Anti-air after new codex

[climbingcog]

So, what are people thinking about anti-air for SW after the new codex has been released?

 

Pay the extra for flakk missles on Long Fangs or go with Stormwolf/Stormfang?

[viddar]

Personally I'd go with the stormwolf. It has four good weapons one of which is on a turret.

[Squark]

Stormwolf or allied Stalkers, hydras, or fliers. Flakk missiles are a bad joke.

[knife&fork]

Stormwolf with multi-melta sponsons and las cannons. Probably one of the best anti air units in the game if you don't count the necron scythe.

 

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.  

 

 

EDIT: Vengeance batteries with quad lasers deserve a mention.  

[Kastellan Kong]

Flakk missile Scouts. It's the only way I'll be able to fit in any AA at all in my list currently.

[climbingcog]

Are flakk missles really that bad?

[Squark]

Missile Fang squad with 2 sets of flakk missiles- 185 points.

Stormtalon with skyhammer missiles (which are decent, by the way. Not ideal on the Stormfang, but very solid here) ~125

Stalker/hydra ~85 points

 

The flakk fangs output less fire (two S7 shots and 3 snapfired missiles vs 4-7 Twin-linked shots) for many more points. Now, admittedly Long Fangs are more versatile, but they're also priority targets and can't hide in reserves and shoot a flier the turn they come on.

 

If you have some points leftover at the end of list writing, flakk missiles on a few Long Fangs isn't bad, but they are NOT a primary anti-air unit.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that Str 7 ap4 heavy 3 missiles are bad especially if you can shoot both sponsons at stuff in front of you. You can't get an explosion result but you can get immobilized which can be as good. Plus the 60 inch range seems like a win over a 24 inch (12 for melta rule) meltagun. However all I have is theory do if you have extra experience that I do not I am open to hearing it, it just seems wierd to me that those weapons would be bad.

[Squark]

 

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that Str 7 ap4 heavy 3 missiles are bad especially if you can shoot both sponsons at stuff in front of you. You can't get an explosion result but you can get immobilized which can be as good. Plus the 60 inch range seems like a win over a 24 inch (12 for melta rule) meltagun. However all I have is theory do if you have extra experience that I do not I am open to hearing it, it just seems wierd to me that those weapons would be bad.

Skyhammer missiles aren't bad, its just that the stormwolf only gets a single one unless I'm mistaken.

[climbingcog]

 

 

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.

 

I find it hard to believe that Str 7 ap4 heavy 3 missiles are bad especially if you can shoot both sponsons at stuff in front of you. You can't get an explosion result but you can get immobilized which can be as good. Plus the 60 inch range seems like a win over a 24 inch (12 for melta rule) meltagun. However all I have is theory do if you have extra experience that I do not I am open to hearing it, it just seems wierd to me that those weapons would be bad.

Skyhammer missiles aren't bad, its just that the stormwolf only gets a single one unless I'm mistaken.

 

 

The stormwolf can replace the heavy bolters with skyhammer missle launcher - doesn't say one use only. It is the "stormstrike missles" on the stormfang that are one use only.

[Squark]

 

 

 

 

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.

 

I find it hard to believe that Str 7 ap4 heavy 3 missiles are bad especially if you can shoot both sponsons at stuff in front of you. You can't get an explosion result but you can get immobilized which can be as good. Plus the 60 inch range seems like a win over a 24 inch (12 for melta rule) meltagun. However all I have is theory do if you have extra experience that I do not I am open to hearing it, it just seems wierd to me that those weapons would be bad.

Skyhammer missiles aren't bad, its just that the stormwolf only gets a single one unless I'm mistaken.

The stormwolf can replace the heavy bolters with skyhammer missle launcher - doesn't say one use only. It is the "stormstrike missles" on the stormfang that are one use only.

No, I'm saying both sponsons are actually part of a single weapon- that's why it's a few swap from the bolter sponsons, not an upgrade like it is for the Talon's single Twin-linked heavy bolter.

[knife&fork]

 

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.

 

I find it hard to believe that Str 7 ap4 heavy 3 missiles are bad especially if you can shoot both sponsons at stuff in front of you. You can't get an explosion result but you can get immobilized which can be as good. Plus the 60 inch range seems like a win over a 24 inch (12 for melta rule) meltagun. However all I have is theory do if you have extra experience that I do not I am open to hearing it, it just seems wierd to me that those weapons would be bad.

 

 

For anti-flyer duty consider this: 

The meltas are two shots instead of 3, but twinlinked. Quite good, specially if you need to jink. 

Easier to get a pen or glance on every shot, particularly if it's a target without ceramite plating. 

Pens are potentially worth a lot more than glances as you have additional chances to down flyers when you get to roll on the table. AP1 pens are better than AP3-6 but that goes without saying.

 

For flying MCs the meltas will ignore all armor saves, as most of them have a 3+.

All of the above also goes for ground targets. 

 

Range (as in reach) is rarely an issue, probably only if you play hammer and anvil deployment and want to nail a target near the opponents table edge. If you want to keep your distance most skyfire units can reach you anyway. A very fragile flyer like the talon might want to stand off but it's not needed for a stormwolf or stormraven.

Also consider how low the SW flyer is mounted on its stand. Unless you take an aggressive approach you are very likely to provide the enemy with cover (negating the need to jink) or even LoS blockage. 

[Valerian]

I wonder if folks would mind me using my old Land Raider as a counts-as Stormwolf....you know, maybe for a while until I get the hang of using it and decide I actually want to invest in another big centerpiece model for my army.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Is anyone actually going to give the Stormfang Gunship a chance? I realize that most of the theory and math saying that the Stormfang isn't as good in anti-armour and anti air, but damn does that model look sexy! I actually like the Stormfang almost as much as the Stormwolf. To me, it seems to me like it's not that the Stormfang gunship is bad, its just that the Stormwolf seems to overshadow it even in its intended role of anti armour.

 

Call me an idiot for wanting to go against trend and wisdom, but I think I will give the Stormfang a chance. Provided my FLGS manages to get enough stock for my needs. For transportation, I still have my drop pods and rhinos and don't plan to go bloodclaws anytime soon. With the nerf to Grey Hunter's close combat ability due to loss of Mark of Wulfen and wolf standard nerfs, I think I'll stick to drop pods and rhinos. Stormwolf seems to be made for bloodclaws in mind.

 

Another main reason I think I want the storm fang is that many Space marine players in my FLGS use Land Raiders, which I think the Stormfang's Hellfrost Destructor with lance rule will be useful, needing 4s to glance instead of 6s, with a 33% chance to pen. combined with my alpha strike wolf guard with combi meltas, should be enough to kill whatever needs killing by Turn 2, whether it is a tank or MC. Not to mention the dispersed mode of S6 AP3, which will give nightmares to marines not in cover.

[Ishagu]

The Space Wolf gunship is incredible AA, superior in that regard to a Stormraven.

 

No flyer will survive 2 TL Multi Meltas, a TL Las Cannon and a TL Helfrost Cannon.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

 

Stormstrike missiles and skyhammers are not solid performers in 7th, avoid these options whenever possible.

 

I find it hard to believe that Str 7 ap4 heavy 3 missiles are bad especially if you can shoot both sponsons at stuff in front of you. You can't get an explosion result but you can get immobilized which can be as good. Plus the 60 inch range seems like a win over a 24 inch (12 for melta rule) meltagun. However all I have is theory do if you have extra experience that I do not I am open to hearing it, it just seems wierd to me that those weapons would be bad.

For anti-flyer duty consider this:

The meltas are two shots instead of 3, but twinlinked. Quite good, specially if you need to jink.

Easier to get a pen or glance on every shot, particularly if it's a target without ceramite plating.

Pens are potentially worth a lot more than glances as you have additional chances to down flyers when you get to roll on the table. AP1 pens are better than AP3-6 but that goes without saying.

 

For flying MCs the meltas will ignore all armor saves, as most of them have a 3+.

All of the above also goes for ground targets.

 

Range (as in reach) is rarely an issue, probably only if you play hammer and anvil deployment and want to nail a target near the opponents table edge. If you want to keep your distance most skyfire units can reach you anyway. A very fragile flyer like the talon might want to stand off but it's not needed for a stormwolf or stormraven.

Also consider how low the SW flyer is mounted on its stand. Unless you take an aggressive approach you are very likely to provide the enemy with cover (negating the need to jink) or even LoS blockage.

Should be 2 shot instead of 6 as in any scenario with 2 melta shots you would be getting 6 missile shots.

 

while I see your point about no need to stand off, I personally like the option as it often seems that my intended target strive to stay our of melta range and even the non bonus range of the gun because the possibility to one shot is still there. Against flying monstrous creatures I agree the melta may be better but I have fought 1 exactly once so I'm not positive.

[Squark]

No. There is only one skyhammer missile launcher on the Stormfang. It's just mounted on both sides of the ship since they're fairly bulky weapons. 3 shots is correct.

[Ishagu]

The Skyhammer missile launcher is new to most SW players, but it's something I've had a lot of experience with as my Stormtalon can take it.

 

I personally don't feel it's a weapon worth taking over a TL Las Cannon or MM

[Squark]

The Skyhammer missile launcher is new to most SW players, but it's something I've had a lot of experience with as my Stormtalon can take it.

 

I personally don't feel it's a weapon worth taking over a TL Las Cannon or MM

For stormtalons, its comparable to their assault cannon and cheap. But for a Stormwolf, for only a small cost you can turn 1 skyhammer missile launcher that doesn't mesh with the craft's other armaments into two multi-meltas that work perfectly with the Stormwolf's other guns.

[Fedorarogue]

I personally think that if you aren't going to use the flyers (which are superior to all our other options) I would run a Runepriest with the Helm of Durfast and putting him on a quad gun. Jink is a cover save after all. So you do get to straight up ignore it and then a quad gun can do just crazy things!

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

No. There is only one skyhammer missile launcher on the Stormfang. It's just mounted on both sides of the ship since they're fairly bulky weapons. 3 shots is correct.

Ah, well that is both crazily misleading and very counter intuitive, but if that's the case then his point makes more sense.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Wouldn't the Stormfang be superior against high AV vehicles on the ground with it's Lance ability for it's main cannon? I do agree that the Stormwolf appears to be the better anti-flyer, for the right price....

[Wispy]

Are flakk missles really that bad?

Yeah, curious about this as well. Seems like 5 of them from a longfang squad could do some damage.

[skeletoro]

Well, think about it this way. You only glance a storm raven on a 5. And you cannot achieve an Explodes! Result.

 

On the other hand, let's compare to a storm wolf. Each of the twin-linked multi meltas and twin-linked hellfire cannon (assuming ceramite plating AV12) glance on a 4, and on a 5+ penetrate at AP1 (explodes on a 5+). That's (at a VERY conservative approximiation) 50% more damaging than a flak missile. The TL lascannon glances on a 3, though it's AP2. Still, to say a lascannon hit is twice as damaging vs the AV12 flyer is an understatement. They're all twin-linked so that increases their output by a third. By my count, that makes the storm wolf at least ~8 times more damaging than a long fang with flakk - this approximation doesn't even take into account the AP1/2. So let's round it up to two full long fang flakk packs.

 

That's 430 points. The storm wolf is 235.

[Wispy]

Well, think about it this way. You only glance a storm raven on a 5. And you cannot achieve an Explodes! Result.

 

On the other hand, let's compare to a storm wolf. Each of the twin-linked multi meltas and twin-linked hellfire cannon (assuming ceramite plating AV12) glance on a 4, and on a 5+ penetrate at AP1 (explodes on a 5+). That's (at a VERY conservative approximiation) 50% more damaging than a flak missile. The TL lascannon glances on a 3, though it's AP2. Still, to say a lascannon hit is twice as damaging vs the AV12 flyer is an understatement. They're all twin-linked so that increases their output by a third. By my count, that makes the storm wolf at least ~8 times more damaging than a long fang with flakk - this approximation doesn't even take into account the AP1/2. So let's round it up to two full long fang flakk packs.

 

That's 430 points. The storm wolf is 235.

 

I basically never played since 5th Edition ended, so I wonder am I missing a rule I don't know about? Wouldn't the stormwolf's fire on other flyers only be snap shots compared to the skyfire quality of the flakk missiles?