The Nuance of Chaos

[Marshal Rohr]

Then the setting is pointless.

[Wade Garrett]

The impression I got from First Heretic was that Kor Phaeron and his crony Erebus made all of Lorgar's most important choices for him, often even without his knowledge and behind his back...

And your impression is objectively wrong.

 

When Lorgar chose to descend into damnation, when he took the final, no coming back from this step from loyalty to heresy (the sacrifice of one of the Emperor's own lifewardens and the Chapter of the Serrated Sun)...where was Erebus? Where was Kor Phaeron then?

 

Left behind. Irrelevant. Even their astropathic communiques would have taken a year to reach the Seventeenth Primarch's ears.

 

When of his own will Lorgar strode into the heart of Hell with his head held high, that he might find the Truth...it was his heart, his hands, and his alone, that set the Long War into motion.

 

Ave Aurelian.

[MaliGn]

It was definitely Lorgar who was pushing for the exploration of the old religions, he was the one that insisted on attending the ritual on Cadia, despite calls by Argel Tal and others to put the world to the sword. It may have been in council with Kor Phaeron reminding him of the old ways following the events of Monarchia but since neither truly knew where it would lead, it's kind of impossible to tell.

 

Mind you, with the events of the Orpheo's Lament having reached back through time there is certainly a sense of the inevitable about the whole affair. As though it was preordained from the creation of the primarchs in the begin with, since they wouldn't have been separated and therefore would have followed different paths, which wouldn't have led to Monarchia etc.

 

I think that Lorgar, having imparted the full extent of the truth to his closest advisors sent them as his ambassadors, to interpret his word and spread it to those of his brothers with whom he had the closest ties, or at least, some respect for and those who he believed would be open to the truth that he had discovered. He didn't need to know the details of how they spread the truth. Or at least he didn't think he did, had he paid more attention then perhaps Horus wouldn't have failed; as a more united group would have been more successful, if he had been able to properly warn Fulgrim, Angron, Mortarion and Magnus then their corruption may not have been as extreme. However he gave them his word in the form of the Book of Lorgar and thought that they needed no more guidance.

Of course he wasn't happy with the necessary betrayal that bringing the truth to the galaxy demanded, but if he had been then that would make him two dimensional, being upset by something horrible but essential rounds him.

[incinerator950]

Obviously.

 

We have an entire topic devoted to this discussion on Aedus for 40k religion.

[Dorrance]

In Betrayer I love the dialog between Khârn and *** need to look up his name buddy from Word Bearers*** where they basically conclude both sides are wrong.

 

Khârn has regret for the nails, and for what it's doing to him...

 

His Word Bearer friend who I will edit his name in says that he is weak and will use the age old excuse of he was just following orders but that is all post battle. In the heat of the moment they are all in to what they are.

 

It's interesting because there are some hints of remorse but both concluded there is no where else they rather be or do. I think the idea of chaos being one deminsional or sad or pity party comes from a) less developed Fluff from old b) people bridging the gap from 30k to 40k by themselves. Yea in 30k there might be some remorse or regret but that changes and it's different for every person after the heresy fails.

 

We're trying to burn the galaxy not drown it in tears...

 

P.s we think Abby wants the galaxy to burn but I don't think he is not about to hand over everything to the chaos gods after he takes down the imperium but it's a better slogan than...... let's trick the deamons and all these people with different motives to attain my goals

[incinerator950]

There are more than a few people getting tired of the sobby, regret characters.

 

I'll leave out the comment about the Gal Vorbak commander.

[Teetengee]

At the risk of appealing to realism, I would expect most people murdering their brothers and commiting treason/heresy/genocide to feel just the slightest hints of regret/remorse at least. That doesn't mean they think their actions are wrong, that would also be unrealistic, just that they are considering what they are doing and wishing their once friends could just see it their way.

[MaliGn]

At the risk of appealing to realism, I would expect most people murdering their brothers and commiting treason/heresy/genocide to feel just the slightest hints of regret/remorse at least. That doesn't mean they think their actions are wrong, that would also be unrealistic, just that they are considering what they are doing and wishing their once friends could just see it their way.

Exactly, it's like the way that the betrayal at Calth came first from the one Word Bearer to ever befriend an Ultramarine, to maximise the impact.

[Yogi]

@Noctus

 

I don't really like what you wrote.

 

It supposes that the Imperium is a tragic thing to turn from. It's not. This is an organisation led by a ruthless tyrant that offers two choices, bend the knee or die standing. Out of all the worlds conquered only Mars got terms.

 

Now the traitors turned for a range of reasons, none of them purely because of the inherent injustice of the Imperium, but most of them turned because of the that injustice affecting them. 

 

Now following the defeat the traitors have largely traded one inconsistent tyrant (The Emperor) for four (The Chaos Gods). The upside is that the Chaos gods respect strength above all else. If you are strong, cunning and ruthless you can take it. A Marine no longer serves humanity, but himself.   

 

Does this make them mustache twirling villians? It can. It doesn't have to. It simply depends on how they are portrayed by the author. 

 

But for someone playing a video game as a Chaos marine, well he is not some honourable hero. He fights because he likes it, he was made for it. He fights because he is seeking power and vengeance. And if he cares for the Gods he fights because they demand it. 

[Marshal Rohr]

@Noctus

 

I don't really like what you wrote.

 

It supposes that the Imperium is a tragic thing to turn from. It's not. This is an organisation led by a ruthless tyrant that offers two choices, bend the knee or die standing. Out of all the worlds conquered only Mars got terms.

 

Now the traitors turned for a range of reasons, none of them purely because of the inherent injustice of the Imperium, but most of them turned because of the that injustice affecting them.

 

Now following the defeat the traitors have largely traded one inconsistent tyrant (The Emperor) for four (The Chaos Gods). The upside is that the Chaos gods respect strength above all else. If you are strong, cunning and ruthless you can take it. A Marine no longer serves humanity, but himself.

 

Does this make them mustache twirling villians? It can. It doesn't have to. It simply depends on how they are portrayed by the author.

 

But for someone playing a video game as a Chaos marine, well he is not some honourable hero. He fights because he likes it, he was made for it. He fights because he is seeking power and vengeance. And if he cares for the Gods he fights because they demand it.

Which is a small minority of chaos worshippers confined to a few warbands. The majority of renegades are just trying to survive.

[Yogi]

 

@Noctus

 

I don't really like what you wrote.

 

It supposes that the Imperium is a tragic thing to turn from. It's not. This is an organisation led by a ruthless tyrant that offers two choices, bend the knee or die standing. Out of all the worlds conquered only Mars got terms.

 

Now the traitors turned for a range of reasons, none of them purely because of the inherent injustice of the Imperium, but most of them turned because of the that injustice affecting them.

 

Now following the defeat the traitors have largely traded one inconsistent tyrant (The Emperor) for four (The Chaos Gods). The upside is that the Chaos gods respect strength above all else. If you are strong, cunning and ruthless you can take it. A Marine no longer serves humanity, but himself.

 

Does this make them mustache twirling villians? It can. It doesn't have to. It simply depends on how they are portrayed by the author.

 

But for someone playing a video game as a Chaos marine, well he is not some honourable hero. He fights because he likes it, he was made for it. He fights because he is seeking power and vengeance. And if he cares for the Gods he fights because they demand it.

Which is a small minority of chaos worshippers confined to a few warbands. The majority of renegades are just trying to survive.

 

 

I disagree.

[Kol Saresk]

But that is where opinion meets opinion. Neither is inherently wrong as both are opinions.

 

The impression I got from First Heretic was that Kor Phaeron and his crony Erebus made all of Lorgar's most important choices for him, often even without his knowledge and behind his back, and without that manipulation and basically outright betrayal by his most trusted advisor he would never have turned to chaos in the first place.

Have you by chance read Betrayer and The Underground war(in Mark of Calth) or the WB background in Massacre?

 

 

What we really end up seeing is that while it looks like Lorgar is a puppet to Erebus and Kor Phaeron, Lorgar has been pulling his own behind the scenes magic and ultimately uses Calth as a further cleansing of the XVII Legion by sending the troops he considers useful only in death to die alongside the Ultramarines. And he even convinces Kor Phaeron and Erebus to take point on this "glorious" charge.

 

[Sception]

Nope haven't read those.  I've also heard that in later books Fulgrim takes back control of his body from the possessing daemon and so on, so maybe the series has been turning around a bit in that regard.  If so, good.

[Forté]

There are those renegades who either felt some sort of abandonment (Iron Warriors IIRC) and those who's actions were so extreme that even though scarily effective, would have eventually been tossed when no longer deemed needed (Night Lords).

 

There are so many reasons to turn away from the Imperium who has basically been spoon fed false information and turning a glorified dictator into a God. Quite funny for the 'good guys' really.

[incinerator950]

Honestly the Purge seem to have it right that everything needs to die.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Actually, I think that the traitors fell because they were flawed to begin with. Chaos only amplified/capitalized on the flaws the legions and the primarchs were created with. It is known that the primarchs or at least the traitor ones are said to have been touched by chaos before coming fully to life. I mean, look at the Word Bearers that always felt this need to worship to an extent the emperor deemed it necessary to intervene personally, and later, tempted with "the truth" and given his upbringing at a world where those believes had been upheld, it was just too tempting for Lorgar to go for it (or that's what I thought when reading The First Heretic).

 

In Angel Exterminatus we learn that the Iron Warriors always used destruction-by-slave-labor tactics to conduct their sieges, which most likely was the reason they never got any praise for it, which in turn they couldn't understand (because for them these inhumane practices are just a means to an end), which turned them bitter and worse until Olympia happened. In Storm of Iron we meet 3 very different characters that are good examples for the nuance of chaos, as they represent different paths, motivations and fates. There's Kroeger, a berserk, who ravels in killing and loses himself more and more in it as everything else - even ambition - continually fades away from his mind. Then there's the warsmith, who tries everything to reach his personal ambition of ascending to daemonhood and finally there's Forrix, a veteran warrior who looks back with bitterness but without remorse and who fights for revenge first of all.

 

I think Chaos is quite nuanced. The prime ambitions of most champions are probably power and/or revenge. Of course sometimes there are other personal goals, like Honsou trying to be aknowledged by his fellow IW, because he is only a half-breed

until he realizes that won't happen and focuses on settling his pride-induced vendetta with Uriel Ventris for being turned down

  Other goals might be perfection, a feeling of a special mission, like spreading the "truth", or pruging the galaxy from all (unworthy) life, or answering the ultimate questions of existence, or accumulate arcane knowledge. I think that most CSM don't think they do wrong. They have lost all sense for those things. Killing someone to them is like swating a fly is to most of us. Ok, some CSM may enjoy it more than others, but in the end they are all "means-to-an-end" guys, who cast away all morals or forged their own. I think CSM of old, or those raised from the ranks of cultists don't feel much remorse - though it's not impossible, and definitely would make for an interesting background story. But with freshly turned renegade chapters it's a different story (think of the Soul Drinkers - although they are a Ben Counter creation). I think one would find more second thoughts with them than with veterans of the long war.

[the jeske]

I've never really believed that. The dark age of tech was brought on by technology turning on its creatorsand severing humanity by warp storms.

 

His plan to strengthen humanity by guiding psychic evolution would probably end up with another cataclysm. Could you imagine another Slaanesh?

if all humans went psychic. Two things would happen. Massiv enslaves invasion and the warp calms down, because there are few emotions to feed the gods. Or the new humans go eldar style, the engines emps build burn out the human race, but the warp rift is closed humans are no more and warp calms it self.

 

 

would do the obscene rituals that grant the most power because ordinary people wouldn't be willing to do such grotesque acts to increase the happiness.

 

 

 

Am having problems imagining what a ordinary human wouldn't do to go up the ladder or even to get a chance to go up the ladder. There is absolutly nothing humans won't do, includng self destruction en mass.

 

That is why I also have problems with the new chaos marines fluff[when new is 7+ years old]. Chaos marines may have been one dimensional[and for sure sucked to write about, specialy if someone was trying something longer then a short story]. But they made sense to me, it even added a tragic streak to csm. No cult marines were disillusioned about the world. The cult dudes were going in a loop[were probably the nurgle ones were the only ones with a "good" end and only because nurgle gives no end to his worshipers], with each cycle being more and more empty and frustrating. The gods weren't evil[not that gods can be evil in the first place], they were just a huge meat grinder that minces more and more and never stops.

 

The new marines do odd things and operate in a way any organistation could operate[and their area of acting is milion times harsher then anything on earth through history]. They also seem to breed faster then pre heresy dark angels[while having a 10times higher or worse number of failed "aspirants"].

[incinerator950]

Heh, I was wondering when I'd here Enslaver plague again.