What would you rather have? 3+/4++ or 2+/5++

[Rasclomalum]

Imagine you have two Chaos Lords. Offensively, both have a Power Fist and some appropriate means of dakka, so swinging last in assault and challenges. One has Power Armour and a Sigil of Corruption for 3+/4++ and the other has a suit of Terminator Armour for 2+/5++. Which one of them would you choose and why?

[hornywingythingy]

Power armour, because it doesn't prevent sweeping.

[Deadman Wade]

Defensively, I think that footslogging PA lord loses to TDA lord, 'cause he's vulnerable to AP3 weapons, so even characters that aren't that good in close combat, like Grimnar, Sammael e.t.c. can kill him (2+ armor reduces amount of invulnerable saves lord will have to take, so having only 5+ isn't a problem), but he's better when mounted on bike or juggernaut. Also, as mentioned above, TDA Lord can't sweeping advance.

[Raukaan]

Terminator for me: most things will NOT be able to break through terminator armour plain and simple, and 5++ though not the best is a nice insurance that's a 1/3 chance of success so not too shabby.

[Forté]

Which Mark? Which squad with him?

 

Personally I run a Slaanesh Mark with the Crimson Slaughter codex so would be using Daemon Heart (2+/5++), Sigil (4++), Blade of Relentless or Power Sword at least. Possibly Horns and Jump Pack too.

 

As you can see, choice of armour is situational.

 

Nurgle in TDA with fist could work well. But the Black Mace is an option too.

[Sception]

Based on save alone, I'd go for the 2+/5++, but the thing is that it isn't about saves alone.  In actuality, I'd take the power armor, as it doesn't prevent you from riding in a rhino or, more importantly, on a bike or steed.  Delivery options for a terminator lord are just that much worse, on top of losing the ability to sweep.  Note that striking last isn't a great idea regardless unless you're nurgle or bike mounted (or preferably both) due to instant death.

 

If we could get some legitimate scatter mitigation, I'd be tempted to go for the termie lord, prob. with mark of nurgle and a sigil (even if it is only one point better than the inv. he comes with anyway), but we don't, so....

[Tenebris]

I am personally a fan of the 2+/5++ with MoT but point by point the PA lord is much better since it is more customizable. 

[Rasclomalum]

Suppose we threw MoT into the mix. Now it's 3+/3++ vs 2+/4++. The PA guy doesn't really care about AP3 anymore (power swords are just expensive chainswords) and is more resilient against fists and axes.

[Sception]

http://tinyurl.com/mozs6pf

 

Important collumns are A (what defensive kit you take on your lord), B (strength of attacker), G (average hits needed to kill the character if they get to make armor saves), and H (average hits needed to kill the character if they have to fall back on their invulnerable save).

 

This assumes successful hits already, since we don't have easy ways to modify that on lords to my recollection, so again, that's the average number of HITS at that strength to kill the character, not the average number of attacks total, which will depend on the attackers weapon skill, but doesn't matter for comparative purposes on our defensive kit.  The sheet does not include data for attackers w/ shred, or rending, or non-strength-based instant death.

 

 

 

So for instance, if we're talking about generic guardsmen swinging with their fists, it will take on average 27 hits to take out a non-nurgle power armored lord on foot, 54 to take out a Power armored bike or nurgle lord (including nurgle bikelords), or non-nurgle terminator lord, or 108 to take out a nurgle terminator lord or a daemonheart bike or nurgle lord (including nurgle bikelords).

 

Of course, if your lord is taking hits, we're probably not talking about generic guardsmen, we're probably talking about some sort of challenge situation.  Maybe we're looking at an enemy thunder hammer marine character.  In that case it takes on average 2.4 hits to take out a power armor & sigil lord with no mark, and only 1.8 to drop the terminator lord.  A power armor/sigil tzeentch lord fares slightly better, with 3.6 hits needed on average, while the same lord with mark of nurgle instead requires 7.2 hits.  The best for tanking S8, AP2 attacks would be a bike mounted lord with sigil and MoTz, which needs 10.8.

 

For attacks that don't ignore armor, nurgle is always at least as good as tzeentch if not better (and is much better for attacks that would instant kill tzeentch but not nurgle).  For attacks that ignore armor against models with a sigil, mark of tzeentch and mark of nurgle are even when the attacker's strength is sufficient to wound the tzeentch marked model on a 4.  For lower strengths, mark of nurgle is ahead up until the attacker's strength is so low that it hits the tzeentch marked model on a 6.  For higher strengths, mark of tzeentch is better against armor ignoring hits, up until the attacker's strength is enough to instant kill the tzeentch model, then nurgle is much better until the attacker's strength is enough to instant kill the nurgle model as well.

 

Comparing terminator armor w/o sigil to power armor with, it's pretty obvious.  Terminator armor is better against anything worse than AP2 (way better against AP3), and is worse against anything AP2 or AP1.  Not rocket science, probably not worth a spread sheet.  For instance, with an S4 attacker against an unmarked chaos lord, AP4 or worse requires 18 hits on average to kill the power armored sigil lord, and 36 to kill the terminator lord.  The terminator lord is literally twice as durable.  For a S4, AP3 attacker (say, a squad leader with power sword), the attacker still needs 36 hits on average to drop the terminator lord, but now needs only 12 to drop the power armored lord with sigil.  For an S4, AP2 attacker, only 9 hits are required for the terminator lord, and still 12 for the power armored lord, but while the power armored sigil lord does have the advantage here, it isn't nearly as significant as the terminator's advantage against lower APs.

 

Again, though, the relevant comparison probably isn't terminator v. power armor on foot, it's probably terminator v. power armor on bike, which significantly reduces the gap against mid strength, lower AP weapons, while widening it's advantage over terminator builds against mid strength AP2, and gaining a significant advantage against enemies of S8 and S9, where the unmarked termie lord can still be instant killed, while the unmarked bike/sigil lord cannot.

 

 

Lets consider something nasty, like a hive tyrant.  iirc (been a while since I played nids), we're talking S6, AP2, several attacks, or S10 AP2 one attack.  The regular attacks need about 7.2 hits to kill an unmarked sigil lord, 9 if its riding a bike, but only 5.4 to drop a termie lord on foot.  The daemonheart bikelord takes on average 12 hits if nurgle, or 13.5 if tzeentch.  on average 3.6 smash hits to drop the tzeentch daemonheart bike sigil lord, but 7.2 for the nurgle version, so it's probably better off just swinging normally regardless, but it is worth noting that the tyrant would have a chance of smashing the tzeentch version with a single lucky swing, while the nurgle version could not be dropped that way in a single round.

 

 

All in all, I was kind of surprised just how competitive tzeentch was with nurgle on the daemonheart lord, particularly with the smash nerf, though nurgle still brings peace of mind and troop plague marines.

 

As for terminator vs sigil, well, purely defensively terminator seems better overall, particularly if you grab mark of nurgle to avoid instant death from S8 and S9, but that defensive advantage shrinks when you remember that power armored characters can ride bikes, which also provide a superior delivery method, and superior offense (combi bolter and off hand attack instead of either or, plus hammer of wrath), and you keep your grenades, and the ability to use sweeping advance.

 

So terminator compares reasonably favorably to power armor on foot, but poorly to power armor on bike (or daemonic steed).

 

Which, again, is not a new observation.  The common wisdom is pretty obvious, here.

 

 

[*Furyou Miko]

Yeah, I'd go for 3+/3++. ^^;

[Chaeron]

I mean, I'd like 2++/2++ but clearly we have an underpowered codex.