ChaoticEric Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 One of the guys I regularly play has started fielding Khârn with a squad of Berzerkers in a Land Raider and I'm having some real issues dealing with this combo. His insane number of S7, AP2 and I5 attacks on the charge with Hatred is just chewing through anything I'm throwing at it. With his armourbane it also doesn't help with dreads or other vehicles. I've tried to destroy the LR with shooting which is hard enough with our limited shooting able to deal with armour 14 and even if I take it out, he can footslog to me in a couple of turns and then the carnage begins. Our shooting just doesn't deal well with 3+ saves as he can look out sir Khârn whenever I manage to cause some wounds on the squad. What I've done so far is a squad of termies with a master/grand master with a warding staff which accepts his mandatory challenge and then tries to tie him up for as long as possible while the termies deal with the rest of the squad. The unholy amounts of S5 attacks on the charge with hatred from the Berzerkers does seem to wear out the termies after a couple of rounds anyway. I haven't worked out the exact math between Khârn and the grand master but so far Khârn has won each time as the GM despite his 2++ isn't able to cause enough wounds. Of course it's possible to try to time him charging my unit with a next round charge with like a dreadknight and/or purifiers but that'll mean I'm throwing more or less my entire army at this one unit while the rest of his army is grabbing all the objectives. He's also running a full plasma Forgefiend which means that I don't want to bunch up my expensive units too much as it'll be an expensive barbeque if he lands too many of those s7/ap2 blasts on top of them. Perhaps an all-hammer unit of Paladins with the GM to kill all the Berzerkers as soon as possible and then start attacking Khârn with them now that it's allowed to attack models in a challenge when there's no other targets? I'm praying to the Emperor each night that he doesn't realise what one or two Heldrakes on top of this would do to my poor Knights :) Khârn at like 160p must be one of the best point for point values in 40K? So now I turn to my brothers with infinite wisdom in these matters; are you usually dealing with Khârn or similar amounts of high number of ap2 attacks in melee? Edit; I should add that I'm playing pure GK, I'm not a big fan of allies/Inquisition as I think each army loses a bit of its character and negates its characteristics when playing with allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultramarine vet Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I'm an Ultramarines player, and I know this is a Grey Knights forum, but hopefully I can give you some ideas! Khârn is very easy for me to deal with. Not even a problem. I have 3 ways to take him out. 1: A Chapter Master in terminator armor with the Shield Eternal and thunder hammer. He squishes Khârn every time. His assault terminators take care of Khârn's retinue of berzerkers. 2: A Captain with the Teeth of Terra. He'll kill Khârn and his berzerkers all by himself. No help needed. 3: Simply unload all my firepower into the unit until only Khârn remains, then snipe him with a couple of lascannons or missile launchers. I have done that several times. It is simple and effective. He's quite squishy when you hit him with the right weapons. The key to defeating him is usually killing him outright with a str 8 or higher weapon, because he only has a 5+ invulnerable save. I'm sure as a Grey Knights player, you can get some terminators with thunder hammers or something of the sort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
asinis Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Well, from what I can see in army builder hes T4 guy with 3+ without eternal warrior. Just give all your justicars master crafted halberds and the justicar should be able to beat him with force weapon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 One of the guys I regularly play has started fielding Khârn with a squad of Berzerkers in a Land Raider and I'm having some real issues dealing with this combo. His insane number of S7, AP2 and I5 attacks on the charge with Hatred is just chewing through anything I'm throwing at it. With his armourbane it also doesn't help with dreads or other vehicles. I've tried to destroy the LR with shooting which is hard enough with our limited shooting able to deal with armour 14 and even if I take it out, he can footslog to me in a couple of turns and then the carnage begins. Our shooting just doesn't deal well with 3+ saves as he can look out sir Khârn whenever I manage to cause some wounds on the squad. Apply Dreadknight to the Landraider. This kills the Landraider. Apply plasma cannon servitors to the Beserkers. Failing that, mass psycannon+storm bolter will annhilate them. As for facing him in a challenge, Grandmaster with a hammer does the trick. His retinue gets rekt by anyone carrying halberds and 'Hammerhand' turned on, Beserkers are pretty bad these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I don't see how a grandmaster with a hammer would help at all. As Khârn is unloading loads of ap2 attacks first. Which will kill him. Using any weapon I'd say you'd be struggling in combat. Chaos characters are seriously good for their points, plus he can't be effected by force weapons. Your best bet would probably use a squad of terminators with hammers and the justicar with a warding stave and the grandmaster with a warding stave too. Accept the challenge with the GM, use your terminators to kill off all the berserkers (or most) and if the GM dies in the challenge (which he probably will) the overflow of wounds in the wound pool can then be taken on the justicar with the warding stave. Then after you use all your hammernators to squish him!after heavy loses. You'd be better off shooting him to death lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetKelari Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I agree with asinis, give the Justicar or your HQ a halberd. I run a brother-captain/grand-master with a halberd and anything with Init. 6 or less with a 3+ is terrified of him. And purifiers with halberds (most efficient use of halberds) should be able to remove most of those Berserkers before the mess-load of S5 attacks hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I don't see how a grandmaster with a hammer would help at all. As Khârn is unloading loads of ap2 attacks first. Its actually not that many, statistically you will survive by making enough 4+ invuls. And Khârn is dead meat to even a single hammer wound. Considering we're talking about cornercase scenarios :P (who the hell would take Khârn to a tourney?), put Draigo against him. RIP in pieces you Khornate scum haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I have Khârn in my other army and he's by far my favorite character in the game. The guy is a blast to play, and in cc he rarely misses even if it is berserkers he ends up killing. Like everyone has said, halberds will cut through his Armour and leave him with his 5++. Hammers and anythingelse strength 8 or higher will instagib him. Khârn and co in a land raider is tough for our army to crack so I understand your frustration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 I couldn't help running some mathhammer on Khârn as I've gotten the impression he's pretty much impossible to beat in CC. I'm in no way an expert on this, my statistics are pretty rusty by now. The way I work it out is like this; On the charge Khârn is S7 He's got A7 (2CCW + furious charge) He's always hitting on 2+ rerolling due to his special rule + Hatred He'll hit 5/6 + ((1-5/6)*5/6) = 97.2% regardless of opponent WS With S7 he'll wound 83.3% against either T4 or T5 Meaning he'll cause 7 * 0.972 * 0.833 = 5.67 wounds at the I5 step He's AP2 so you can only take invuls and FnP. Invuls would stack up like this: 6++ you'll suffer 4.73 wounds 5++ you'll suffer 3.8 wounds 4++ you'll suffer 2.84 wounds 3++ you'll suffer 1.9 wounds 2++ you'll suffer 0.95 wounds Following rounds he's A5 and S6 and will cause 4.05 wounds against T4 and 3.24 against T5, still at AP2 but before invuls. Halberd with A3 and S4 against him would mean only 3 * 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 wounds per round before save. Then he saves at 5++ 0.33 times so 0.75 * 0.67 = 0.5 wounds. It gets marginally better with Hammerhand and S6 as it should then be 0.84 wounds. That's without master crafted of course, I'll try to work what that would mean. I've never been a huge fan of it but perhaps it's worth the points after all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 I think it's becoming more and more apparent that dealing with the LR is part of the key here. A fotslogging Khârn is a hell of a lot more vulnerable than one hiding inside A14. Previously I've only had the lascannons on my own LR that was able to deal with A14 from a distance but I'm loading up on high strength/low AP distance shooting with two las/plasma razorbacks and two dreads that'll run multimelta and lascannon. I'll also stick a multi melta on the LR. Hopefully that can take of the LR, the next round I can kill off the berserkers with regular shooting (storm bolters) and then use the heavy stuff to finish off Khârn. I forgot that his eternal warrior only applies to force weapons, not all weapons. I'm still relatively new to GK and I think my problem has been that I thought we were pretty much unbeatable against power armour in melee as we all have power weapons so I made a list aimed at dealing with everything in CC. The problems started when someone showed up that kicked my ass thoroughly in CC and i had nothing else in my vocabulary to throw at him :) I don't see how my Tau would have any problems at all to deal with Khârn. Mass plasma, ion and fusion blasters would spell the death of him for sure :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 It's a pain because we have weapons that ignore most Marines. But Marines fighting Marines is such a gaaaay process, most of the time we're missing on both sides due to both needing 4s to hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 In my optimism I overlooked that master crafted only allows one failed to hit per turn, not all of them. With halberd and S4 it'll only give 0.38 wounds with the re-roll and 0.25 wounds per A so with A3 will make 0.88 wounds before saves. With hammerhand it's actually up to 1.42 wounds before saves but with 5++ it's back down to 0.98 wounds with A3. Should mean that with a hammer, if you survive long enough to actually get to strike, you should be very close to killing him each turn on average with A3 and master crafted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templar1 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A little know fact about me: I've had a Grey Knights army since their redux from Daemonhunters. LAtely my buddy, the Khorn-lover he is, takes this mob of Berserkers and Khârn, and I must admit it's difficult to deal with. However fear not! I've ha some success! I've found that a Lascannon/Multimelta cracks open a Land Raider good and Proper, and given its speed it's easy for the Stormraven to get into Melta range. After that the squad is very vulnerable to small arms fire and dies pretty quick to Psybolt Stormbolters and Psycannon fire. One time I even got an a few Incinerators on them. Another tactic I'm waiting to try out is a Dreadknight, which seems like it would work but admittably I haven't tried it yet. Hope this helps! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 10, 2014 Author Share Posted August 10, 2014 A little know fact about me: I've had a Grey Knights army since their redux from Daemonhunters. LAtely my buddy, the Khorn-lover he is, takes this mob of Berserkers and Khârn, and I must admit it's difficult to deal with. However fear not! I've ha some success! I've found that a Lascannon/Multimelta cracks open a Land Raider good and Proper, and given its speed it's easy for the Stormraven to get into Melta range. After that the squad is very vulnerable to small arms fire and dies pretty quick to Psybolt Stormbolters and Psycannon fire. One time I even got an a few Incinerators on them. Another tactic I'm waiting to try out is a Dreadknight, which seems like it would work but admittably I haven't tried it yet. Hope this helps! I was thinking of throwing my dreadknight in the direction of Khârn. I was going to try it last game we played but his khorne lord on a juggernaut ran over my dreadknight before I had a chance to try it. That damn sword that gives an extra d6 attacks is no fun at all :) I think you're spot on in you analysis though; crack the LR open with heavy weapons and let the high frequency shooting mop up the soft red content spilling out of the wreck :) If the rumour is true that LRs can be dedicated transports in our new codex that'll help my quest for more dakka greatly :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Yeah, all subject to change with a new codex on the way, but applying storm raven to land raider is a good way to go, Land Raiders do not like twin linked multi-meltas. Land Raiders can be an issue for pure Grey Knights with the 7th ed changes to rending meaning you basically have to shoot loads of psycannons to strip hull points off it. Stormraven, possibly with a few purifiers in it should kill the LR and give you something nasty to charge the beserkers with, Khârn will kill them the next round, but then he'll be on his own and can be safely shot to pieces with Storm Bolters or whatever happens to be lying around. Blind grenades are also nice and cheap on a GM to lessen the Beserkers/Kharns number of attacks. Psychotroke and Rad grenades will also do a number of the units effectiveness and giving the unit counter charge with grand strategy is good too. Especially if your GM took divination and can buff himself and his unit. If your lucky and get Precognition Khârn is screwed, but prescience alone will really help the GM and his unit deal with Khârn and the berserkers, especially if the GMs bodyguards have halberds and go before the beserkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templar1 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 A little know fact about me: I've had a Grey Knights army since their redux from Daemonhunters. LAtely my buddy, the Khorn-lover he is, takes this mob of Berserkers and Khârn, and I must admit it's difficult to deal with. However fear not! I've ha some success! I've found that a Lascannon/Multimelta cracks open a Land Raider good and Proper, and given its speed it's easy for the Stormraven to get into Melta range. After that the squad is very vulnerable to small arms fire and dies pretty quick to Psybolt Stormbolters and Psycannon fire. One time I even got an a few Incinerators on them. Another tactic I'm waiting to try out is a Dreadknight, which seems like it would work but admittably I haven't tried it yet. Hope this helps! I was thinking of throwing my dreadknight in the direction of Khârn. I was going to try it last game we played but his khorne lord on a juggernaut ran over my dreadknight before I had a chance to try it. That damn sword that gives an extra d6 attacks is no fun at all I think you're spot on in you analysis though; crack the LR open with heavy weapons and let the high frequency shooting mop up the soft red content spilling out of the wreck If the rumour is true that LRs can be dedicated transports in our new codex that'll help my quest for more dakka greatly The Dreadknight I brought up for a possible way to crack the Raider, but as for using one against Khârn? Nooooope. It'll die too quickly. Let's face it, Khârn just eats face in CC. Trying to find solutions for dealing with him via CC isn't very effective, IMO. His immunity to psychic things and force stuff only emphasizes this. Simply put, my tactic is to throw what I have, how I can, at him. Judicious application of firepower at range. He's high on the threat list, he's just a giant wrecking ball. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 The Dreadknight I brought up for a possible way to crack the Raider, but as for using one against Khârn? Nooooope. It'll die too quickly. Let's face it, Khârn just eats face in CC. Trying to find solutions for dealing with him via CC isn't very effective, IMO. His immunity to psychic things and force stuff only emphasizes this. Dreadknight would probably kill Khârn handily actually. Khârn is unlikely to kill you even on the charge, and if even one of your S10 attacks gets through his 5+ invul, he pops instantly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Yeah your dread knight really only has to survive one round of kharns attacks, especially if you equip with the sword Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3772819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Can Khârn call a challenge on the dreadknight? Because if Khârn is strength 6 or whatever on the charge then with 7 ws 7 attacks with hatred, he's f*cking up that dreadknight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Can Khârn call a challenge on the dreadknight? Because if Khârn is strength 6 or whatever on the charge then with 7 ws 7 attacks with hatred, he's f*cking up that dreadknight I'm quite sure that the dreadknight is a character so challenges apply to him. However, if I remember the rules right a challenge is issued "in general" and then I can choose which model to accept it with (given that they can accept, of course) or deny the challenge with the consequemces that follows? Things have changed a bit with the new rules of overspilling into and out of challenges, meaning if he has no other models I can still strike Khârn with my dreadknight even if he is in a challenge with another model, for example my GM with the staff? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Lucky for me, I don't have anyone playing him around here. I can't really add to much to this discussion other then maybe use 2 units to hit him. Tie him up with some interceptors and then nail him with hammernators via your own land raider delivery system. I know it would be nice if they introduced a great halberd for the DK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Plasma cannons/ guns are your friends, get an allied SM/SW and let him and his unit eat mass plasma. On the other hand, if you struggle with LR, get an assassin take care of it (turbo pen shot will make short work with LR of any kind ...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Can Khârn call a challenge on the dreadknight? Because if Khârn is strength 6 or whatever on the charge then with 7 ws 7 attacks with hatred, he's f*cking up that dreadknight Dreadknights are characters, so yes. Statisically, he hits with 6 attacks, wounds with 3 (Dreadknights are T6), you save 1 and the other two go through. At the Initative 4 step, you only need a single wound to go through to insta-gib. Dreadknights are probably the best hard counter to melee characters we have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Can Khârn call a challenge on the dreadknight? Because if Khârn is strength 6 or whatever on the charge then with 7 ws 7 attacks with hatred, he's f*cking up that dreadknight Dreadknights are characters, so yes. Statisically, he hits with 6 attacks, wounds with 3 (Dreadknights are T6), you save 1 and the other two go through. At the Initative 4 step, you only need a single wound to go through to insta-gib. Dreadknights are probably the best hard counter to melee characters we have. How is it with dreadknights and doomfists, does it not strike at I1 due to unwieldy or does that not apply to monstrous creatures? Can't recall the exact rules now and the sword at S6 isn't enough to instagib him. At the I4 step the dreadknight is most likely going to be hit by a bucket of S5 attacks from the berseriers. Luckily their AP suck so the dreadknight will get its 2+ but with enough wounds, some of the might make it through. I agree though that the dreadknight is a monster (pun not intended) in CC and would probably kill Khârn on statistics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lt051 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I thought the weird wording on Khârn meant nemesis weapons couldn't instant kill him, even if it's via their strength value (hammer, dcc weapons). Maybe that's been faq'ed but if not it's something to keep in mind Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/#findComment-3773319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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