Best units in the new codex?

[irwit]

Hi all

 

So after reading all the rumours etc I want to know what people think are new best and worst units. 

 

To be honest from what I have read the new uber unit has to be thunderwolves.   10 points cheaper and storm shields another 10 points cheaper.  Considering TDA with storm shields are 1 wound T4,  we can now have for 10 points more...   3++ 2 wound, T5 absolute beats in combat that move 12 inches a turn!  You don't even need to equip these guys with extra weapons,   naked they get 6 attacks on the charge with rending and S5 PLUS hammer of wrath.  I'm seriously thinking a thunderwolf based army that can potentially outflank is the way forward.  

 

Also much cheaper bloodclaws and a better and cheaper delivery for all 15 of them.  I think skyclaws are looking really tempting now but also swiftclaws.

 

Dreads and venerable dreads also look really good because of more realistic points.  

 

I'm annoyed wolf priests are still overpriced as they are great fluff wise.  If you have them in a unit that is expensive enough maybe they are worth it with 6+fnp and preferred enemy.   

 

In terms of nerfed it looks like long fangs and wolf guard took the brunt of it.  

 

Overall i'm pleasantly surprised and excited by the new codex.  It looks like its basically a points adjustment release but thats all we really needed,  it wasn't like we had a bad codex to start with.  Some silly combos are gone and ill be suprised if my 8 man combiplasma wolfguard unit are still going to be playable but outside that I think its reads like we have a really good codex now which is much more in favour of assault than it previously was.  

 

 

What does everyone else think? 

 

 

[skeletoro]

Gotta agree with you about the thunderwolves. Give that 55 point thunderwolf a wolf claw and suddenly you're looking at strength 6 and shred in addition to rending.

 

Thunderwolf cavalry have some nice options for ICs to join them:

 

Harald

Canis (now grants reroll to hit for whole unit on the charge)

Iron Priest on TWM (105 points for similar Stat line to TWC but with thunder hammer, 2+/6++ for tanking ap2, can bring cyberwolves along with him)

WGBL/lord - various relics are very nice for mêlée ICs. Armour of Russ is nice for challenges, the black death os pretty nice, as is the fang sword (rending is redundant here sadly, but helfrost is very nice). Helm of Durfast allows reroll to hit (in mêlée too actually!) so all up, wolf lords pack a much bigger punch even though they lost eternal warrior.

 

I don't think our wolf guard packs are too hard done by. That 48 point wolf claw terminator just got a bonus +1 to strength. And TH+SS is now affordable, too. Also... Arjac is much cheaper than he was!

[irwit]

yeah I definitely agree than TDA WG look more likely with some options,  however I think it would be a shame if we lost our 33pt (if I remember correctly) naked WG TDA with powerweapon and storm bolter?  Arjac cheaper sounds like he is going to become a regular.  

 

Still have to say though why would you take TDA when you can take those thunderwolves?   Also  has the rule changed as previously you only got rending if you didn't take a special weapon?  ie,  take a wolf claw and you lose rending?   equivalent of 5 points for a stormshield is just epic though,   they are goingto be really difficult to shift.   Only issue is you are going to want to take so many and those bases take up so much room !

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I agree with irwit's analysis. As my army is Loganwing, Wolf Guard backed by Long Fangs, I've taken this new book pretty hard. For my existing army this is pretty much all my fears come true and if I could wipe this codex from history I'd happily keep playing the old one for another five years. I'm sure friends will let me play the army I collected. I've still to see the Wolf Guard options and see just how many models are going to need surgery.

 

For new Wolf players I do think it's probably a good codex. The price drops for Blood/Swift/Sky claws are very welcome and encourage a horde approach.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Apologies for the double post but Irwit posted his latest whilst I was posting and my browser won't let me edit. 
 

Still have to say though why would you take TDA when you can take those thunderwolves?

Because I've spent way too much time and money on the TDA models.

 

Are codexes these days attributed to a single author or have they moved to a team effort credit to avoid a repeat of Matt Ward hate?

[irwit]

I don't think anyone gets credit anymore,  probably because of the ward hate,  lol.  

 

Im with you as to losing lots of models with the new codex.   My cyclone missile launcher wolf guard who went with long fangs or grey hunters Im sure will be gone as otherwise you could spam them in bloodclaw units.  Also I had 8 wolfguard with combiplasmas in a pod,   they are now 40points more so prob not that worth it.   I could get another TWC unit for that now,  lol.   I'm seeing the codex as an opportunity to start a new army to be honest.  It really does feel like its turned into a close combat,  fast moving army with reliable deepstrike,  cheap outflanking and transports for large units.  As much as I liked grey hunters they were very boring,  Id much prefer to be moving 12 inches a turn with skyclawns or swiftclaws,   TWC I loved at 50points with an invulnerable save,   55points with a 3++ is just insane and probably OP in my opinion but like I said before,  the base size kind of stops you spamming them.  

 

I wasnt going to buy this codex after buying the ork one,  because the ork one was so boring,   this wolf one looks like it will have some potentially great combos and lots of options to explore.  I think to be honest the thing I may not use anymore will be grey hunters or if I do they will not really be doing much,  not that they did before really as I footslogged them.  

[Squark]

HQ: Ulrik and Rune Priests. Ulrik's 6" bubble is... Kind of amazing, and Rune Priests are fine again. Unless they've done something stupid to the price, I don't see how Wolf Priests are overprict

 

Elites: Spammable Lone Wolves. Iron Priests have potential.

 

Troops: Grey Hunters without[/] close combat weapons. Basically tactical marines who trade combat squads for a second special weapon. CC weapon is not worth two points (GW's prices there have needed reevaluation for a while). Also, obsec stormwolves.

 

Fast Attack: TWC. 'Nuff said.

 

Heavy Support: Long Fangs or Land Raiders

[Brother Amarel]

 

Troops: Grey Hunters without[/] close combat weapons. Basically tactical marines who trade combat squads for a second special weapon. CC weapon is not worth two points (GW's prices there have needed reevaluation for a while).

 

2pts for an extra Attack both when charging and receiving the charge on a unit of Space Marines that, with double special weapons, like to get into a close-range firefight / take out vehicles. The costing is fine, however the value might not be perfect due to how powerful the rest of the Codex is and what can be done with those points.

[irwit]

I think 2 points for an extra attack is a bit of a bargain but if you don't plan on getting in combat its nice to have the option.  Its making a good unit even better really.  

 

Its one of the issues I have with grey knights.   You HAVE to pay for deepstrike on every one of your troops but normally wouldn't really use it.  If you paid 4 points for deepstrike for greyknights it would make them a lot better,   I see the same thing with grey hunters now.  Those 20 points saved is a free wolfguard upgrade plus special weapon. 

[irwit]

Also I think i have changed my view on wolfguard being nerfed after reading this from the thread.  

 

wg get packs for 3, bikes for 7. Yay!!!veb seeds are elites.

 

 

Thats awesome news and opens up even more a fast attack CC army.   

[Squark]

Hrm... Maybe, maybe Drop pods will enable CC weapons on Grey Hunters to work. But they don't work on Chaos Marines, so...

 

Also, you don't pay for deep strike on Grey Knights. You pay for the force weapon, storm bolter, psychotroke grenades, and brotherhood of psykers.

[Valerian]

There are so many good units in this new codex that I can't list them all.  In my opinion, the only unit that really seems to be 'suboptimal' are Wolf Scouts, which is a real shame.  Wolf Scouts were my best unit back in 5e.

[irwit]

I havent seen the rules for scouts?   Are they basically just marine scouts with bs/ws 4 now? 

[Squark]

I havent seen the rules for scouts? Are they basically just marine scouts with bs/ws 4 now?

eeyup. Except no Telion, fortify defenses from TFCs, objective secured, land speeder storms, or, well, being really cheap.

[irwit]

 

I havent seen the rules for scouts? Are they basically just marine scouts with bs/ws 4 now?

eeyup. Except no Telion, fortify defenses from TFCs, objective secured, land speeder storms, or, well, being really cheap.

 

lol,   thats a shame as fluff wise I like them and are great targets for some conversions/custom made models.   However for me in the new fast attack wolf codex I'm not sure I would have chosen them anyway?

[Brother Amarel]

Hrm... Maybe, maybe Drop pods will enable CC weapons on Grey Hunters to work. But they don't work on Chaos Marines, so...

 

They work on Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne (which gives them Rage and Counter-Attack). Rage is obviously handy, but they do cost more than a Grey Hunter per model. 

[Squark]

 

 

Hrm... Maybe, maybe Drop pods will enable CC weapons on Grey Hunters to work. But they don't work on Chaos Marines, so...

They work on Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne (which gives them Rage and Counter-Attack). Rage is obviously handy, but they do cost more than a Grey Hunter per model.

but then you don't take bolters. And you take berserkers instead because they're fearless. Also, its furious charge, not rage, I believe.

[Teetengee]

It's rage and counterattack, the icons give furious charge. Also, I have never once paid for the extra attacks on vanilla csm. Too expensive to be worth it when I can spend points on something else I find.

[L30n1d4s]

I don't think Wolf Scouts are quite as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

 

They lost Operate Behind Enemy Lines, which does take away from their "unique flavor" and reliability in coming in, but they have all the standard Scout abilities (Infiltrate, Outflank, Move through Cover, etc.) and Acute Senses (which means 8/9 times they will come in on the flank you want them to, but they can't come in off the enemy's board side like with OBEL).

 

Couple that with their improved BS/WS and access to extra weapons and you have some very decent options:

 

1 - Take 10 wolf scouts with 2 x PWs, plus a PW on the Wolfguard Pack Leader upgrade, and Camo cloaks, then infiltrate close to opponents' DZ into ruins... cloaks mean they have a 3+ cover save and next turn you can charge with 10 WS4 PW attacks and 21 S4 AP- attacks, making them a decent threat to any standard enemy fire base unit.

 

2 - Take 2 Plasma Pistols, Plasma Gun, and Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Plasma Pistol (or two Plasma Pistols for gunslinger mode, if the new codex allows it). Using the standard Battle Forged army, that gives you a unit which should reliably come in on the flank you want and deliver 5 x S7 AP2 shots (or 6 shots if Gunslinger is allowed on WG Pack Leader) at 12".... this can severely weaken a key enemy fire base unit, finish off a Monstrous Creature (i.e. Riptide, Dreadknight) that you really need to bring down but still has 2-3 wounds, or even take out an important vehicle like a Leman Russ or a Wave Serpent by hitting its rear armor (6 shots --> BS4 means 4 hits --> S7 vs AV10 means 2-3 HPs stripped)

 

3 - Given 7th edition, remember that Wolf Scouts are scoring now. Take 5 with Sniper Rifles and a Plasma Cannon (rumors say they can take either one special or one heavy weapon) and camp near an objective in your DZ behind an Aegis Line with an attached Wolf Priest manning a Quad canon... if the enemy ignores them, then plink away with Sniper Rifles and Plasma cannon (supported by PE from the Wolf Priest) while holding the Objective and the Wolf Priest shooting at any aircraft/skimmers... if the enemy fires at them, you have a 3+ cover save from cloaks/Aegis line, Fearless from the Wolf Priest keeps them from running, and Healing Balms gives them a 6+ FNP, so they have decent survivability and can absorb enemy combat power away from the rest of your army.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hands down TWC, TW mounts and Stormrider Chariot. I am likely to build a fast mounted list with these units.

[Wispy]

Thunderwolves are a very, very viable and affordable assault option in an edition that has made assaulting challenging . 

[Kilofix]

I guess GW wanted to see more half-ton Astartes on fluffy puppies.

[Brother Amarel]

 

 

Hrm... Maybe, maybe Drop pods will enable CC weapons on Grey Hunters to work. But they don't work on Chaos Marines, so...

They work on Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne (which gives them Rage and Counter-Attack). Rage is obviously handy, but they do cost more than a Grey Hunter per model.

but then you don't take bolters. And you take berserkers instead because they're fearless. Also, its furious charge, not rage, I believe.

 

 

Khorne Beserkers (which are Elites) have Furious Charge. Mark of Khorne grants Rage and Counter-Attack. There are still reasons to take Bolters as well as BP & CCW (despite the cost).

[Inquisitor Kravin]

 

Also I think i have changed my view on wolfguard being nerfed after reading this from the thread.  

 

wg get packs for 3, bikes for 7. Yay!!!veb seeds are elites.

 

 

Thats awesome news and opens up even more a fast attack CC army.   

 

 

I think this really depends on whether you're building a new army or hoping to continue an existing one. I'm very slow at painting and don't have much time to play so I'm still getting to grips with my 5th edition army. I guess basically I should move to FW Heresy era because it's going to take them about 15 years to do their first edition at the current rate!

 

If you've been playing a lot then this certainly opens up a lot of exciting possibilities. Jump pack Wolf Guard and biker Wolf Guard sound great, I'm just sad that it seems to be at the expense of TDAWG.

 

I don't think Wolf Scouts are quite as bad as everyone is making them out to be.

 

They lost Operate Behind Enemy Lines, which does take away from their "unique flavor" and reliability in coming in, but they have all the standard Scout abilities (Infiltrate, Outflank, Move through Cover, etc.) and Acute Senses (which means 8/9 times they will come in on the flank you want them to, but they can't come in off the enemy's board side like with OBEL).

 

Couple that with their improved BS/WS and access to extra weapons and you have some very decent options:

 

1 - Take 10 wolf scouts with 2 x PWs, plus a PW on the Wolfguard Pack Leader upgrade, and Camo cloaks, then infiltrate close to opponents' DZ into ruins... cloaks mean they have a 3+ cover save and next turn you can charge with 10 WS4 PW attacks and 21 S4 AP- attacks, making them a decent threat to any standard enemy fire base unit.

 

2 - Take 2 Plasma Pistols, Plasma Gun, and Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Plasma Pistol (or two Plasma Pistols for gunslinger mode, if the new codex allows it). Using the standard Battle Forged army, that gives you a unit which should reliably come in on the flank you want and deliver 5 x S7 AP2 shots (or 6 shots if Gunslinger is allowed on WG Pack Leader) at 12".... this can severely weaken a key enemy fire base unit, finish off a Monstrous Creature (i.e. Riptide, Dreadknight) that you really need to bring down but still has 2-3 wounds, or even take out an important vehicle like a Leman Russ or a Wave Serpent by hitting its rear armor (6 shots --> BS4 means 4 hits --> S7 vs AV10 means 2-3 HPs stripped)

 

3 - Given 7th edition, remember that Wolf Scouts are scoring now. Take 5 with Sniper Rifles and a Plasma Cannon (rumors say they can take either one special or one heavy weapon) and camp near an objective in your DZ behind an Aegis Line with an attached Wolf Priest manning a Quad canon... if the enemy ignores them, then plink away with Sniper Rifles and Plasma cannon (supported by PE from the Wolf Priest) while holding the Objective and the Wolf Priest shooting at any aircraft/skimmers... if the enemy fires at them, you have a 3+ cover save from cloaks/Aegis line, Fearless from the Wolf Priest keeps them from running, and Healing Balms gives them a 6+ FNP, so they have decent survivability and can absorb enemy combat power away from the rest of your army.

 

Agreed. There is a LOT more to Wolf Scouts than Behind Enemy Lines.

[Squark]

It's not so much that wolf scouts are awful as it is there is nothing they do that codex scouts don't do better by virtue of being cheaper and thus more numerous (infiltrate puts you in perfect range for someone to kill tons of scouts turn 1, especially given how common ignores cover is)