Grey Hunter Squad points cost in new codex

[climbingcog]

So, when comparing the cost of previous/new codex points for Grey Hunters, for the particular load out I prefer it seems to work out as:

 

NEW - 263pts

9 Grey Hunters with power weapon, CCWs, Wolf Standard, 2 meltaguns

1 WGPL with power fist and combi-melta

 

OLD - 208pts

9 Grey Hunters with power weapon, Wolf Standard, 1 meltagun

1 WGPL with power first and combi-melta

 

 

Seems quite a significant jump. Is it worth it on points?

 

Extra meltagun, new potential of getting Out Flank at start of game, nearby units (and current unit) re-roll morale checks and get +1 attack.

 

I'm not necessarily against the changes - just curious.

[Valerian]

Well, it is a tough call.  I, for one, am leaving the Pack Leaders out of most of my units - they're base price is up, and the Combi-Weapons prices are up, so I'm just leaving them out for now.  I also don't plan on spamming the CCWs throughout my Hunters anymore.  I'm using the points saved there for other things, like putting a Plasma Pistol in the unit to offset the loss of the Combi-Weapon.  Also, only one of your Hunter packs can get the Wolf Standard, so that won't be an expense to worry about outside of just one of your units.

 

V

[Squark]

Wolf Standard is only for one pack, so the rest are cheaper. Also, it seems like you're overspending on wargear.

[climbingcog]

Well, it is a tough call.  I, for one, am leaving the Pack Leaders out of most of my units - they're base price is up, and the Combi-Weapons prices are up, so I'm just leaving them out for now.  I also don't plan on spamming the CCWs throughout my Hunters anymore.  I'm using the points saved there for other things, like putting a Plasma Pistol in the unit to offset the loss of the Combi-Weapon.  Also, only one of your Hunter packs can get the Wolf Standard, so that won't be an expense to worry about outside of just one of your units.

 

V

 

So what does your Wolf Standard unit look like and/or a generic unit look like?

[captain fabian]

Man all those changes........I agree pack leaders are not so worth any more and definitely not with a PF since he can be singled out. I would build 7-10 member packs to camp on objectives and let other killers do their work now. 

[Valor]

My plasma squad is now 10 men with 2 plasma guns, no CCW and no WGPL. Comes in at 170 pts. My Melta Squads now at 10 men with 2 Melta guns, CCW, WGPL w/ claw and Combi. Comes in at 218. I think if you skimp on upgrades for objective sitter/backfield GH units, the cost increase of your podded/close range GH units will offset each other.

[Thunder_god]

Would a pack leader with a power weapon/ storm shield combo be viable? Or just a waste of points?

[climbingcog]

My plasma squad is now 10 men with 2 plasma guns, no CCW and no WGPL. Comes in at 170 pts. My Melta Squads now at 10 men with 2 Melta guns, CCW, WGPL w/ claw and Combi. Comes in at 218. I think if you skimp on upgrades for objective sitter/backfield GH units, the cost increase of your podded/close range GH units will offset each other.

 

That's helpful for comparing. Do you have an example list made up yet?

[Valerian]

 

Well, it is a tough call.  I, for one, am leaving the Pack Leaders out of most of my units - they're base price is up, and the Combi-Weapons prices are up, so I'm just leaving them out for now.  I also don't plan on spamming the CCWs throughout my Hunters anymore.  I'm using the points saved there for other things, like putting a Plasma Pistol in the unit to offset the loss of the Combi-Weapon.  Also, only one of your Hunter packs can get the Wolf Standard, so that won't be an expense to worry about outside of just one of your units.

 

V

 

So what does your Wolf Standard unit look like and/or a generic unit look like?

 

 

I've got four different 'styles' of packs that I'm still tinkering with, 2 Forward Consolidation, deployed by Drop Pods, 2 Rear Consolidation, 1 Assault, deployed by Drop Pod.

 

The two Rear Consolidation are just 5x Hunter packs with a Plasma Gun in each, used to secure rear Objectives and try to keep pressure off of the Long Fangs.

 

The two Forward Consolidation are 10x Hunter packs with double Melta, a Plasma Pistol, and a Power Axe.

 

The Assault Pack is 9x Hunters with single Melta, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe, Wolf Standard, and a Pack Leader (I'm still figuring out how to configure him, but probably a Power Fist).  This unit will be joined by Ragnar Blackmane.

 

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention that the Assault Hunter pack will have the CCWs, too.

 

 

V

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I ran a 10 man pack with 2 meltaguns and and a pack leader with power fist combimelta all ccw. With the pod came out at 258. The power fist was useless and I will either move it to a hunter or remove it entirely, but the 3 meltagun pod was awesome melted a land raider right off the bat. For 233 (no fist) I think I will be keeping this unit in my lists.

[climbingcog]

I've got four different 'styles' of packs that I'm still tinkering with, 2 Forward Consolidation, deployed by Drop Pods, 2 Rear Consolidation, 1 Assault, deployed by Drop Pod.

 

The two Rear Consolidation are just 5x Hunter packs with a Plasma Gun in each, used to secure rear Objectives and try to keep pressure off of the Long Fangs.

 

The two Forward Consolidation are 10x Hunter packs with double Melta, a Plasma Pistol, and a Power Axe.

 

The Assault Pack is 9x Hunters with single Melta, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe, Wolf Standard, and a Pack Leader (I'm still figuring out how to configure him, but probably a Power Fist).  This unit will be joined by Ragnar Blackmane.

 

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention that the Assault Hunter pack will have the CCWs, too.

 

 

V

 

Do you find that the 5 man squads last?

 

Do you think Ragnar is preferable to Ulrik for an "assault" squad? Ulrik seems to really add a lot to a unit!

[Squark]

Ulrik is a better force multiplier, but Ragnar has am edge in close combat. Also, Val's a fan of Ragnar, so there's that.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Up front I don't mind the new points cost so much, however I do feel kind of expensive trying to recreate my 6th edition lists with the 7th updates. 

I played against necrons yesterday and was throroughly impressed by my bare bones drop pod GH Packs that tarpitted a full unit of immortals in close combat from turn 2 through the end of the game at turn 5. I agree with Valerian that it's really only worth it to Have one... maybe two at the most dedicated close combat/assault squads. And have the rest of the GH Packs be bare bones plus a special weapon for objective secured camping. I don't know if it's worth all the points when it comes to a kitted out Pack now, especially when you can do so much with cheap Grey Hunters. 

[climbingcog]

Up front I don't mind the new points cost so much, however I do feel kind of expensive trying to recreate my 6th edition lists with the 7th updates. 

 

I played against necrons yesterday and was throroughly impressed by my bare bones drop pod GH Packs that tarpitted a full unit of immortals in close combat from turn 2 through the end of the game at turn 5. I agree with Valerian that it's really only worth it to Have one... maybe two at the most dedicated close combat/assault squads. And have the rest of the GH Packs be bare bones plus a special weapon for objective secured camping. I don't know if it's worth all the points when it comes to a kitted out Pack now, especially when you can do so much with cheap Grey Hunters. 

 

What did you list look like? Still trying to get a feel for things and seeing a whole picture would be useful but few lists posted on the SW lists area yet from seasoned players.

[Valerian]

Do you find that the 5 man squads last?

Don't know, as I haven't played them like this yet I'm just thinking about the new ways to use what I already own and have painted, and this was the simplest solution for me, by taking a 10x pack with double Plasma and splitting it in half to cover multiple rear Objectives without an additional investment of points. If it doesn't work out, I can reconsolidate the pack back to 10 to focus on a single rear Objective, and cover other Objectives with different units.

Do you think Ragnar is preferable to Ulrik for an "assault" squad? Ulrik seems to really add a lot to a unit!

Nah, Ulrik is probably much better, but it's Ragnar's Great Company, so I kinda feel obligated to use him

Ulrik is a better force multiplier, but Ragnar has am edge in close combat. Also, Val's a fan of Ragnar, so there's that.

Exactly!

[Kasper_Hawser]

I just tried to rebuild my list using the 7th ed costs while remaining the same.

 

My impressions is this - Grey Hunter costs overall went up, but this is greatly offset by the huge point decrease in nearly all our HQ. I mean Bjorn went down like 50 points, Rune Priest as well. Of course I'm talking barebones without taking into account upgrades, but you get the picture.

 

Also due to Wolf standard being one item per detachment only, this frees up quite a few points in my packs, although not that much. Normally I put my standard in melta or flamer packs.

 

Regarding the points increase in special weapons, in the end I think it increased the points of our Grey Hunters only marginally. It actually encourages us to use shooty Grey Hunters with no CCW. Not to mention we can now add a wolf guard with a combi weapon without sacrficing the second special weapon. I think a Wolf guard upgrade with combi weapon will come up to 20 points, whereas before we had to split a wolf guard with combi weapon which cost about 23 points and sacrifice the second special weapon unless we footslog at 11 man. Now we don't have too.

 

My impression in the end? We wolves may actually have gotten even more versatile despite the obvious nerfs to Grey Hunters. Our Codex may have others beat  in terms of overall balance of units against each other.

 

To Summarise my new impression of Grey hunters:

 

Cons - points have increase if we stick to CCW and double special weapons layout, which will quickly bloat the points. Even then, not really by much, maybe 10-20 points more than normal.

         - Loss of Mark of Wulfen means our CCW is much less scary, either on the charge or in counter attack.

 

Pros - As in previous codex, one must take into account the whole codex in conjunction with each other. And the main thing that offsets the first Con above is the MASSIVE points decrease in all our HQs, at least on the naked cost. Virtually every HQ except the Wolf Lord and Wolf priest, which I haven't analysed the upgrade costs, have gone on a diet and shaped up. Biggest among them is good old Bjorn, who found time to exercise and lost 50 points in weight! The rest, Rune priest, Ragnar, Njal, wolf guard battle leader, Ulrik, even upgrade characters like Lukas and Arjac have decreased massively even more than Bjorn.

 

Correction about Wolf Lord, they now come with Belt of Russ which if you take into account old points costs, means in reality, wolf lords also came in cheaper.

 

Oddly, I find that the wolf priest was the only one nerfed, his terminator upgrade seem more expensive and he lost his saga of hunter as well as the ability to take a powerfist. Then again, this is somewhat offset by the fact that he can take the Relic of the Fangs which are mostly awesome and reasonably costed, as well as special issue wargear which are mostly cheaper than previous codex (bike and jet pack).

 

      - In my opinion, the Wolf Standard is may actually be a buff provided we can keep the standard bearer alive and in the thick of the battle with other units joining in the fun. Bear in mind that the effects of the standard are now permanent as long as he is alive, as opposed to the one use wolf standard previously. Might actually make a fully tooled CCW Grey Hunter actually more powerful than previously with Mark of the Wulfen.

 

let me see....

 

Full ten man squad with mark of the wulfen = [10 X (2attack + 1 on the charge)] + (1+D6)

                                                                   = 30 standard attacks + 1-7 attacks

                                                                   = 31-37 attacks (with 7 possible rends, statistically should have one.

 

Full ten man squad with current wolf standard = 10 X (2attack + 1 on the charge + 1 bonus from standard)

                                                                         = 40 attacks, albeit with no rending. But if have power axe or fist in the group, will have 3 AP2 attacks instead of just 2.

 

It's hard to say, but I think basically the more we can get into combat within range of the standard, which is very respectable 12" by the way, the more money we'll get out of our cost. Not to mention it affects ALL other space wolves units. Thunderwolves, dreadnoughts, Bjorn himself, MURDERFANG?!?! All getting extra 1 attack? Oh my!

 

Crap, I just checked the Space Marine Codex as I suddenly realised I had seen the Wolf Standard rules before. It's actually exactly the same as the Chapter Banner which can be taken by the Honour Guard of Space Marine chapter masters. Difference is that apart from the huge cost difference between honour guard and Grey Hunters, honour guard actually come with 2++ armour to increase survivability. Suddenly I'm angry, not so much they changed the Wolf Standard to what it is, BUT ONCE AGAIN WHERE IS THE FLAVOUR OF THE SPACE WOLVES ARMY! They're cutting and pasting special rules from the Space Marines codex with very little unique stuff to Space Wolves

 

Still, as I write this, I'm feeling optimistic about our codex compared to when initially I read it, as at the time all I could think about was the nerf to Grey Hunters. Now as I look at the whole codex, I'm thinking....

 

 

.... VLKA FENRYKA CONTINUES TO ROCK AND WILL KICK EVERYONE'S BUTTS!

[Mr. Bleak]

Kasper, while the costs of HQ's did indeed go down across the board, would you agree with me when I say that in the new book that cost decrease is negated by the fact that we need to take more HQ's to get the most out of the book? For example, SWU requires a minimum of two HQ's, and if you want to get the most out of SWU as a CC unit delivery system via Outflank, you need to take more than 2 HQ's. And when you start adding on the good stuff (Helm of Durfast for a shooty Rune Priest, an Armour of Russ WL or WGBL, Wolf Priest with Wulfen Stone) those HQ's really start to get expensive, making your choice of Troops and other combat units very limited and important. I don't know about you, but in the old book, my Grey Hunters did the heavy lifting in every phase of the game, and that was fine, because I could take 4 full squads at 1850 and still have plenty of supporting units. Now I feel that Grey Hunters have taken a backseat to Blood Claws as a mainline assault unit as a result of cost just as much as attack capability, which brings about more cost issues, because if you're taking Blood Claws, you need an Assault Vehicle, like a Land Raider or a StormFang, and if you don't take an assault vehicle, you need to take 15 of them so that you can take some wounds while you either footslog or arrive from Outflank. In general I feel that Grey Hunters are now too expensive as a mainline unit and will be relegated to a backfield roll of 5 dudes with a plasma gun (which is the same cost as last edition at 85 points, but they lost CCW's :/) Alternatively, one melta-suicide squad isn't a bad idea, but is perhaps best at 5 guys with 1 melta and a WGPL with a combi-melta, as opposed to falling into the very expensive 3 melta and CCW trap. 

 

Here's what I've come up with at 1850. 

 

Rune Priest, ML2, Runic Armour, Psychic Hood, Plasma Pistol, Helm of Durfast

Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Thunderwolf, Armour of Russ, Frost Axe, Storm Shield

Wolf Priest, Runic Armour, Wulfenstone

 

15 Blood Claws, 2x Flamer, WGPL w/Fist and Combi

5 GH, Melta Gun, WGPL w/combi-melta, Drop Pod

5 GH, Plasma Gun, Razorback w/ Las/Plas

5 GH, Plasma Gun

 

StormWolf, Multi-Meltas

3 Thunderwolf Cav, 3 Storm Shields, 1 Wolf Claw

 

6 Long Fangs, 5 Missiles

6 Long Fangs, 5 Missiles

 

The StormWolf carries the Blood Claws and is also the primary anti-air, with secondary anti-air going to the Rune Priest (running Prescience and Living Lightning) and his GH in Razorback. That's two incredible CC units, delivered by land and air. The GH are cheap this way, and should still provide a meaningful asset to the army. 

[Squark]

You do not need to take a Space Wolves Unleashed detachment. As long as your army has HQ units and troops, you can take a Combine Arms detachment. In fact, since that and an allied detachment are the only way you can get objective secured.

[Mr. Bleak]

But if you take the Combined Arms detachment you don't get the third HQ, and you don't get the possibility for Outflank. And if you choose to use SWU and choose to use the Warlord traits in the codex, you get the re-roll (yes, I know Battle-Forged also get a re-roll)

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Not sure the 3 melta ccw squad is a trap, mine 2 worked pretty well yesterday dropping a land raider (making its points back if u believe in that sort of thing) and then going above and beyond by dropping 6 of the death company inside the land raider before getting wiped out. And honestly wasn't surprising that they were wiped out as 15 death company and a chaplain running out a land raider is scary brutal, just glad I took some down.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Up front I don't mind the new points cost so much, however I do feel kind of expensive trying to recreate my 6th edition lists with the 7th updates. 

 

I played against necrons yesterday and was throroughly impressed by my bare bones drop pod GH Packs that tarpitted a full unit of immortals in close combat from turn 2 through the end of the game at turn 5. I agree with Valerian that it's really only worth it to Have one... maybe two at the most dedicated close combat/assault squads. And have the rest of the GH Packs be bare bones plus a special weapon for objective secured camping. I don't know if it's worth all the points when it comes to a kitted out Pack now, especially when you can do so much with cheap Grey Hunters. 

 

What did you list look like? Still trying to get a feel for things and seeing a whole picture would be useful but few lists posted on the SW lists area yet from seasoned players.

 

1500 Drop Pod list 

 

HQ

Rune Priest: Master of Runes, Psychic hood, Runic Armor, the bite of fenris (joins LF Pack 4)

 

GH Pack 1: x10 GH, x2 Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, x10 CCW, Drop Pod

GH Pack 2: x9 GH, Melta Gun, Drop Pod

GH Pack 3: x9 GH, Melta Gun, Drop Pod

GH Pack 4: x5 GH, Heavy Bolter Razorback

 

Thunderwolves Cavalry: CCW/SS, TH/Bolt Pistol, Frost Axe/SS

 

Long Fangs Pack: x3 Lascannon, x2 Missile Launcher

 

x2 Vindicator: Siege Shield

 

Mission: Big guns Never tire- 4 Objectives

 

Never played against Necrons before. GH Packs 1 and 2 failed to melta the Monolith turn one, but made up for their failure by tarpitting whoever they got into combat with. He did the same with me when he took control of my Thunderwolfs mind and got the unit stuck in combat for 3 turns. He stayed in cover which kept my GH Pack 1 from having much effect assault him. They got overwatched pretty bad, but they subsequently got a 15 man warrior unit and I think a Lord stuck for the rest of the game. I held the only objective, I would have had more but I moved GH Pack 4 off of the Objective they were on in order to stop the Scarabs from eating my last Vindi. I know Space Marine players generally say no tanks against necrons, and maybe under a different build that would have been true... but the Vindicators and the Razorback were stars in the list. I really like Drop Pods in Objective secured, and even just one HB Razorback is great fire support for a Small Unit of Marines... not to mention they're great for adding mobility and grabbing that last objective. 

[d@n]

I'll be going max plasma ccw power axe in a pod. because that's how real fenrisians clear on objective! You can't argue with 7 plasma shots to the enemy's face the turn you pod in.

[Karack Blackstone]

Pretty well all of my GH's are modeled with CCW's and some even have BG, BP, CCW.

 

I'm more than willing to pay the points for the CCW's, just looking forward to using my units smartly, once I figure out how to combine everything, as I play with an old Logan model.  I'm uncertain about getting the new Logan one, however, apparently I might need to if I want the Champions of Fenris detachment.  That's rather annoying, I think Logan would himself prefer to stay close to his warriors, rather than apart from them in battle.

[Squark]

Vehicles are not bad against necrons, its just they require you to do proper armor saturation (which you really should be doing anyway)

[skeletoro]

I agree that 34 points for a WGPL model with a combo weapon is a bit too expensive to spam. I'd consider it for a 3 melta pod pack.

 

But at that point, 3 TDAWG with combi melta (potentially add 2 models including heavy and/or a pod, depending on stuff) could work better. They would work out very cheap, teleporting (105 points), which could work alright if you were willing to wait till turn 2 given no drop pod assault. Hell, teleport a lone wolf in there too to really disrupt things! And remember to take a locator beacon on any pods you send in ahead of them.

 

And it's not too hard to spare a FA slot for a WGTDA pod if you want one - put all your wolf guard in a separate Logan wing detachment, giving them WS5, and freeing up 3 FA slots for pods.