New Codex, New Gaffs

[Squark]

Theft. A lot of Space Wolf ships were taken from rebels. The fleet is by no means weak, we are talking about a chapter at ~twice normal strength, but 30 Strike Cruisers is absurd. Maybe they confused Thunderhawks with Strike Cruisers? ;)

[obs0l3te]

Space Wolves (from battle fleet gothic books) raid constantly and steal/take enemy ships. There are referances to them taking Inquisition ships during the aftermath of the 3rd war for armegeddon. Not to mention when the sisters of battle tried to gain entry to Fenris. The wolves only split once I doubt every thing went with the once successor chapter.

There is also mention that the Wolves have a Emperor class battleship named the Pride of Fenris which is classified as a battlebarge. One of the Books actually had rules for it where its bays were fitted for thunderhawks. The fleet size makes perfect sense.

 

Also I can't remember what book but it also mentions that Russ did agree to Guilimans codex but being the sly wolf he is and not wanting to have any one tell him what to do with his chapter agreed to the Ultramarines demands... he pretty much said "yeah i'll do it" (cross's fingers behind back) If you look at Ragnars company there are around 200 wolves in it (where a normal marine company has 100) Wolves are stated as having the most Marines (behind black templars)

[Squark]

Err... A great Company can comfortably fit in a single strike cruiser. You could fit two companies in a battle barge. We don't need more than 13 vessels or so, not counting escorts. Sure, we take ships, but we also lose them. Case in point; We know that the flagship was lost between the fourth Armageddon war and Ragnar's days as a blood claw, as Logan was using a different vessel than the Pride of Fenrisian, and it was stated to be the oldest vessel in the fleet, so there's no way Logan would have changed flagships unless his previous vessel was irreparably damaged- Although I suppose its possible the Pride of Fenris is a rechristening of the vessel after it was nearly gutted.

[obs0l3te]

I can't remember but one but says its orbiting Fenris due to damage it recieved.

[Xisor]

So, how big are the Great Companies, these days? If they're big (even by as little as the Salamanders), then one isn't going to comfortably fit on a Strike Cruiser. (Well, it might. But it won't as comfortably deploy.)

 

Similarly, that always assumes 'normal' Strike Cruiser. If we go for the 'appropriated' route and suppose that the Wolves actually have a tiny (if any) of their Heresy relic-ships intact, then we're looking at Imperial Navy ships, Chaos ships, older vessels, Mechanicus transports and bulk haulers and odd interplanetary city-liners up-gunned by uppity Planetary Governors or would-be sub-sector Overlords. Perhaps ancient things half-understood and pried free of Space Hulks.

 

In any case, the idea that the Space Wolves' fleet is 'intact' is probably laughable as well; some might be, but they won't stay that way for long.

 

---

 

As for crews: I imagine the Space Wolves cultivate a pretty 'urbane' (for descendants of Fenris) population on those two Starforts that sit in-system in Fenris. Add to that that each ship actually has space for many thousands of people, then I'd not be too surprised to see much of the Wolves' fleet crewed by a many-millennia 'offshoot' of the Fenris population - albeit perhaps now-and-then topped up with non-Fenrisians and raw 'new' blood from Fenris itself.

 

More than all that, we still don't entirely have a good understanding of to exactly what the Fang can accomplish, logistics-wise. 

 

---

 

If it's 8 Battlebarges and 30 Strike Cruisers, I could easily see a breakdown of this sort of thing, say:

- 2 *actual* battlebarges, probably in moderately well-kept condition. (As battleships go, I imagine they're a bit Rhino-like; "easy" to repair.)

- 6 *actual* strike cruisers

 

These might even be topped-up from time to time directly by Mars (perhaps in a 'swapsies' style, where not-so-useful captured artefacts are traded back to Mars in return for decent support - to awfully paraphrase Captain Kirk: "What does Grimnar need with a scientific exploration starship?")

 

So that'd be six captured 'big capital ships' and at least twenty-four captured 'little capital ships'. But those big ships could be things that put the emphasis on 'barge' more than 'battle', things not seen actually as huge assets by the Wolves rather than huge haulers to shift things and to load up with exterminatus weaponry. 

 

Similarly, those smaller capital ships might be all the rage in void warfare - attack craft carriers, nova-cannon vehicles, lance boats and so forth... but how often will they be commanded by much more than Lone Wolves or Wolf Scouts? Perhaps a squadron with some long-fangs deployed amidst them. They might be fairly potent on the void war front - but the Space Wolves mightn't have much infrastructure to keep them, long-term, and the lack of specialised systems (e.g. drop pod bays, bombardment cannons) might actually hamper the deployment of Space Wolves where their jobs as Space Marines is concerned.

 

So, for those 'strike cruisers' a lot of them could be heavy transports, Mechanicus haulers, not-optimally-controlled Mechanicus/relic vessels, Imperial light cruisers and such, as well as solid Imperial or Chaos cruisers.

 

And, depending, all of their crews might not be 'brilliant' compared to other fleets. (Look at Blood Claw stats compared to other Power Armoured Marines. Eight Strike Cruisers versus thirty-plus Strike Cruisers might, in this case, be more akin to eight Sternguard versus thirty-plus Blood Claws - that sort of thinking might put things into much clearer perspective.

 

Of course, when it's just ten of you deploying via a Stormraven, it's probably not a major issue whether you're on a re-purposed, rickety Repulsive Class Grand Cruiser or a sleek, state-of-the-art Gladius Class Frigate, the Space Wolves inside will still be needing to get from point A to point B. Everything else is gravy.  Sorry, navy.

 

(Yes, having a Grand Cruiser at your back is possibly very useful. But it draws up questions as to how 'useful' we think Space Wolves actually are as Space Marines. Just how reckless and wasteful are they? Even in Wraight's Blood of Asaheim, I felt that was still egregiously wasteful. That said, their willingness to 'pay large prices' is a reasonable fudge-factor to still have them be 'sort of' equivalent to another Chapter in power. They might have huge resources, but they'll churn through them quickly - even if they might win big again later, they're precariously relying on continuing to win without a huge amount of back-up plans...)

[Commander_Moustache]

Getting back on topic, in the blood claw page it lists that the entire unit has rage (which would include the pack leader) I say this because on the swiftclaw page it syas Rage (swiftclaws only)

[Cyrox]

Space Wolves do have access to Terra though, and have a long standing relationship with a navigator house. Stands to reason that that have access to navy personnel for crewing ships

 

Some of you are getting overly angry over this fleet thing, perhaps they really do have that many ships, and we are seeing a slight recon.

 

As posted above, wouldn't surprise me if you see fluff for other chapters showing an increase in ship numbers given the past legion numbers going up

 

Don't let it ruin your day folks, it's just a game

[Grimtooth]

Uh. I can't accept the apparent sizes we're given for SW strength. It's so inconsistent with the information given the same book!

 

Fenris is a deadly planet, possibly one of the worst death worlds in the galaxy. Its people live as viking nomads most of the time with technology the equivalent of pre-black powder civilisations. Space Wolves are fiercely independent.

 

So where do they find the crew and ship yard personnel to man these massive amounts vessels? Who's giving the Space Wolves the resources to maintain these ships? Who's training these simple folk of Fenris?

 

A space bound Chapter with access to Terra itself or another with the entire might of Ultramar has a fraction of the amount of ships and recruits? Give me a break! I swear GW have lost all respect for SW and just pander to the frothing masses to give them "the best" at the expense of the soul of the Chapter background.

 

Now, I can accept this background if it's just ships in dry dock and the actual number of ships in active service was much more modest. But is that the case? Is it inconclusive or outright said the SW use them all?

According to Battle of the Fang, there has been generations upon generations of Fenrisians that have lived in the Fang as kaerls working and fighting alongside the Wolves. Not every Fenrisian is a savage from the ice.

[Urauloth]

Err... A great Company can comfortably fit in a single strike cruiser. You could fit two companies in a battle barge. We don't need more than 13 vessels or so, not counting escorts. Sure, we take ships, but we also lose them. Case in point; We know that the flagship was lost between the fourth Armageddon war and Ragnar's days as a blood claw, as Logan was using a different vessel than the Pride of Fenrisian, and it was stated to be the oldest vessel in the fleet, so there's no way Logan would have changed flagships unless his previous vessel was irreparably damaged- Although I suppose its possible the Pride of Fenris is a rechristening of the vessel after it was nearly gutted.

 

You could only get a great company in there if it was a small one, or if they didn't take any stuff with them. No way the bigger great companies would fit in one of those things.

 

As an aside, the term "strike cruiser" is probably being used very liberally with regard to the Fenrisian fleet. 30 cruisers of some variety, in various states of repair? Much more credible than 30 official Astartes Strike Cruisers (which there might not necessarily even be a double-figure number of, and they'd still be a big deal, hence the loss of the Wolf of Fenris being such a blow and also its capture being one of Huron's greatest aquisitions)

 

There's a section in the BFG book where it mentions that to the traitor legions, any ship of sufficient size, transport capacity and ability to bombard/assault planets functions as a "strike cruiser" and it's not hard to imagine a pragmatic wolf lord thinking in much the same way imo.

[Vash113]

Or it could be a case that we are seeing revisions in line with the new legion size retcons. Wasn't the last time the Ultra fleet size was listed before the Legions were made 100,000+ strong.

 

It could be we are seeing a revision which may also influence the size of the other first founding fleets post heresy. The Ultra fleet size may also be bumped up later on, as this might be a brand new idea.

 

Or the thought process could simply be that the wolves split the second least after the Heresy (Sallies as 1) and arguably took the second least amount of damage during it (Ultras as1).

 

Legion sizes have varied wildly over the years, the current estimates are not exactly new, earlier material had them range from tens of thousands to several hundred thousand on average, the current sizes are actually somewhere between those two extremes, and as I said there's little indication that the modern Space Wolf fleet has many, if any, ships dating back to the Great Crusade anymore.

 

Space Wolves (from battle fleet gothic books) raid constantly and steal/take enemy ships. There are referances to them taking Inquisition ships during the aftermath of the 3rd war for armegeddon. Not to mention when the sisters of battle tried to gain entry to Fenris. The wolves only split once I doubt every thing went with the once successor chapter.

There is also mention that the Wolves have a Emperor class battleship named the Pride of Fenris which is classified as a battlebarge. One of the Books actually had rules for it where its bays were fitted for thunderhawks. The fleet size makes perfect sense.

 

Also I can't remember what book but it also mentions that Russ did agree to Guilimans codex but being the sly wolf he is and not wanting to have any one tell him what to do with his chapter agreed to the Ultramarines demands... he pretty much said "yeah i'll do it" (cross's fingers behind back) If you look at Ragnars company there are around 200 wolves in it (where a normal marine company has 100) Wolves are stated as having the most Marines (behind black templars)

 

While yes the Space Wolves do capture ships regularly they also lose ships regularly, thanks in large part to the reckless and cavalier attitude of the chapter even in void combat. For instance the Pride of Fenris is a replacement for Logan's earlier flagship the Scramaseax. Sometime in the last five centuries the largest and most powerful vessel in the chapter fleet was lost and replaced, it's not like all the captured ships are additions to the fleet, often they are replacements for ships lost in the very same battle.

 

Err... A great Company can comfortably fit in a single strike cruiser. You could fit two companies in a battle barge. We don't need more than 13 vessels or so, not counting escorts. Sure, we take ships, but we also lose them. Case in point; We know that the flagship was lost between the fourth Armageddon war and Ragnar's days as a blood claw, as Logan was using a different vessel than the Pride of Fenrisian, and it was stated to be the oldest vessel in the fleet, so there's no way Logan would have changed flagships unless his previous vessel was irreparably damaged- Although I suppose its possible the Pride of Fenris is a rechristening of the vessel after it was nearly gutted.

 

That's possible, it could be a rechristening of the same ship. I hadn't considered that.

 

Getting back on topic, in the blood claw page it lists that the entire unit has rage (which would include the pack leader) I say this because on the swiftclaw page it syas Rage (swiftclaws only)

 

Nicely spotted, I hope that gets FAQ'd soon.

 

Space Wolves do have access to Terra though, and have a long standing relationship with a navigator house. Stands to reason that that have access to navy personnel for crewing ships

 

Some of you are getting overly angry over this fleet thing, perhaps they really do have that many ships, and we are seeing a slight recon.

 

As posted above, wouldn't surprise me if you see fluff for other chapters showing an increase in ship numbers given the past legion numbers going up

 

Don't let it ruin your day folks, it's just a game

 

Space Marine Chapters do not draw personnel from any other Imperial institution, certainly not the navy and it's not like Space Wolf ships regularly stop by in the Sol system. The Space Wolves have crews drawn from the natives of Fenris who have served the chapter for many centuries, whole populations live and serve on the Isle of the Iron Makers, in the Fang, and aboard each ship of the fleet, and potentially on the Star Forts and various other garrisons throughout the Fenris system and other chapter holdings. From the forge Thralls to the armed Skaerls these servants number in their tens of thousands.

 

As for getting upset or ruining any days I very much doubt that, we're just discussing a point of inconsistency in the material, at the end of the day it's just something to laugh about over a stein of mead, as is the Space Wolf way.

 

 

According to Battle of the Fang, there has been generations upon generations of Fenrisians that have lived in the Fang as kaerls working and fighting alongside the Wolves. Not every Fenrisian is a savage from the ice.

 

 

Indeed. The Ragnar novels and Prospero Burns also depict sizable numbers of chapter bondsmen serving in various roles and capacities.

 

So, how big are the Great Companies, these days? If they're big (even by as little as the Salamanders), then one isn't going to comfortably fit on a Strike Cruiser. (Well, it might. But it won't as comfortably deploy.)

 

Similarly, that always assumes 'normal' Strike Cruiser. If we go for the 'appropriated' route and suppose that the Wolves actually have a tiny (if any) of their Heresy relic-ships intact, then we're looking at Imperial Navy ships, Chaos ships, older vessels, Mechanicus transports and bulk haulers and odd interplanetary city-liners up-gunned by uppity Planetary Governors or would-be sub-sector Overlords. Perhaps ancient things half-understood and pried free of Space Hulks.

 

In any case, the idea that the Space Wolves' fleet is 'intact' is probably laughable as well; some might be, but they won't stay that way for long.

 

---

 

As for crews: I imagine the Space Wolves cultivate a pretty 'urbane' (for descendants of Fenris) population on those two Starforts that sit in-system in Fenris. Add to that that each ship actually has space for many thousands of people, then I'd not be too surprised to see much of the Wolves' fleet crewed by a many-millennia 'offshoot' of the Fenris population - albeit perhaps now-and-then topped up with non-Fenrisians and raw 'new' blood from Fenris itself.

 

More than all that, we still don't entirely have a good understanding of to exactly what the Fang can accomplish, logistics-wise. 

 

---

 

If it's 8 Battlebarges and 30 Strike Cruisers, I could easily see a breakdown of this sort of thing, say:

- 2 *actual* battlebarges, probably in moderately well-kept condition. (As battleships go, I imagine they're a bit Rhino-like; "easy" to repair.)

- 6 *actual* strike cruisers

 

These might even be topped-up from time to time directly by Mars (perhaps in a 'swapsies' style, where not-so-useful captured artefacts are traded back to Mars in return for decent support - to awfully paraphrase Captain Kirk: "What does Grimnar need with a scientific exploration starship?")

 

So that'd be six captured 'big capital ships' and at least twenty-four captured 'little capital ships'. But those big ships could be things that put the emphasis on 'barge' more than 'battle', things not seen actually as huge assets by the Wolves rather than huge haulers to shift things and to load up with exterminatus weaponry. 

 

Similarly, those smaller capital ships might be all the rage in void warfare - attack craft carriers, nova-cannon vehicles, lance boats and so forth... but how often will they be commanded by much more than Lone Wolves or Wolf Scouts? Perhaps a squadron with some long-fangs deployed amidst them. They might be fairly potent on the void war front - but the Space Wolves mightn't have much infrastructure to keep them, long-term, and the lack of specialised systems (e.g. drop pod bays, bombardment cannons) might actually hamper the deployment of Space Wolves where their jobs as Space Marines is concerned.

 

So, for those 'strike cruisers' a lot of them could be heavy transports, Mechanicus haulers, not-optimally-controlled Mechanicus/relic vessels, Imperial light cruisers and such, as well as solid Imperial or Chaos cruisers.

 

And, depending, all of their crews might not be 'brilliant' compared to other fleets. (Look at Blood Claw stats compared to other Power Armoured Marines. Eight Strike Cruisers versus thirty-plus Strike Cruisers might, in this case, be more akin to eight Sternguard versus thirty-plus Blood Claws - that sort of thinking might put things into much clearer perspective.

 

Of course, when it's just ten of you deploying via a Stormraven, it's probably not a major issue whether you're on a re-purposed, rickety Repulsive Class Grand Cruiser or a sleek, state-of-the-art Gladius Class Frigate, the Space Wolves inside will still be needing to get from point A to point B. Everything else is gravy.  Sorry, navy.

 

(Yes, having a Grand Cruiser at your back is possibly very useful. But it draws up questions as to how 'useful' we think Space Wolves actually are as Space Marines. Just how reckless and wasteful are they? Even in Wraight's Blood of Asaheim, I felt that was still egregiously wasteful. That said, their willingness to 'pay large prices' is a reasonable fudge-factor to still have them be 'sort of' equivalent to another Chapter in power. They might have huge resources, but they'll churn through them quickly - even if they might win big again later, they're precariously relying on continuing to win without a huge amount of back-up plans...)

 

Your overthinking this IMO. As for the crews the Ragnar novels describe the Space Wolf crews as disciplined, highly trained and efficient, as well as pretty much all armed. Considering many navy vessels are crewed in large parts by convicts, slaves and ratings I'd say on average any Space Marine ship, whether captained by marines or not, is going to be better run and better crewed than the average navy ship.

 

As for the fleet numbers as I've said before they are implausible, not impossible, not outrageous, stupefying or inconceivable, just implausible. The events in the Emperor's Gift certainly suggest the Space Wolves fleet was considerably larger than an average chapter, or even previous estimates, given the ground they covered in opposing the Inquisitions efforts.

 

Now considering the Battle-Barges and Strike Cruisers I've been mulling it over and it makes a little more sense than I first considered. Essentially both designations are catch-all terms for any ship refitted by the Adeptus Astartes for the purpose of planetary assault. Actual Strike Cruisers and Battle-Barges, those ships we recognize from Battlefleet Gothic are fairly rare and most chapters only have maybe a dozen total of the two classes combined. The Black Templars and Ultramarines have around 3 Battle-Barges each, the Imperial Fists 2. However the Space Wolves fluff does show a tendency to capture and repurpose a variety of vessels. Essentially a Strike Cruiser is an up-armored and up-gunned Light Cruiser, while a Battle-Barge could be anything from a Battlecruiser or Heavy Cruiser to a Battleship like the Pride of Fenris. Considering the chapter fleet only possesses say 2-3 ships the size of an actual battleship that fill the role of Battle-Barge that is more in line with the expected fleet size. While many of the Strike Cruisers may be repurposed Light Cruisers or perhaps even Rogue Trader vessels or other medium sized vessels of various classes. These ships serve the Imperium in their millions, while actual Strike Cruisers, vessels purpose built for the Space Marines, are rare in the extreme, it's entirely possible the docks of the Fang are capable of decently retrofitting a cargo ship or light cruiser to serve the chapter.

 

The previous number of fifteen Great Ships could also be simply assumed to be the number of larger, more powerful capitol ships of the chapter fleet used by the Great Companies, which are in fact only a portion of the overall chapter fleet strength.

 

It could also be a mistaken estimate similar to the confusion with the Black Templars, since Wolf Lords are prone to add their own colors and insignia to their assigned ships it could be that Adeptus Administratum agents have simply counted various vessels multiple times, mistaking different markings for different campaigns or companies as different vessels entirely. This would perhaps explain the rough 30+ estimate and similarly uncertain numbers for the escorts.

 

 

 

 

You could only get a great company in there if it was a small one, or if they didn't take any stuff with them. No way the bigger great companies would fit in one of those things.

 

As an aside, the term "strike cruiser" is probably being used very liberally with regard to the Fenrisian fleet. 30 cruisers of some variety, in various states of repair? Much more credible than 30 official Astartes Strike Cruisers (which there might not necessarily even be a double-figure number of, and they'd still be a big deal, hence the loss of the Wolf of Fenris being such a blow and also its capture being one of Huron's greatest aquisitions)

 

There's a section in the BFG book where it mentions that to the traitor legions, any ship of sufficient size, transport capacity and ability to bombard/assault planets functions as a "strike cruiser" and it's not hard to imagine a pragmatic wolf lord thinking in much the same way imo.

 

 

Well said.

[Wispy]

I bought the enhanced digital codex and I'm utterly aghast the list builder they included is for Grey Knights. What awful quality control. 

 

 

The fleet size retcon I actually like. That's a giant armada the Space Wolves have, largely thanks to how meagrely they divided their legion during the Second Founding. The implication they run a mini-star empire is clear, similar to Ultramar. You'll notice that Phil Kelly's allied IG army the "Midgard 144th" was canonized. Midgardia is now a world in the Space Wolves system.

[temneb]

Try going to the page from the section list instead of scrolling through the pages.Or vice versa. I find that I was able to get both depending on how I opened it up. Though I've now got the issue of having built an army that I have lost the ability to modify. Can only add units.

[Kastellan Kong]

The Space Wolf Fleet

-8 Battle Barges and 30 Strike Cruisers? Really? The entire Ultramarines Chapter has what 3 Battle Barges and 7 Strike Cruisers? The Imperial Fists have 2 Battle Barges and 8 Strike Cruisers? This fleet description is simply entirely too large and contradicts previous estimates in the fluff which list the entire chapter as having 15 Great Ships, more than most Chapters complement of Capitol Ships but nowhere near the close to 40 listed in the codex.

What's the problem with this?

 

Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are one chapter each. The Space Wolves are in practice something like 12 chapters. Their fleet has to be bigger.

[Captain Idaho]

Think 12 Chapters is a little over estimation there. ;)

 

I'm satisfied that years of breeding could supply man power for the ships. That's a workable explanation for me. The upkeep and actual use of the vessels are somewhat problematic for me to feel workable.

 

Still it could all work. The Ultramarines have a fleet and Ultramar also has a fleet officially, so it's entirely feasible that the numbers comparison is practical. Though it does beg the question that if looking after and crewing vessels is such an easy job, why is it only the Ultramarines and Space Wolves who do so? That's probably the hardest thing to consider. Ultramar having immense resources works. Space Wolves don't strike me as well equipped as the Raven Guard or Salamanders though, and it's stepping on their toes to suggest that is the case.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Aren't there shipyards in the Armageddon system? Surely they're sufficiently capable of maintaining and crewing such a fleet, and they're also extremely close to the Fenris system (well, close on a galactic scale anyway). The Armageddon system is already responsible for producing immense quantities of war materials for the Imperium anyway, so it's not inconceivable that a portion of that comes the Space Wolves' way.

We also don't have much information about the other planets and moons in the Fenris system and if they serve any greater purpose than merely existing, and what about this static defense set-up the system has, for all we know that could include a shipyard(s) capable of mooring such a fleet. As for drawing material strength from Fenris itself, I was under the impression it's main resource was recruits, potential marines not fleet crew/technical staff, which would likely be drawn from the Segmentum fleet's manpower pool.

 

I'd also disregard the Ragnar books as being more than an enjoyable read, this is the series that kicks off with a fairly hefty contradiction as to the beginning of Ragnar's saga, namely who he's recruited by.

 

As for gaffs, the formation in the book includes a unit of Wolf Guard from page 68, so the power armoured variant, but the example has the terminator variant. I'm not sure if the formation was meant to give you the choice between page 68 and 69 or if the image above is just wrong. You also can't make Ragnar's or Harald's great company using the formation unless you have them share command with another (generic) Wolf Lord.

[BT_Cennar]

Even in late 40k the Mechancus shipyards are stil capable to build some war-ships. Sure they are might be unable to build new Empror Class and  not all types of the  BattleBarges but at least some of the different types.

Maning the Ships isnt a big issue. The smaller Astarte Ships are "only" a few thousend "seeman" wich are mostelikly karls and servitors for the Wolves.

So while not fluff consistent it might very easy be about 30-40 "battle barges". btw Lexicanum states almost every warship in possesion of Adeptus Astartes is counted es BattleBarge.

 

In regard of the fleets of other Chapters. Black Tempars have in the late 40k about 6000 Marines at Arms. Asuming an avarage of 150 man / Crusade with say -2000 at non Ship related dutys (monasterys / shrineworld guarding etc.) and lets say 500-1000 abord the "Eternal Crusader" its still 3000/150 = 20+ Battleships different size. You might say BTs are difeferent , they are Ship Based.. so are SWs and ALL other chapters too.... most xenos/chaos would not attack  Homeworlds of Astartes (unless they are Orks) on a regular base so you need the capacity to deploy the whole Chapter at same time and scince not all ships are always battle ready (repars etc.) you would want to have overcapacity.

[Captain Idaho]

Aren't there shipyards in the Armageddon system? Surely they're sufficiently capable of maintaining and crewing such a fleet, and they're also extremely close to the Fenris system (well, close on a galactic scale anyway). The Armageddon system is already responsible for producing immense quantities of war materials for the Imperium anyway, so it's not inconceivable that a portion of that comes the Space Wolves' way.

We also don't have much information about the other planets and moons in the Fenris system and if they serve any greater purpose than merely existing, and what about this static defense set-up the system has, for all we know that could include a shipyard(s) capable of mooring such a fleet. As for drawing material strength from Fenris itself, I was under the impression it's main resource was recruits, potential marines not fleet crew/technical staff, which would likely be drawn from the Segmentum fleet's manpower pool.

I'd also disregard the Ragnar books as being more than an enjoyable read, this is the series that kicks off with a fairly hefty contradiction as to the beginning of Ragnar's saga, namely who he's recruited by.

It just doesn't seem very independent and Space Wolfy for them to be so reliant on Imperial planets.

[Kastellan Kong]

Think 12 Chapters is a little over estimation there.

Not at all. As per the new codex, each great company is a little bit bigger than a Codex Chapter. 12 Great Companies. 12 Chapters. Seems simple enough.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

 

Think 12 Chapters is a little over estimation there. ;)

 

Not at all. As per the new codex, each great company is a little bit bigger than a Codex Chapter. 12 Great Companies. 12 Chapters. Seems simple enough.

Afraid youve got it wrong KingKong they great companies are larger but arent anywhere near chapter size. On page 8 under the codex astartes it lists that each great company was hundreds strong, not over a thousand. I think the consensus is they are around the 200-250 mark meaning there is roughly around 3000 with rune priest/iron priests/etc

[Pariah Mk.231]

Ragnar has the second largest company at just under 200 marines, so total chapter size is likely around 1500-2000 marines.

[Captain Idaho]

1500-2000 is not much bigger than a standard Chapter anyway.

Using the Ultramarines as an example and not including unknown positions like Equerries, Neophytes and Acolytum:

Consider each Space Marines Chapter has 100 men in each Company = 1000

Each Company has a Captain and Command squad = 60

Chapter Master and Honour Guard = 28 (this is an upper estimate as most Chapters have smaller Honour Guard)

Librarius = 25

Armoury = 28

Apothecarion = 13

Reclusiam = 11

Total = 1165

This also doesn't include previous background material we haven't had overwritten yet, such as the Strike Cruiser Vae Victus having a Space Marine Admiral and First Officer, which implies each Ship is similarly crewed. Likewise, how many Techmarines are there aboard each ship that aren't on the roll of battle? It's an unknown so best to leave it out.

It also doesn't include how each Company maintains it's own Rhinos and Land Raiders (1st Company) which is another 10 men per Company (as Land Raiders have a crew of 2 but the Scouts have no Rhinos), that's another 100 right there.

There is also background material that tank crews are separate from the order of battle (Chronus and 3rd edition Codex Space Marines). Not including reserves (assuming each is always available per vehicle), this is around 50 extra Marines minimum.

Note if each vehicle in the Armoury is crewed, that means this total is actually 64 strong for tanks, plus an additional 4 per Thunderhawk for another 56.

This could be a potential conservative estimate (only knowns so for example just two Space Marines on a starship) of: 1387.

Higher estimates could be as large as 1600! If you consider armoury Landspeeders could be crewed separately (though unlikely given how the Assault squads and Reserves are quoted as being deployable in them), there could be and likely is several Space Marines per Capital ship in a Space Marine fleet, and the fleet Thunderhawks aren't likely counted either.

These increased numbers explains why there is tolerance for Space Wolves having greater numbers. It ain't as high as it seems

[Squark]

I believe it's also been stated that fleet based chapters and the ultramarines (huge recruiting ground and high gene seed retention rate) have over strength scout companies. Technically speaking, the 10th company consists of a few sergeants, the captain, apothecary, and the chaplain, and then however many scouts are on hand. Some less fortunate chaptersay have only a handful of squads, while the Crimson Fists are being indiscriminate in recruiting to bring up their numbers and have several hundred scouts

[Marshal Rohr]

Ragnar has exactly 188 in his company per the new codex. It lists each squad AND character. It says that Logan Grimnar's company has over 200. So, lets be generous and say Logan has 299 in his company. Ragnar comes in second at 188, and for the sake of argument the other 10 companies come in at 187. That puts the Space Wolves at a comfortable 2357, which I will remind everyone, is the largest the could possibly be by 998.M41. So don't clap your hands and make believe that in the next year they recruit another thousand by the time they go to Cadia for the Final Showdown. 

 

The Space Wolves Fleet has 8 Battle Barges and 30 Strike Cruisers. Lets fill each of those up to their max BFG stated capacity. You can fill exactly 7.856 Battle Barges with no one in a Strike Cruiser. OR You can fill exactly 23.57 Strike Cruisers and no Battle Barges. Of course this means 6 strike cruisers are just floating around Fenris unoccupied. Could 2357 Space Wolves divide themselves amongst 38 Capital Ships? Of course. Could the space wolves have that many? I don't see why not. They are the Special Snowflakes of the universe, surely their fleet gets to be biggest. 

[Squark]

Well, we know Bran has over 200 under his command per IA 11. Also, Drednaughts, priests, and fleet/vehicle personnel aren't counted in that estimate. So I'd say more like 2600 to 2800- About the twice the Strength of the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, which isn't that unreasonable when you remember that codex chapters periodically split in two when they start to get too large.

[Marshal Rohr]

Well, we know Bran has over 200 under his command per IA 11. Also, Drednaughts, priests, and fleet/vehicle personnel aren't counted in that estimate. So I'd say more like 2600 to 2800- About the twice the Strength of the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, which isn't that unreasonable when you remember that codex chapters periodically split in two when they start to get too large.

 

Bran MAY have had 200 in 894.M41, a full 104 years before the current codex during the Betalis 3 Campaign. But now Ragnar has 188, and Logan has over 200, and Ragnar is second in size.

 

So 2600 to 2800 is incorrect.

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