Best units in the new codex?

[Valerian]

I've just reviewed Ulrik again, and he is a steal for his points. He's only 20 points more than a similarly equipped Wolf Priest, but comes with a Wolf Lord's stat-line (minus 1 Attack), grants all SW units within 6" Preferred Enemy, and all SW units within 12" Stubborn.

EDIT: Oh, and he also causes Fear.

EDIT 2: Oh, and his Preferred Enemy is agains everything, not just a single unit Type, like the other Wolf Priests.

[skeletoro]

On that topic - does the wolf standard apply to units or models within 6?

[skeletoro]

So to some extent, I am having doubts about iron priests as a particularly worthwhile add on to a TWC pack.

 

The fact is that they're paying too much for their mount. At 105 points total, they are quite good, but you could get two thunderwolves with storm shields for about the same price, and that's 4 wounds and twice as many attacks.

 

Even against AP3, the SSTWC only lose 2x as many wounds as the priest, but they have twice as many so it evens out. And they're better able to weather AP2 and ID.

 

Yes, the iron priest's attacks are s10 ap2 concussive, which is fantastic, double the number of s5 rending attacks is nothing to sniff at - that's 6/5 as many AP- wounds and 2/5 as many ap2 wounds (vs t4). So against MEQ, you're looking at 4/5 the number of unsaved wounds, at i4. Given they have an extra How attack, I'd call it about even (better vs hordes, worse vs 2+ but note that the i4 may be very handy vs some units such as TH+SS terminators). And that's before taking weapons upgrades such as wolf claws.

 

Also, cyberwolves aren't terrible, but are they worth 15 points each? 8 point fenrisian wolves seem like better ablative wounds, especially given majority toughness rules. And the fenrisian wolves give more attacks per point spent. Really, I think FW and especially CW should have dropped in points along with 'claws, as now they are too expensive compared with 12 point blood claws or their sky/swift cousins. Ultimately, the 60 points spent on those 4 cyber wolves could go towards another 1.5 thunderwolves (or 1 thunderwolf with storm shield or wolf claw).

 

50 points, even with the extra wound, is perhaps just a little too much to invest in a 1W baseline character. It's not a Terri le package, but it's not quite as nasty as I had originally thought. Will I convert an iron priest on TWM to join my army now? Yeah, I think I probably will. But is it a must-take? No. I really don't think it is.

 

It's viable, but isn't really broken in any way... at least not when compared with thunderwolf cavalry. Which I guess is something of a hard act to follow, as TWC are now, in my books, meta-changingly undercosted.

 

____

 

I am also wondering, how cheaply can we build a very viable TWM WGBL?

[Squark]

So to some extent, I am having doubts about iron priests as a particularly worthwhile add on to a TWC pack.

 

The fact is that they're paying too much for their mount. At 105 points total, they are quite good, but you could get two thunderwolves with storm shields for about the same price, and that's 4 wounds and twice as many attacks.

 

Even against AP3, the SSTWC only lose 2x as many wounds as the priest, but they have twice as many so it evens out. And they're better able to weather AP2 and ID.

 

Yes, the iron priest's attacks are s10 ap2 concussive, which is fantastic, double the number of s5 rending attacks is nothing to sniff at - that's 6/5 as many AP- wounds and 2/5 as many ap2 wounds (vs t4). So against MEQ, you're looking at 4/5 the number of unsaved wounds, at i4. Given they have an extra How attack, I'd call it about even (better vs hordes, worse vs 2+ but note that the i4 may be very handy vs some units such as TH+SS terminators). And that's before taking weapons upgrades such as wolf claws.

 

Also, cyberwolves aren't terrible, but are they worth 15 points each? 8 point fenrisian wolves seem like better ablative wounds, especially given majority toughness rules. And the fenrisian wolves give more attacks per point spent. Really, I think FW and especially CW should have dropped in points along with 'claws, as now they are too expensive compared with 12 point blood claws or their sky/swift cousins. Ultimately, the 60 points spent on those 4 cyber wolves could go towards another 1.5 thunderwolves (or 1 thunderwolf with storm shield or wolf claw).

 

50 points, even with the extra wound, is perhaps just a little too much to invest in a 1W baseline character. It's not a Terri le package, but it's not quite as nasty as I had originally thought. Will I convert an iron priest on TWM to join my army now? Yeah, I think I probably will. But is it a must-take? No. I really don't think it is.

 

It's viable, but isn't really broken in any way... at least not when compared with thunderwolf cavalry. Which I guess is something of a hard act to follow, as TWC are now, in my books, meta-changingly undercosted.

 

____

 

I am also wondering, how cheaply can we build a very viable TWM WGBL?

Let's see... Define viable? Wolf claw/frost weapon+runic is 140, and, frankly, you really want the storm shield, and now we're at the price of 3 TWC with shields (depending on what ICs pay for Storm shields. If he can get hammenator loqdout cheaper, do that)

[Valerian]

On that topic - does the wolf standard apply to units or models within 6?

 

Units.

[irwit]

I dont think any character on a TWC is going to be cost effective compared to a basic TWC model.  This was massively the case before in old codex and is just crazy now.   Standard TWC model now is far superior than most HQ choices in other codexs,  even other marine codexs but but less points.  Add a SS and you still have a cheaper option with better invunerable than a chapter master,  better T and S and better movemnt for 55 points,  crazy!

[skeletoro]

Yeah, that's a good point. Probably the best bet, then, is to take an IC that can act as a force multiplier.

 

Rune/wolf priests can't take mounts so unless you let them come along on a bike they're not an option.

 

Harald has SotWK, which is nice.

Canis has that AND gives the whole unit reroll to hit on the charge. That makes him an amazing buff character, in my book - retooling a 4+ to hit is a 50% increase to damage output, at the end of the day - meaning he grants 6 TWC an extra 3 models worth of hits (in addition to his massive number of attacks). It's just a shame he's so easily killed.

A BL/Lord with a wulfenstone is quite nice too. Give them a 2+ save (perhaps armour of Russ), a wolf claw or two (lots of other great options, including the black death) as well a the helm of durfast, and they will pack a huge, albeit expensive punch. That said, if your TWC are already s6 rending/shred, +1 strength often won't make any difference.

[skeletoro]

I think it would be worth brainstorming character builds that make the best use of the available wargear/relics.

 

WGBL with AoRuss, Fangsword: relatively cheap for the i5 hurt he puts out, at 110 points. Comes with 2+/4++, is pretty much guaranteed to strike first vs. Anyone in a challenge, and rending/helfrost gives him a shot at taking out big tough foes quickly even though he lacks ap2.

 

Wolf priest with runic armour and Black Death (alongside his crozius): what's the price on a wolf priest now? 110 base? So he's a bit pricier than the WGBL, on the other hand he offers a slew of buffs, and can choose to use his crozius over black death if need dictates. BD would be his preferred weapon, however, and with it he is striking a lot and not caring about his lack of i5. Note, however, Ulrik is amazing.

[Karack Blackstone]

GH's are not the best unit in the game, however I think a one point increase is not the death knell so many are currently thinking it seems to be.  Time will tell, and I think our tried and true Troops choice will continue to perform, just by playing them smarter than before with a little more in mind as to what they bring to the fight and take in terms of points and transport, Grey Hunters should still be a viable and fun choice.

 

BC's I really think are going to shine this edition.  Their drop in terms of points is amazing, and their other options, SkyClaws and SwiftClaws both seem to be really solid.  I think TWC win out for Fast Attack, however, it seems there's going to be some very stiff competition for our now coveted Fast Attack slots.  TWC will be a solid performer, if one wants to just go with the silly killy.  That all said, the two FA Claws packs still seem like a very capable set of units when comparing now to what once was in our 5th Ed. Codex.

[irwit]

I think it would be worth brainstorming character builds that make the best use of the available wargear/relics.

 

WGBL with AoRuss, Fangsword: relatively cheap for the i5 hurt he puts out, at 110 points. Comes with 2+/4++, is pretty much guaranteed to strike first vs. Anyone in a challenge, and rending/helfrost gives him a shot at taking out big tough foes quickly even though he lacks ap2.

 

Wolf priest with runic armour and Black Death (alongside his crozius): what's the price on a wolf priest now? 110 base? So he's a bit pricier than the WGBL, on the other hand he offers a slew of buffs, and can choose to use his crozius over black death if need dictates. BD would be his preferred weapon, however, and with it he is striking a lot and not caring about his lack of i5. Note, however, Ulrik is amazing.

If you are looking for a good buff unit I was thinking ulrik with his 6inch preferred enemy would do the trick nicely,  however the more I try and work out the advantage,  the more I am realizing that I really don't think the unit needs a buff.  Take 5 naked TWC and you have a 200 point unit,  that's just dirt cheap.    Spending 100+ points to buff a 200 point unit just doesnt make sense.   Spend 75 points and make them all 3++.  

 

Of course you can go crazy and create some bonkers deathstars with wolflords etc but being honest,  without eternal warrior or a decent invulnerable save I just don't think its worth it.  Only way I see it being worth points is for the 4+ outflank.  You could also give them scout via the inquisitor relic I think?

 

Another good buff unit for them will probably be swiftclaws.   at half the price you get some good firepower,  twinlinked,  fast moving and smaller base.  Also you can add characcters to the unit for much cheaper,  ie a wolf priest.  

 

I ran a 3 man TWC unit at a tourney last year and they were my fav unit by a long shot.  Surprisingly good at taking out tanks as I had a fist in the unit so with their speed they were pretty good.  Also the fist nearly took out a bloodthirster being hidden in a unit and safe from challenges you know you can get those 5 attacks off and at strength 10 ap2 you just meed to avoid those 1s to wound.  

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

I'm thinking wolf guard bikers are pretty viable now. Only 5 more points than swiftclaws and they get +1 WS, BS, A and LD. Plus they can all take melta bombs and sprinkle in as many melee weapons as you like. Plus the don't eat up a fast attack slot which could be filled with TWC.

 

Edit: Plus swiftclaws lost their BP+Chains word so they only get 1 attack normal and 3 attacks on the charge. Where wolf guard would get 3 attacks normal and 4 attacks on the charge. And yeah,meant swiftclaws not skyclaws.

[Squark]

10 more points than skyclaws- 5 points more than swift claws, which I think is what you meant. Also, wolf guard bikers have a bolt pistol and a chainsword, while swift claws only get one of those.

[Tommie Soule]

Wolf guard can't be split off anymore, but having so many hq options combined with multiple force org gives for an interesting substitute

[Remtek]

Skyclaws seem pretty good now 4 attacks on the charge and jump packs for 15 points per model, only ws3 but stil hitting on 4's. Would be a nice first wave unit to tie stuff down. 

[skeletoro]

I think th+ss terminators in arjac's shieldbrothers formation make for an extremely powerful deathstar.

 

For only 600 points:

 

5 TH+SS models, with Arjac, WS5, preferred enemy in challenges, t5 (when in b2b) and reflect attacks back on their attacker.

 

I mean TWC are amazing, especially now they can get the 5WS too in a Champions detachment, but these guys are rather spectacular too.

[Bulldogging]

 

Yes, the iron priest's attacks are s10 ap2 concussive, which is fantastic, double the number of s5 rending attacks is nothing to sniff at - that's 6/5 as many AP- wounds and 2/5 as many ap2 wounds (vs t4). So against MEQ, you're looking at 4/5 the number of unsaved wounds, at i4. Given they have an extra How attack, I'd call it about even (better vs hordes, worse vs 2+ but note that the i4 may be very handy vs some units such as TH+SS terminators). And that's before taking weapons upgrades such as wolf claws.

 

 

 

The Iron Priest is actually S10 ap1 or S10 ap2 Concussive. Just pointing it out because it is a factor these days.

 

Servo Arm is in the Wargear section, for reference.

[skeletoro]

Digital weapons - worth 10 points?

 

My gut reaction is that 10 points is pretty steep, but for a character toting many to-wound dice, the chance of failing one is typically quite hith, and at that point you're getting an extra (auto-hit) attack. Making it better than rage, unless you hit and wound with every single attack.

 

To put it in perspective, with 4 to wound rolls, even wounding on a 2+ you have only a 48% chance to succeed on all 4. Rage gives an extra attack but you have to roll to hit (meaning that 33% or 50% of the time it doesn't yield an extra to wound die).

 

Obviously with lower strength weapons, digital weapons become much better. And shred makes them pointless.

 

 

Edit: bulldogging, Oh ok, yeah that AP1 does make a difference in my book.

 

That said, I have yet to do the mats but 6 s6 TWC would tear apart most vehicles, imo.

[irwit]

I'm thinking wolf guard bikers are pretty viable now. Only 5 more points than swiftclaws and they get +1 WS, BS, A and LD. Plus they can all take melta bombs and sprinkle in as many melee weapons as you like. Plus the don't eat up a fast attack slot which could be filled with TWC.

 

Edit: Plus swiftclaws lost their BP+Chains word so they only get 1 attack normal and 3 attacks on the charge. Where wolf guard would get 3 attacks normal and 4 attacks on the charge. And yeah,meant swiftclaws not skyclaws.

 

I was thinking that then realised that they have the same ammount of attacks on the charge as blood claws get +2 attacks when they charge.  As much as I wanted wolf guard on bikes and jump packs,  the price of power weapons still makes them cost too much.  Who at GW has decided that a power weapons should be so expensive>?

[Squark]

 

 

I'm thinking wolf guard bikers are pretty viable now. Only 5 more points than swiftclaws and they get +1 WS, BS, A and LD. Plus they can all take melta bombs and sprinkle in as many melee weapons as you like. Plus the don't eat up a fast attack slot which could be filled with TWC.

 

Edit: Plus swiftclaws lost their BP+Chains word so they only get 1 attack normal and 3 attacks on the charge. Where wolf guard would get 3 attacks normal and 4 attacks on the charge. And yeah,meant swiftclaws not skyclaws.

I was thinking that then realised that they have the same ammount of attacks on the charge as blood claws get +2 attacks when they charge. As much as I wanted wolf guard on bikes and jump packs, the price of power weapons still makes them cost too much. Who at GW has decided that a power weapons should be so expensive>?

Mobility, T5, hammer if wrath, jink, and twin-linked boltguns add a lot. In order for blood claws to work, they need a pricy stormwolf (which risks getting shot down and killing all of them, and they don't get to charge until turn 3 or later) or land raider (which eats up a heavy support slot) to get into combat. The wolf guard bikers should be in combat turn 2 and are T5 with a 4+ cover save out in the open.

[irwit]

 

 

I'm thinking wolf guard bikers are pretty viable now. Only 5 more points than swiftclaws and they get +1 WS, BS, A and LD. Plus they can all take melta bombs and sprinkle in as many melee weapons as you like. Plus the don't eat up a fast attack slot which could be filled with TWC.

 

Edit: Plus swiftclaws lost their BP+Chains word so they only get 1 attack normal and 3 attacks on the charge. Where wolf guard would get 3 attacks normal and 4 attacks on the charge. And yeah,meant swiftclaws not skyclaws.

I was thinking that then realised that they have the same ammount of attacks on the charge as blood claws get +2 attacks when they charge. As much as I wanted wolf guard on bikes and jump packs, the price of power weapons still makes them cost too much. Who at GW has decided that a power weapons should be so expensive>?

Mobility, T5, hammer if wrath, jink, and twin-linked boltguns add a lot. In order for blood claws to work, they need a pricy stormwolf (which risks getting shot down and killing all of them, and they don't get to charge until turn 3 or later) or land raider (which eats up a heavy support slot) to get into combat. The wolf guard bikers should be in combat turn 2 and are T5 with a 4+ cover save out in the open.

 

I was comparing wolfguard on bikes or jump packs to bloodclaws on bikes or jump packs.  Wolf Guard have the same amount of attacks (on the charge),  you basically pay for extra ws and bs.   BS on bike sis also offset by twinlinked.  

[Squark]

On, you meant swift claws and skyclaws. Skyclaws I'll give you, but swift claws only carry one close combat weapon now, so WOF guard bikers have an edge there.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

 

I'm thinking wolf guard bikers are pretty viable now. Only 5 more points than swiftclaws and they get +1 WS, BS, A and LD. Plus they can all take melta bombs and sprinkle in as many melee weapons as you like. Plus the don't eat up a fast attack slot which could be filled with TWC.

Edit: Plus swiftclaws lost their BP+Chains word so they only get 1 attack normal and 3 attacks on the charge. Where wolf guard would get 3 attacks normal and 4 attacks on the charge. And yeah,meant swiftclaws not skyclaws.

 

 

I was thinking that then realised that they have the same ammount of attacks on the charge as blood claws get +2 attacks when they charge.  As much as I wanted wolf guard on bikes and jump packs,  the price of power weapons still makes them cost too much.  Who at GW has decided that a power weapons should be so expensive>?

Pretty sure I already accounted for the +2 on the charge and wolf guard gets an extra attack. Nothing says you have to load the wolf guard up with power weapons.

[skeletoro]

I would definitely leave most of the wolf guard jp/bikers with bp+cs. Maybe 1-2 with storm shields and possibly throw in a fist (or a couple with melta bombs) and 1-2 frost axes.

[skeletoro]

and the WG bikers can be WS 5.

[Squark]

With regards to wolf guard in power armor, take a page from vanguard veterans- keep the expensive wargear spread out, and you don't need too many of each weapon. Say, 2 storm shields, 2 power axes.