 40K universe are monsters is part of the grimdark mystique. If everyone in universe knows the Gods are actually monsters, it just becomes weird. No normal person, much less an entire population, would be a part of that. Only the few self-interested devotees would willing jump on board. The fact the Imperium would go around massacring peaceful religious sects who leave offerings of bread to the God of the Harvest (who happens to be Tzeentch, btw), is one of those things that made 40K far more dystopian than fantasy. The Inquisition knows what the people are really worshipping, but even the simple act of illuminating them is more dangerous than just killing them off. 

 

 

Just my take, anyway. 

[incinerator950]

No one is "normal" in 40k.