Revisiting Knight Titans - some questions

[Kilofix]

1. Fluffwise did Knight Titans come before the larger Mechanicum Titans or after or at the same time?

 

2. What are your thoughts today about facing 3 Knight Titans with supporting Troops at the 2K point level?

Myself; previously I thought they'd be a problem. But now, not so much. Unless my list is really skewed and doesn't have any anti-armor (which is rarely the case).

 

3. Are there any Knight DataSlates other than the Spearhead Formation, Obsidian Knight and Gerantius? And, has anyone tried using these?

 

4. Anyone tried using the Knight Cerastus?

 

5. Do we know whats in GW's The Imperial Knight Companion (at a whopping $74US) that isn't already in the Codex? Just more background, heraldry and diagrams?

 

6. Anyone know of 3rd party parts for Knights?

 

 

I been playing 2 Knights at most in large Apoc / Unbound games but lately (amongst my hundred other projects and ideas), I'm getting the itch to paint Knights again as they pretty fun to paint. These are my 2 Inquisition requisition Knights (formerly from Taranis):

[incinerator950]

Knights aren't real Titans. At least they used to not be, they're single pilot versions that do not bear anywhere near the stress that even Warhounds can give in the neural bridge.

 

Anyway, Titans originate from the Age of Strife defending Mars. I haven't read the White Dwarf intro article, nor have I read the Knight codex in a few months. I want one, but I need to land another job. And CTA is a joke for something they could've dataslated for the Chaos dexes.

 

I haven't heard of any other rules or formations.

[jeffersonian000]

Knights aren't real Titans. At least they used to not be, they're single pilot versions that do not bear anywhere near the stress that even Warhounds can give in the neural bridge.

 

Anyway, Titans originate from the Age of Strife defending Mars. I haven't read the White Dwarf intro article, nor have I read the Knight codex in a few months. I want one, but I need to land another job. And CTA is a joke for something they could've dataslated for the Chaos dexes.

 

I haven't heard of any other rules or formations.

Knights have always been Titans, they were always listed as both the smallest Titan class as well as Scout Titans.

 

The oldest Titan designs are the Reaver and the Warhound, both date back into antiquity. Knights may or may not be older, as they date back to the original human desporia, as an STC design found on many sub-light colony ships sent out to claim inhabitable worlds. What we don't is if Reavers and Warhound are pre-desporia or post-desporia. If Pre, they are older than Knights; if Post, Knights are older.

 

The Warlord Titan is a Unification of Terra era design, ordered by the Emperor from Mars to be used as siege engines for taking Hive Cities and crushing other similar war engines on the dried earthen plains. The Emperor class Titans are Crusade era designs, and therefore the most recent class of Titan.

 

The 'newer' FW Knights designs date back to the Heresy at the latest, and are most likely pre-Crusade designs (although I haven't read anything on them yet about their history).

 

As far as the rest of the OP's questions, I'll let others chime in.

 

SJ

Edited August 11, 2014 by jeffersonian000

[AJB2K3]

In some of the older books (epic) it was said that the knights were designed and fielded by the smaller forge worlds who neither had the facilities nor equipment to build and support full titans and were often used as guards for planetary lords leading to the formation of knight households.

[incinerator950]

Uh, when did the Warlord become older than the Emperor classes?

[Battybattybats]

I have the Knight Companion.
It is indeed without any rules at all. Just background, a little more on the heraldry and example colour schemes and photos (which i think are of prototypes actually, considering the lack of studs on the shoulder stubber and one ankle that looks like warped resin instead of plastic). Much of it is background for each house we've already been told about, for each of the Freeblades (though i haven't got around to reading through the freeblades stuff yet) and each knight that they give the scheme of, some of this background i've found inspiring.

For example...

one i particularly liked was where a knight was deployed with Skitarii against the forces of a rogue Magos and his own Skitarii. Only when they got to the Rogue Magos' ship landed on a planet they were attacked by surgically altered Tyranids fighting side by side with the rogue Skitarii! The Rogue Magos had found a way to control a Tyranid swarm. This means i now have a recent canon excuse for mixing my Tyranid army and my Mechanicus army if i wish.

Whether it's worth the money though depends very much on what you want from it. If you like the style of background in the codex the companion is more of the same.

There is one big question that it and the novel Knights of the Imperium raise for me, where are these 'stab-lights' on the model that they keep mentioning?

[CommodusXIII]

2. What are your thoughts today about facing 3 Knight Titans with supporting Troops at the 2K point level?

Myself; previously I thought they'd be a problem. But now, not so much. Unless my list is really skewed and doesn't have any anti-armor (which is rarely the case).

 

I've played two battles with my Knight Household.  Three Knights at 2K points should be relatively balanced - they're hard as nails, but at that point level a forewarned opponent should be able to work in enough firepower to stand a chance.  I highly recommend warning whoever you're fighting in advance, and playing missions with a high emphasis on objectives.  Otherwise, you run a serious risk of being labelled that guy even if you don't necessarily deserve it.

 

 

 

3. Are there any Knight DataSlates other than the Spearhead Formation, Obsidian Knight and Gerantius? And, has anyone tried using these?

 

 

The Spearhead formation is in one of the Apocalypse: Warzone supplements and is not meant for normal 40K.  However, there is an Adamantine Lance formation in Sanctus Reach that is much better, in my opinion.

 

 

6. Anyone know of 3rd party parts for Knights?

 

Not specifically for the Knight yet, no.  Blightwheel Miniatures has some interesting bits, and I've found that parts from the Dreamforge Leviathan kit can be adapted with little work.

[incinerator950]

I have the Knight Companion.

It is indeed without any rules at all. Just background, a little more on the heraldry and example colour schemes and photos (which i think are of prototypes actually, considering the lack of studs on the shoulder stubber and one ankle that looks like warped resin instead of plastic). Much of it is background for each house we've already been told about, for each of the Freeblades (though i haven't got around to reading through the freeblades stuff yet) and each knight that they give the scheme of, some of this background i've found inspiring.

 

For example...

one i particularly liked was where a knight was deployed with Skitarii against the forces of a rogue Magos and his own Skitarii. Only when they got to the Rogue Magos' ship landed on a planet they were attacked by surgically altered Tyranids fighting side by side with the rogue Skitarii! The Rogue Magos had found a way to control a Tyranid swarm. This means i now have a recent canon excuse for mixing my Tyranid army and my Mechanicus army if i wish.

 

Whether it's worth the money though depends very much on what you want from it. If you like the style of background in the codex the companion is more of the same.

 

There is one big question that it and the novel Knights of the Imperium raise for me, where are these 'stab-lights' on the model that they keep mentioning?

My forge a narrative senses have been tingled.

[CommodusXIII]

There is one big question that it and the novel Knights of the Imperium raise for me, where are these 'stab-lights' on the model that they keep mentioning?

 

I'm afraid I don't have either, but I'm intrigued.  Could you give a bit of context?

[Demus Ragnok]

Uh, when did the Warlord become older than the Emperor classes?

 

In the novel Mechanicum when Mars breaks out into civil war one of the Legios deploys an Emperor class. The princeps of the other legios (who was piloting an ancient warlord titan) had never seen one/believed they were just rumor. 

[incinerator950]

So it's another half credible BL retcon?

 

Figures.

[Battybattybats]

 

There is one big question that it and the novel Knights of the Imperium raise for me, where are these 'stab-lights' on the model that they keep mentioning?

 

I'm afraid I don't have either, but I'm intrigued.  Could you give a bit of context?

 

 

In both they describe Knights using stab-lights in dark conditions in order to see. For example providing light underground in unlit tunnel fighting. So they sound like searchlights or the Knight equivalent of a flashlight strapped to a gun.

 

Looking at the miniatures though the only lens like things that would seem to do the job are what i take to be the targeters on the Heavy Stubbers.

[Kilofix]

That just gave me an idea though - I'm going to attach extra searchlights to my Knights.

[jeffersonian000]

So it's another half credible BL retcon?

 

Figures.

No, just BL supporting preexisting 40k background material, dating back to the Space Marine and Titan Legion box sets.

 

SJ

[incinerator950]

Well I just read through AT1 again. You are right, and it has been a while since I read this glorious masterpiece.

 

That being said I cannot add if Knights are on the same time-line as the strife, but the Reaver and Warhound are listed as ancient enough to participate in the Final War.

 

Knights were not added until a later version of Epic. Armageddon?

Edited August 12, 2014 by incinerator950

[Battybattybats]

Well I just read through AT1 again. You are right, and it has been a while since I read this glorious masterpiece.

 

That being said I cannot add if Knights are on the same time-line as the strife, but the Reaver and Warhound are listed as ancient enough to participate in the Final War.

 

Knights were not added until a later version of Epic. Armageddon?

I'm pretty sure Knights were added via White Dwarf to Space Marine/Adeptus Titanicus and then reprinted in a supplement. They were around in metal quite a while and when Epic:Armageddon came out is when the plastic and 2nd-generation metal versions came out.

 

 

I have the Knight Companion.

It is indeed without any rules at all. Just background, a little more on the heraldry and example colour schemes and photos (which i think are of prototypes actually, considering the lack of studs on the shoulder stubber and one ankle that looks like warped resin instead of plastic). Much of it is background for each house we've already been told about, for each of the Freeblades (though i haven't got around to reading through the freeblades stuff yet) and each knight that they give the scheme of, some of this background i've found inspiring.

 

For example...

one i particularly liked was where a knight was deployed with Skitarii against the forces of a rogue Magos and his own Skitarii. Only when they got to the Rogue Magos' ship landed on a planet they were attacked by surgically altered Tyranids fighting side by side with the rogue Skitarii! The Rogue Magos had found a way to control a Tyranid swarm. This means i now have a recent canon excuse for mixing my Tyranid army and my Mechanicus army if i wish.

 

Whether it's worth the money though depends very much on what you want from it. If you like the style of background in the codex the companion is more of the same.

 

There is one big question that it and the novel Knights of the Imperium raise for me, where are these 'stab-lights' on the model that they keep mentioning?

My forge a narrative senses have been tingled.

 

Well if you like that you also might like

the Heart of Rage audio story http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/Heart-of-Rage-mp3.html where some Blood Angels marines are sent into an apparently dead tyranid bioship after a missing Mechanicus team...

and find a Magos has also found a way to control some Tyranids, but this time with the surgery on himself and more doubt as to who is really in charge

[apologist]

Knights have always been Titans, they were always listed as both the smallest Titan class as well as Scout Titans.

 

Not so, though it's a common mistake. Knights have always been explicitly described as similar to, though different from Titans. They first popped up in White Dwarf 126, where it's noted that: 

 

 

Knight suits are similar to Titans in that they are controlled through a direct mind link. Imperial Titans are imprinted with a feral personality, which must be dominated by the Princeps in order to control the machine [...] Human knight suits do not have a permanently imprinted personality. Instead the Knight [pilot] sits in a throne, which is imprinted with aspects of his own personality.

 

Contrast the one-man Knights with true Titans, from Adeptus TItanicus:

 

 

Each Titan is operated by a crew of three to five, all of whom are linked to their machine through mind-impulse units.

 

This follows through to the rules, too, with bits like the following reinforcing the point that the two things are similar, but different. From the same WD126 article:

 

 

Knights do not take part in the repair phase. They cannot repair damage as they lack the complex auto repair systems of Titans

 

 

Knights are moved in the vehicle segment, appropriate to their orders. However, because of the fast reactions of their mind-linked suits, they fire in the appropriate Titan fire phase, not the vehicle fire phase

 

Throughout the article, it was made clear that the Knight Worlds were different from the Forgeworlds – though some were closely affiliated. Similarly, the military forces of the Knight Worlds were often fielded alongisde or under the command of the Titan Legions, but were not the same thing:

 

 

Often, a Knight world would be affiliated to a Titan forgeworld, producing food for it, while the Sacristans would come under the control of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Other Knight worlds were left with a large degree of autonomy, required only to produce food and obey the call to arms when given.

 

 

Thus units of Knights are often fielded by Titan Orders and the Imperial Guard.

 

Knights have never been Titans, from their very introduction; and that's been the case through every version of Epic.

 

+++

 

 

1. Fluffwise did Knights come before the larger Mechanicum Titans or after or at the same time?

Titans are likely to be older. Knights were developed during the Dark Age of Technology. From the same WD126 article:

 

 

During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earrth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity.

The humans mimicked eldar exodite Knights and developed their own.

 

Here's the history of Titans, from Adeptus Titanicus:

 

 

The history of Titans is very ancient indeed. Titans have existed throughout the history of the Imperium and for long before its founding, before even the Age of Strife. Titans were first used during the Dark Age of Technology and the first of the Alien Wars: during that period of time each human colony had at least one Titan Legion, and many had dozens deployed in their defense. During the Final War and Age of Strife these Titan Legions were turned against each other in the savage and destructive wars that tore mankind apart.

So it's a bit inconclusive – both during the DAoT – though I'd be inclined to say Titans are older.

 

 

2. What are your thoughts today about facing 3 Knight Titans with supporting Troops at the 2K point level?

Much like all games, it's more the player that's important than the army. :)

 

Hope that helps. Sorry to bang on about the 'Knights aren't Titans' bit – it's just I've played Epic for a long long time, and every single edition has made it clear that Titans are far more sophisticated than Knights, and the two don't really compare beyond being bipedal war machines. Even today GW seem fairly careful to keep references to Knights and Titans apart – with the single exception of the phrase 'Knight Titan' seemingly being used on the side of the 40k scale Knight box(!) GW trolling us? :P

[Battybattybats]

Hmm if Titans are more sophisticated than Knights, and both stem from before humanities retrograde loss of tech, then logically would it not make sense that the Titans were an advancement upon the Knights and not vice versa?

After Old Night it makes sense that older tech can be more sophisticated than newer tech because the more durable and easier to reproduce stuff has a better chance of surviving the aeons. But during the Dark Age of technology it was still a time of advancement of technology with newer designs evolving from and developed upon older.

[jeffersonian000]

Apologist, all of your points to disprove Knights being Titans only reinforce Knights being Titans. Titans are large piloted robotic warmachines, normally controlled through a direct neural link, wielding massive ordnance weapons, and capable of melee combat (be it somewhat limited). Knight fill each of those points. And to add this one small point: GW calls them Titans.

 

You would literally have to cite a GW publication that states clearly "Knights are not Titans" in order prove your point. The fact that GW has quite clearly printed "Knight-class Titan" and "Knight Titan" proves that Knights are in fact Titans regardless of your personal opinion. Each reference calling Knights "suits" has been from the point of view of the culture using the Knights, while each reference to Knights as "Titans" has been from a meta point of view.

 

Good luck finding a citation to support your view.

 

SJ

[apologist]

Like, for example, this from page 13 of the Codex: Titanicus (background book, essentially) of the 1994 game Titan Legions?

 

The most important innovation that the Tech-Priests brought to the Knight Worlds were the fighting machines called Knights. These machines were one-man versions of a Titan, much smaller and less powerful than a real Titan, but far better suited to the mobile style of warfare prevalent amongst the nobility of the Knight Worlds.

Today these Knights fight along the Titans and form a reserve of troops which can be called up into the Titan Legions when required.

 

My emphasis.

 

To go into this a bit further, from the same book, under the heading 'The Titan Legions':

 

Of all the galaxy's fighting machines, none can match the sheer size and power of a Titan. [...] Inside the Titan's armoured shell countless crew busy themselves with their duties. Some operate the throbbing engines that propel the machine, enabling it to walk over the battlefield. Others direct its potent weapons of destructions, guiding its turrets and aiming its lethal missiles. A Titan is a ponderous battleship of the land. A machine of such a size and complexity [sic]that it is accompanied by infantry and tanks so it can deliver its substantial firepower in the most effective way. [...] To the Tech-priests a Titan is more than a fighting machine, it is an aspect of the Machine God, a holy and worshipful creation of Technology. To serve aboard a Titan is to serve the Machine God in person.

 

Throughout the book, the Titan Legions and Titans are repeatedly and explicitly mentioned as quite separate entities from the Knight Worlds and Knights. Each is under its own heading – both in the background section and the rules – and there are numerous specifics. 

 

Under the 'Battle Titans' subheading, the book includes a general introduction to Titans: 

 

Battle Titans stand between 10 and 25 metres tall. [...] They are protected by up to six void shield generators. The void shield generators are a Battle Titan's first line of defence but they have a ferocious power requirement beyond the capacity of most portable power sources. All Titans overcome this problem by using dangerously volatile plasma reactors[...]Titans are controlled via the use of a mind impulse unit of MIU as they are sometimes know. Mind impulse units read commands directly from the brain-waves of the Titan's bridge crew.

 

This section includes 'Reaver Battle Titan', 'Warlord Battle Titan' and 'Warhound Scout Titan'. Of the latter, the text reads:

 

Warhound Scout Titans are not strictly speaking Battle Titans at all. However, there are very few practical differences between Scout TItans and Battle Titans (save in size and nomenclature) so the Warhound is included here for completeness.

 

Notably, even Scout Titans have a number of crew:

 

The small crews of Warhound Titans are made up of tough and resourceful individuals who are experts in unorthodox tactics.

 

Emperor Titans are under a separate subheading 'Emperor class Titans', where it is noted:

 

Emperor class Titans tower some 25 to 40 metres tall [...] Emperor class Titans employ the same technologies as Battle Titans but on a massive scale, efaturing huge plasma reactors to supply their colossal power requirements.

 

Still under the Titan Legions heading is a rules note:

 

Your Titan force represents part of a Titan Legion on campaign. The army itself may include Titans, Knights and Tech-guard, plus Space marines, Imperial Guard and Squats as allied contingents

Note the separation of Titans and Knights.

 

There is then a section of Titan datacards, followed by a whole new heading of 'Knights'. Here, Knights are described as:

 

warrior knights in their armoured suits fight to keep them at bay[...]Year-long the Knights battle and patrol until the great ships arrive from the forge world, bringing new Knight suits.

 

Note repeated – out of universe – references to 'suits'.

Again, under the heading 'Choosing the Knight Army', a distinction is drawn between Knights and Titans.

 

The Knight Paladin colour text includes:

The Knight Paladin is the archetypal Knight suit

 

The Knight Crusader colour text:

 

The heaviest type of Knights made by the forge worlds are the Crusader and the Castellan. Although slower than the other Knights[...] providing heavy weapon cover for the other Knight units[...]

 

In fact, the only references to Titans in this section are in exceptions – the Crusader has:

 

[a]shoulder-mouted Quake cannon, a modified Titan weapon

...implying it can't have a proper Titan weapon.

 

+++

 

Titan Legions does clarify some of the date questions:

 

The Warlord Battle Titan has always been the workhorse of the the Titan Legions, indeed its design pre-dates the Imperium itself. Some Warlords in the Legions have been in service since the Dark Age of Technology and many more date from the Age of Strife.

 

The Reaver seems to have been designed at approximately the same time as the Warhound. It differs considerably from older designs, such as the Warlord Battle Titan.

 

...and with regard to the 'Titans or Knights first?' question; Titans were first. 

 

The most important innovation that the tech-priests brought to the Knight Worlds were the fighting machines also called Knights. These machines were one-man versions of a Titan, much smaller and less powerful than a real Titan.

That last quote (my emphases) also nicely sums up my argument that Knights aren't Titans. 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Apologist

[jeffersonian000]

You proved my argument with both your first and last quotes:

 

These machines were one-man versions of Titans.

I rest my case.

 

SJ

[apologist]

In that case, I think we'll have to disagree. :)

[CommodusXIII]

The crux of the argument seems to place 40K lore on one side, and "if it walks like a Titan and talks like a Titan, it's a Titan" on the other.  I take a middle ground.  Knights aren't Titans, but are closely related.  Smaller cousins, if you will.  The defining characteristic of a Titan, not just on the battlefield but in the myriad of backstory and fluff, is not just the size and firepower.  It's that 3-5 crewmen have to work together to control it.  It's that teamwork that drives works such as Titanicus and the older Titan graphic novels.

 

Another way of looking at it is organization.  Titans are under the umbrella of the Collegia Titanicus, itself under the Adeptus Mechanicus.  Knights form independent Households and, while some have stronger ties to the Mechanicus than others, are largely considered independent entities both from each other and from the other Adeptus within the Imperium.  The two organizations - the Collegia Titanicus on one side, and the assortment of Knight Households on the other - have vastly different traditions and approaches.

 

It doesn't help that the fluff is constantly changing.  Originally, Knights were created by human colonists on worlds isolated during the Age of Darkness.  They were counters both to the predators of these feral worlds and to the Knights of the Eldar Exodites they competed with.  The Eldar Knights became the Wraithknights we know today.  The Imperial Knights have been retconned slightly to remove the Eldar history, and are now said to have been shipped with the colonists to these worlds rather than being designed and built on them.  This makes a bit more sense, as it accounts for why they all look relatively similar.  A dozen worlds developing technology independently would yield much more varied results.

 

As to GW's branding on the box:  Nowhere in Codex: Imperial Knights, the Imperal Knight Companion, the 7th Edition Rulebook or any of the supporting Black Library books is a Knight referred to as a Titan.  I'd say that this is just their attempt at consolidating their hold on the Knight IP - "Knight Titan" is easier to trademark than "Knight", much like "Astra Militarum" and "Imperial Guard".  Hell, the first Google return for Imperial Knight is a Star Wars reference.  That option is already shot.

 

TL;DR:  Historically, Knights are not Titans.  Recently, there's been confusion because of the box description which may just be IP-related shenanigan.  Boys will always cry over toys.

[apologist]

An excellent summary, and one with which I agree completely. :)

[Battybattybats]

 

 

Another way of looking at it is organization.  Titans are under the umbrella of the Collegia Titanicus, itself under the Adeptus Mechanicus.  Knights form independent Households and, while some have stronger ties to the Mechanicus than others, are largely considered independent entities both from each other and from the other Adeptus within the Imperium.  The two organizations - the Collegia Titanicus on one side, and the assortment of Knight Households on the other - have vastly different traditions and approaches.

Interesting notion. As the Knight Companion mentions some Knights actually joining Titan Legions temporarily or permanently and has one example Knight in their painted examples with a Titan Legion emblem on one rear-half shoulder (the Cockatrices) then through the Organisation perspective you could have a Knight-titan, so long as the Knight is part of a titan legion.