Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 How is it with dreadknights and doomfists, does it not strike at I1 due to unwieldy or does that not apply to monstrous creatures? Can't recall the exact rules now and the sword at S6 isn't enough to instagib him. Nemesis doomfists aren't Unwieldy. Read the DCCW rules. A Dreadknight with a greatsword is still S10, due to his doomfist in the other hand. So yes, you still nuke Khârn on a single wound. At the I4 step the dreadknight is most likely going to be hit by a bucket of S5 attacks from the berseriers. Luckily their AP suck so the dreadknight will get its 2+ but with enough wounds, some of the might make it through. Not likely. They hit on a 4+, wound on a 5+, and you save on a 2+, with a 5+ FNP roll as well (all MC's have FNP now). I regularly shrug off entire armies worth of anti-infantry with Dreadknights, its AP2 that kills them. I thought the weird wording on Khârn meant nemesis weapons couldn't instant kill him, even if it's via their strength value (hammer, dcc weapons). Maybe that's been faq'ed but if not it's something to keep in mind No, his immunity to force weapon instant death is specific to the 'Force' power. The Dreadknight being S10 still means you insta-gib, as S10 is higher than twice Khârn's Toughness of 4. He is not an Eternal Warrior, its an important distinction (otherwise he'd shrug off powerfists in the same way). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lt051 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Ok, could have sworn the wording was "can't be instant killed by a force weapon" or something along those lines, but don't have the book on me to check, just remember it being an issue when it was released Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Where does it say in the rulebook that monstrous creatures get feel no pain Darius? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 I thought the weird wording on Khârn meant nemesis weapons couldn't instant kill him, even if it's via their strength value (hammer, dcc weapons). Maybe that's been faq'ed but if not it's something to keep in mindI think the wording is that he can't be instakilled by a force weapon but in a friendly game I don't think there'll be any problems to agree that the intension with the rule is activated force weapons, not the strength of the user wielding the weapon. Edit; it actually reads that if he suffers and unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon can't cause instant death on him. Unusually unclear wording :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 A Dreadknight with a greatsword is still S10, due to his doomfist in the other hand. So yes, you still nuke Khârn on a single wound. I thought that had been changed with the 7th FAQ which no longer states that dreadknights are S10 even with the greatsword like the 6th ed FAQ did? You're perfectly right about not being unwieldy, I don't know where I got that from but happy to learn new rules :) Not likely. They hit on a 4+, wound on a 5+, and you save on a 2+, with a 5+ FNP roll as well (all MC's have FNP now). I regularly shrug off entire armies worth of anti-infantry with Dreadknights, its AP2 that kills them. I must have missed the FNP for MCs, couldn't find it under the MC entry in the glossary either. Do you know where in the rulebook it can be found? Don't mean do distrust you, it's just that I haven't heard it before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Khârn only has a 3+ 5++ A few Halberds will put him down before he ever swings his axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 'Blessing of the Blood God: Khârn and his unit always pass their Deny The Witch rolls on a 2+. In addition, if Khârn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict Instant Death on him" pg. 59, Codex: Chaos Space Marines From the wording its clear they mean you can't insta-gib Khârn by using your 'Force' power. However, he is not an Eternal Warrior, so if the Strength of the wound he suffers is double his Toughness or higher, he'll die from Instant Death. Ergo, the Dreadknight's S10 insta-gibs him anyway. Where does it say in the rulebook that monstrous creatures get feel no pain Darius? Whoops, was reading the 'Gargantuan MC' entry. Regular MC's do not have FNP by default, my bad. I thought that had been changed with the 7th FAQ which no longer states that dreadknights are S10 even with the greatsword like the 6th ed FAQ did? We never need the FAQ, that was simply to shut up all the moaners who play other armies. By RAW, in our codex, if you equip a Dreadknight with a greatsword, you get +1A (as neither the greatsword or doomfist are specialist weapons), and you re-roll to-hit/to-wound/penetrate armour in melee from the greatsword (as it states 'wielder', not 'if you use this weapon'), and you're S10 from the doomfist. If an opponent asks, tell him you're using the doomfist to attack, but benefiting from the greatsword's buffs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3773942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Just an observation here about the great sword. I have been trying to figure it's strength out too and came to realize that you have to chose which, the fist or the sword. Stay with me here, I don't like that either, but why else would the DK need hammerhand? If you can point me in the direction in the rules where str 10 is always dominate, please share. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3774227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Just an observation here about the great sword. I have been trying to figure it's strength out too and came to realize that you have to chose which, the fist or the sword. Stay with me here, I don't like that either, but why else would the DK need hammerhand? If you can point me in the direction in the rules where str 10 is always dominate, please share. You're actually correct for all weapons that grant benefits (lighting claws grant re-rolls and power fist are double strength) But they say attacks made "By THIS" weapon have the shred/double strength rule, BUT the greatsword says the "wielder" can re-roll. The wielder means the model and NOT the weapon itself. The wording for the greatsword will probably be changed in the new codex though..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3774238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Cool beans, thanks for that. Shiney! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3774291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjulhu Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Isn't the GK solution to most elite melee focused armies a combination of Halberds, rad grenades, psychtroke grenades, divination and overwatch? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3774407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Just an observation here about the great sword. I have been trying to figure it's strength out too and came to realize that you have to chose which, the fist or the sword. Stay with me here, I don't like that either, but why else would the DK need hammerhand? If you can point me in the direction in the rules where str 10 is always dominate, please share. You're actually correct for all weapons that grant benefits (lighting claws grant re-rolls and power fist are double strength) But they say attacks made "By THIS" weapon have the shred/double strength rule, BUT the greatsword says the "wielder" can re-roll. The wielder means the model and NOT the weapon itself. The wording for the greatsword will probably be changed in the new codex though..... I agree RAW definitely let you hit with the doomfist and still re-roll everything if you've bought a sword. GW ended up in an even weirder place when they in the 6th ed FAQ stated that indeed a dreadknight with sword can still hit with the fist and re-roll everything, then for 7th they release an FAQ that doesn't even mention it. It either means they considered this explained already in the previous FAQ and no need to mention it again in the new one or they actually wanted to change this rule, in which case it undoubtedly would have been much more clear if they added a wording about this in the FAQ instead of leaving it silent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3774608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Just an observation here about the great sword. I have been trying to figure it's strength out too and came to realize that you have to chose which, the fist or the sword. Stay with me here, I don't like that either, but why else would the DK need hammerhand? If you can point me in the direction in the rules where str 10 is always dominate, please share. It never did. Mat was just lazy and copy-pasted 'Hammerhand' onto anything not a vehicle. As for our 7th edition FAQ, probably the same principle. It isn't the first time GW have given useless upgrades or options to our units (digital weapons on Brotherhood Champions... ) The wording for the greatsword will probably be changed in the new codex though..... Probably. In all honesty you rarely need the S10 anyway, S8 would be sufficient (ie me bothering to cast 'Hammerhand'). S8 re-rolling everything generally means a dead tank or hero/MC. Isn't the GK solution to most elite melee focused armies a combination of Halberds, rad grenades, psychtroke grenades, divination and overwatch? Nah, just shoot them to death ;) . Whatever survives has little hope of charging Purifiers with halberds and expecting to win. I don't see melee heavy armies much anymore, even Nids and Orks go shooty these days. I agree RAW definitely let you hit with the doomfist and still re-roll everything if you've bought a sword. GW ended up in an even weirder place when they in the 6th ed FAQ stated that indeed a dreadknight with sword can still hit with the fist and re-roll everything, then for 7th they release an FAQ that doesn't even mention it. It either means they considered this explained already in the previous FAQ and no need to mention it again in the new one or they actually wanted to change this rule, in which case it undoubtedly would have been much more clear if they added a wording about this in the FAQ instead of leaving it silent. My usual rule of thumb is you stick with the most current ruling (as GW are notorious for not carrying over changes made in earlier FAQ's, especially ones from an earlier edition of the main rules). Seeing as you say, they've avoided the issue, they probably didn't see a need to FAQ it this time. New codex will probably change all this though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3776651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I agree with Ishagu, a few halberds on purifiers, or even a grand master will send Khârn scurrying back to his blood god. Are you looking to strictly stick with GK (in preparation for our new codex) or would you mind using henchmen as either an ally or a core slot (for now). If so I would suggest Death Cult Assassins. They will tear apart Khârn and his bowl of Khorn flakes before they can even shout a cliché. It will be cheaper than grey knights too and you still get your 5++ to match Khârn's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3780375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 I agree with Ishagu, a few halberds on purifiers, or even a grand master will send Khârn scurrying back to his blood god. Are you looking to strictly stick with GK (in preparation for our new codex) or would you mind using henchmen as either an ally or a core slot (for now). If so I would suggest Death Cult Assassins. They will tear apart Khârn and his bowl of Khorn flakes before they can even shout a cliché. It will be cheaper than grey knights too and you still get your 5++ to match Khârn's. With henchemen I don't think dealing with Khârn is all that difficult. As you mention, death cult assassins work or one can just melta and plasma him and his bloody retinue to death. I'm imagining that a tag team of two squads with max multi and plasma acolytes and servitors and someone with prescience will roast most things rather efficiently. I found it much more of a challenge with pure GK though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3780392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 one can just melta and plasma him and his bloody retinue to deathThat was my initial thought but if he's last out the Land Raider or just hanging back then you won't be able to target him directly wit ranged weapons. I'd use halberds. Here's what I'd do... Take rad grenades and activate hammerhand (just throw 10+ dice down, if he's taking Khârn he wont have the psykers to deny them all.) Then with the GKGM challenge Khârn. With rad grenades and hammerhand you will insta-gib him anyway. If hammerhand didn't work for whatever reason, then the justicar equipped with a warding staff should challenge Khârn and possibly deflect a few blows and then when the squad +GKGM wipes out the bezerkers, all the extra wounds will be placed on Khârn. For laughs, you could take a brotherhood champion, they strike at initiative 10 against characters in a challenge when using rapier strike, or use blade shield to block blows until he has no where to hide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/294902-how-to-deal-with-kharn/page/2/#findComment-3780426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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