Alpha Legion Representation

[Custodian Athiair]

I was thinking last night, not being able to sleep and all, and I realised that while the Forge World representation of the Alpha Legion and their fighting style is awesome, cool and rather brutal. In the Black Library books they're portrayed as avoiders. What I mean is they always seem to want to avoid large scale confrontation and much prefer retreating.

 

While yes this display of methodology is part of their warfare tactics, I really want to see a book which shows the Alpha Legion as they can be. You know sabotage, deceit and dummy-moves, used in perfect harmony to bring the enemy to the battle field weakened and in the perfect state to be utterly annihilated by every possible facet of combat: assault, heavy weapon, tanks, air support, flanking etc. Yet we never see this, the closest we came was in Scars and then it was only the threat of it and it was a space battle.

 

Anyone else at there feel my frustration too?

[Perrin]

Do we really see them retreat that often? Sometimes their plans involve them avoiding pitched battles in order to fulfil other objectives but I wouldn't say they retreat. I'd even go so far as to say that retreating is more a tactic of the Night Lords, or at least the 40k Night Lords. Haven't seen much of them in full battle in 30k but they do retreat at the end of the Thramas Crusde.

 

It would be nice to see the Alpha Legion in a proper Legion battle though. They have a few short stories coming up soon so maybe you'll get your wish.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Tbh, I'm not a fan of how BL has handled the AL in the novels. I really liked Legion when it dropped, but time as distinctly soured my opinion of it (especially the Legion's reason for turning traitor). Then I hear about things like Deliverance Lost, which sounds like a true abomination of a book.

 

FW on the other hand, have the AL portrayed as something resembling a Space Marine Legion, rather than a bunch of Sues calling themselves Alpharius from the Shadows.

[Balthamal]

The Fall of Paramar in Extermination does a pretty fine job of showing the Alphas be the Legion they're supposed to be. Just because they find plenty of time (and enjoyment) in being covert and running rings around their enemies, when push comes to shove, they're more than capable of throwing down. The independence of operation is certainly an asset but there's also unparalleled overarching unity throughout a particular theater. It's safe to say that if I hadn't already committed myself to the VIII Legion before reading any of the FW books I'd be polishing up a sizable force of serpents as we speak.  

 

The main problem with the Alphas, I feel at least, in the novels, is that they're just too damn convenient. They're a wonderful "kop out" option. Something improbable needs to happen? Well the Alphas are handy and known for pulling crazy stunts, they'll do nicely. Woah woah woah we need X to be struck down but can't use Y because there's a book describing how Y is incapable of doing said job? Summon forth the Hydra! Case in point, them infiltrating a WE ship and allowing the Raven Guard to escape Istvaan. I just found it a tad improbable.

 

As far as Deliverance Lost is concerned, I feel the main problem with it was the writing more than the events it was portraying. I actually thought the premise was solid: it's bordering on stupidity that the traitors would sit back and watch Corax build his merry way to a hundred thousand Legionnaires again before they even reach Terra. It stands to reason that the Alpha Legion would have been on the case trying to derail it.I just thought that the writing itself was a let down. Something I also felt whilst reading Gav's The Lion. That said however what I've read of his Unforgiven trilogy so far is pretty decent.

[Leif Bearclaw]

You make some good points about Deliverance Lost, however I would offer a counter point (plus my own opinions) about the premise.

 

How do the Traitors find out that Corax is trying to accelerate his Legion's recovery? It doesn't sounds too implausible that they'd be tempted to write off the RG after almost annihilating them at Istvaan. While you're right that they would let Corax's work be concluded without attempted disruption once they knew about it, but if they only discover the work's existence thanks to Alpha Legion shenanigans then that's precisely the sort of AL stuff I don't like in the BL books. Of course if instead they go 'daemons told them', then that's another shade of BS author fiat imo.

 

Additionally, Deliverance Lost undermines the tragedy of Corax's story as far as I'm concerned. Whereas before we had a Primarch, his Legion having 'failed' at the time they were needed most, digging into mysteries he perhaps should've let lie, degrading his gene-seed, to the point where the long term viability of his line is threatened, as well as crippling however many thousand recruits so that the Imperium can be defended in its hour of need. Now we have a Primarch given the best tech to achieve his goal, who only fails because 'lol Alpha Legion'. The result is a story that loses both its tragedy and power imo.

[Balthamal]

In hindsight (i use that term although strictly speaking it's revealed at the end of the novel) that

one of Corax's 3 commanders is actually an Alpha Legion agent

so that would at least explain how they'd know. In terms of them acting on it so quickly? I suppose it's only due to Omegon taking charge of it himself that gets the job done but again I get your point. It feels tenuous but for this particular case, it's more plausible than implausible. I think only the Alpha Legion would still count the Raven Guard as a threat, more militaristic Primarch's like Horus/Perturabo/Angron would have put them out of thought given how thoroughly they'd been gutted which imo is a good thing, it adds a little bit to them.

 

I completely agree with the tragedy element. I think a lot was taken away from Corax and his story by changing that around. It would certainly pile on a lot of guilt and angst that would motivate him to run off after the Scouring.

 

On the hand that particular tragedy is replaced by the tragedy of him having the secrets of the Emperor, and still not being able to do enough. He doesn't understand why it isn't working as intended and in the end he's forced to destroy it (or at least what he thinks it is) robbing the Imperium of something it would desperately need in the aftermath of the Heresy. I think that particular brand of tragedy is just as powerful but is badly used when you consider what was already in place and got removed

[Valkyrion]

The Alpha Legion are the deus ex machina of 30k, probably because the other two main DEM's, Tzeentch and the Inquisition, aren't around yet.

 

That said, they are my favourite 30k Legion. I'm struggling to recall a source, but wasn't the Drop Site Massacre an Alpha Legion tactic?

 

I think BL are doing a reasonable job of them and they have to make them different to the rest. If an objective has to be met then the World Eaters will keep attacking until everyone is dead, claiming the objective by default. The Imperial Fists will build a big wall to shoot over until the enemy is dead, the Night Lords will flay children alive and terrify the enemy into submission, whilst the Alpha Legion will analyse it, analyse it again, analyse it a third time, what's that over there? Objective secured. They just do what is necessary and little else.

 

They must be a tricky Legion to write about because they have to be analytical without being Ultramarines, sneaky without being Raven Guard, cold without being Dark Angels, independent without being White Scars etc.

 

If they are responsible for the Drop Site Massacre then I'd love to read a short story about that - how they came up with the idea, the reaction of the other primarchs/marines, to something so cold and calculated against 'friends'.

[Leif Bearclaw]

In hindsight (i use that term although strictly speaking it's revealed at the end of the novel) that

one of Corax's 3 commanders is actually an Alpha Legion agent

so that would at least explain how they'd know. In terms of them acting on it so quickly? I suppose it's only due to Omegon taking charge of it himself that gets the job done but again I get your point. It feels tenuous but for this particular case, it's more plausible than implausible. I think only the Alpha Legion would still count the Raven Guard as a threat, more militaristic Primarch's like Horus/Perturabo/Angron would have put them out of thought given how thoroughly they'd been gutted which imo is a good thing, it adds a little bit to them.

 

I completely agree with the tragedy element. I think a lot was taken away from Corax and his story by changing that around. It would certainly pile on a lot of guilt and angst that would motivate him to run off after the Scouring.

 

On the hand that particular tragedy is replaced by the tragedy of him having the secrets of the Emperor, and still not being able to do enough. He doesn't understand why it isn't working as intended and in the end he's forced to destroy it (or at least what he thinks it is) robbing the Imperium of something it would desperately need in the aftermath of the Heresy. I think that particular brand of tragedy is just as powerful but is badly used when you consider what was already in place and got removed

I think that bit in the spoiler sums up pretty well why the 30k AL get flak for being deus ex machinas, mary sues and 'never losing'. I didn't know that, I knew about the infiltration, but so high up the chain of command? How did Thorpe's editor not throw that back in his face?

 

Again you make good points about the new tragedy. But does that mean that the RG don't even realise the AL screwed up Corax's work? If that's the case then it's another layer of BS imo. On the other hand, if they knew about the sabotage, it leaves Corax channelling every bad emo stereotype when he mopes around deliverance pre disapparence, whereas an epic revenge hunt (essentially a more personal Scouring extension) seems more worthy of a Primarch's stature in such a circumstance.

[TrafficCustodes]

I will defend 'Deliverance Lost' to the death. It's not a perfect book, but I personally see it as fine, far from the unending river of awfulness that many seem to portray it as.

 

I felt that the AL infiltration of the Raven Guard was explained in depth in the book. 

 

 

In the chaos of the dropsite massacre, it was easy for AL operatives to isolate recent casualties from the RG Legion and perform facial reconstruction / gene implantation to 'copy' those Raven Guard's characteristics on to Alpha Legion soldiers. A lot of volunteers prepared for this specific task were on hand, so varying height, skin tone, etc would not have been a factor. Once that's done, hey, Corax didn't escape the planet for 400 days so there was plenty of time for the fake RG to join up with their 'comrades'. Exact numbers are never confirmed, but it's stated that a lot of infiltrators were placed, so one of them being high on the chain of command doesn't seem too far-fetched to me, since the AL would have made an effort to find the most high-level Raven Guard possible. (I personally find it harder to believe that there were no Salamanders or Iron Hands present in Corax's survivor force.)

If you're asking why the Space Marines weren't all individually tested to see whether they were who they said they were when they got back to Deliverance... well, there's no real explanation, apart from the fact that there were 3,000 Legionary survivors and the Raven Guard's resources are fairly limited at this time. But why WOULD that happen? No real suspicion is raised by the infiltrators' conduct, and the Raven Guard's exhausted, devastated state left most of them acting 'strangely'.

 

You seem to be assuming it's a case of the BL cliche of "no editorial guidance/obvious plot holes", but the fault with this was that it was overexplained, if anything.

And I don't disagree that the old fluff of Corax's failure is better in theory, but I don't hate the new version myself; this will just come down to personal taste.

As bad as you may think this explanation is, in the end you won't be able to fully judge the book until you read it yourself. But you will probably hate it. Averages aren't on my side.

 

 

 

In the end, I agree with the OP, though. The Alpha Legion's portrayal in the Horus Heresy has been frustrating. I'm one of the 'Legion' groupies; I can see why some people have soured on the book as the series goes on, but I still think it's one of the best HH novels. I think one of the key points is that, for many of us whose minds were blown by 'Legion', is that as soon as a story has an Alpha Legion viewpoint character, we already feel it's a failure. Unless you're REALLY throwing us some next-level craziness, don't let us inside the Alphas' heads. The AL's ultimate endgame should be shrouded in mystery, and even their minute-to-minute plans shouldn't be something we're privy to. They don't have to be sneaking about, or doing infiltration BS; have them orbital-assault in their thousands and storm the walls of a huge fortress, bolters blazing, if you want. Just make them distant and unknowable and capable of subtlety. That's why I felt that 'Tallarn: Executioner' was one of the best AL portrayals since 'Legion'. That's why, despite the high quality of the writing, I felt slightly disappointed by 'The Serpent Beneath'. That's why the Forge World background is great, though (by necessity) a little vague.

 

And while it's hard to write an unreliable 'viewpoint character' well, it's very unrewarding to read AL characters who are 'normal'. I defend it, but 'Deliverance Lost' is a case in point. For us to know that an AL deep cover operative gets all emotional and indignant when the Raven Guard start trash-talking his Legion, that kind of goes against their icy, logical portrayal in 'Legion'. And when we're able to get inside Omegon and Alpharius' head(s) and get some of their inner thought processes... well, WHATEVER they're thinking seems a bit mundane, because we AL fans think those guys should think in processes beyond mortal comprehension.

 

So, as with many frustrating strands of the Horus Heresy, I personally just want them to give it to Dan Abnett. A Dan-penned Alpha Legion book could be incredibly good, though he might have some problems tying together the inconsistent strands of AL portrayal over the course of the series.

[Xin Ceithan]

Writing a "good" Alpha Legion story is probably one of the most challenging aspects available to a writer.

For large scale engagements, I'd say FW has hit the tone pretty well by describing the events more in a documentary style than a novel approach. For a novel, I'd say a single volume would be too hasty to really convey the scope of AL operations. I could perfectly see, say, a trilogy here: let's call them

" Infection" in which AL measures up the target, begins gathering forces and early infiltration, maybe make a few local contacts. meet local adversaries.

" Incubation" where AL sets up multiple vectors, local support, smoke screens, reactions to counter intelligence / counter insurgency , a few diversions and fall guys

"Malady" which brings together all false and true vectors and the AL working on an all out war footing

 

Complications:

Convey the brilliance and tactical and strategic foresight and adaptability of the transhuman intellects at work - create adequately challenging opponents and situations to keep story interesting without heavy handed railroading

avoid because they rule and deus ex machina solutions

Avoid showing ruthlessness only by having AL win simply by sacrificing agents and forces at work

Build relatable characters while upkeeping the mysteries to keep readers second guessing on key issues (Primarch Origins, loyalities, etc)

 

It's what makes LEGION still my top AL novel - you get to see what the AL does different than other legions, you have characters being shown some hints about their operations and teases at the further mysteries. And the whole cabal thingy is still not giving you the dirt on why the primarchs (if ;) ) go along with Horus. Smoke, mirrors, truths,half truths ...many many heads while the hydra remains beneath the surface

[Kol Saresk]

It would've been easy to infiltrate during the Massacre, yes. That's not people's primary problem. The problem is that the Alpha Legion should have been found out ao many times and the only reason they weren't was because "of the grace of Thorpe".

 

Even James Bond has had more realistic infliltrations.

[Wade Garrett]

Deliverance Lost.

 

DELIVERANCE LOST.

 

My nemesis!

 

What was so bad about Deliverance Lost, you ask? Let me count the ways!

 

THE IDIOT PREMISE:

After Isstvan 5, Corax goes back to Terra and asks the Emperor if he happens to have a super secret method for making Astartes who will be faster, stronger, and reach combat viability even faster just lying around somewhere.

 

And wouldn't you know it, the Emperor does!

 

Question for the class:

Why was the Emperor just sitting on this super secret method instead of using it to make Astartes for his Great Crusade?

 

Answer: The Emperor is an idiot.

 

So, Corax has digs this gene-tech, which could turn the tide of the Heresy, out of the magical labyrinth where the Emperor was hiding it, and he takes it off the most fortified world in the Imperium out into the burning galaxy.

 

Question:

Why not share this tech with the unquestionably loyal Emperor's Praetorian Rogal Dorn? He's right there on Terra, and boosting the size of the VII Legion (which suffered its own losses in that whole Retribution Fleet debacle) seems like it could...

 

Answer:

Corax is an idiot.

 

THE :cuss ING ALPHA LEGION

 

Meanwhile, we learn that Corax's entire trip to Terra was in fact a cunning ruse by the Alpha Legion. Their retarded brilliant plan is to disguise a bunch of XX Astartes as XIX (bear in mind, the Raven Guard gene seed is one of the most unique of all the Legions, if these guys take one medical exam they're screwed) and steal the Idiot Plot Macguffin gene-tech. Bear in mind that the Alphas have invested so much in this plot that they sabotaged the World Eaters pursuit of the Ravens on Isstvan V so Corax and his Legion would escape and go pick up the secret gene tech that supposedly only the Emperor knows about.

 

And of course, the plan works perfectly. The Ravens never suspect a thing until it's too late. If you ever want to know who to rail against for the Alpha's transformation from sneaky terrorist/guerilla Astartes into Omniscient Perfect Disguise Mission Impossible Marines who can infiltrate everything, that would be Mr. Thorpe.

 

OH, YOU LIKE THE INDEX ASTARTES LORE? WELL, :cuss YOU.

 

All of the above might be forgivable if it was a case of an author being shackled to old lore and trying to make the best of it. But it isn't. All of it:

 

Corax returning to Terra, the Omnipresent, Omniscient Alpha Legion...all of it is purely a product of Gav Thorpe's fevered imagination.

 

Index Astartes: Raven Guard told us that after Isstvan V, a vengeful Corax turned to forbidden cloning techniques to rebuild his Legion. But these unproven techniques created monsters, which the Raven Lord led against the Traitor Legions until the end of the Heresy. Overcome with guilt, Corax euthanized his creations and then descended into the Eye of Terror, whispering "Nevermore".

 

Explain to me how the above needed to be replaced with "After clearing everything with the Emperor, Corax used gene-tech to rebuild his Legion and everything was hunky-dory until SUDDENLY THE ALPHA LEGION!"

 

I've read some bad 40k novels, both the regular variety and in the Heresy series. But so far (knocks on wood) only Deliverance Lost was so GODAWFUL that the day I finished it was also the day I took it to a second hand bookshop and traded it for two David Gemmell paperbacks, because I couldn't SLEEP knowing it was on my bookshelf, seeping its contaminants on the rest of my library.

 

TL, DR:

Deliverance Lost is bollocks, Gav Thorpe will not be on my Christmas card list anytime soon.

[TrafficCustodes]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I see what you mean, but I feel that there were extenuating circumstances for the Raven Guard's apparent blindness, chief among them being that there was apparently no precedent for widespread infiltration of one Legion by another, so why would they look for it specifically? Furthermore, that the RG were a shattered Legion facing a whole host of obstacles, with a Primarch whose mind was very clearly preoccupied with issues other than the behaviour of his individual soldiers (and, in the end, he managed to catch them out anyway).

I guess also it depends on our individual readings a lot. For example, when one of the AL infiltrators accidentally uses an Alpha Legion CQC move when training, and his sergeant calls him out on it, he says he saw one of the Traitors use it on Isstvan to kill a Loyalist; it becomes a lesson of how the RG must adapt and use their enemy's techniques against them if they're going to survive. When I read that, it makes me like the Raven Guard more for their nobility and positive attitude, and also respect the AL operative for extricating himself from a potentially fatal situation. Whereas some people might read it and just go !!!!! That's awful!" Both reactions are valid. I just don't think that everyone finishes it and is instantly full of burning hatred for Thorpe and all his works.

[Fire Golem]

I've tried to read Deliverance Lost about three times now and can never get past about a quarter of the way through. Shame cos the RG and AL are two of my faves.

[Kol Saresk]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I see what you mean, but I feel that there were extenuating circumstances for the Raven Guard's apparent blindness, chief among them being that there was apparently no precedent for widespread infiltration of one Legion by another, so why would they look for it specifically? Furthermore, that the RG were a shattered Legion facing a whole host of obstacles, with a Primarch whose mind was very clearly preoccupied with issues other than the behaviour of his individual soldiers (and, in the end, he managed to catch them out anyway).

 

I guess also it depends on our individual readings a lot. For example, when one of the AL infiltrators accidentally uses an Alpha Legion CQC move when training, and his sergeant calls him out on it, he says he saw one of the Traitors use it on Isstvan to kill a Loyalist; it becomes a lesson of how the RG must adapt and use their enemy's techniques against them if they're going to survive. When I read that, it makes me like the Raven Guard more for their nobility and positive attitude, and also respect the AL operative for extricating himself from a potentially fatal situation. Whereas some people might read it and just go "*********!!!!! That's awful!" Both reactions are valid. I just don't think that everyone finishes it and is instantly full of burning hatred for Thorpe and all his works.

Eh, "no precedent" is a poor explanation for a supposedly Lycaean Raven Guard going "Oh look, its the Phalanx!" and Corax going "You've never seen the Phalanx" only to be responded with "Um, yeah. You're right. I took a guess." not setting off any bells in the only Primarch who was able to recognize Chaos altars on Istvaan V. It is also a poor explanation when a supposedly Lycaean Raven Guard goes "Where are the defenses?" and Corax going "Umm, didn't I teach you guys to think outside the box?" to be responde with "Umm, of course you did. That's why I was testing you sir Primarch."

 

Not to mention the "Where did you learn that move?" "I think I saw it on Istvaan V." "Good job, you've taken to ot like a natural. Everyone else, learn that move as well as this guy who has obviously been practicing it."

 

Its not the lack of testing. Its the literal lack of "Wait a minute, that is some downright suspicious behavior."

 

I've seen friends before and after deployment. There are changes. Certain habits develop. But the person is still essentially the same.

 

These Alpha Legionnaires looked like bad high school students reading a script and relying on "No Student Left Behind" in order to not fail. In-universe, we can see the alarm bells going off. But then the charcters choose to ignore them for no reason other than "the plot must go on".

[TrafficCustodes]

Wow, Wade. I don't think even a 'Deliverance Lost' defender like me is going to scale that wall of hate. I respect your opinion and you've obviously put a lot of thought into the flaws of the book - your points are well-argued.

 

I'd still like to point out a few things though.

 

So, Corax has digs this gene-tech, which could turn the tide of the Heresy, out of the magical labyrinth where the Emperor was hiding it, and he takes it off the most fortified world in the Imperium out into the burning galaxy. But he does swear to destroy it if there's even the slightest prospect of it being captured by the Traitors.

 

Index Astartes: Raven Guard told us that after Isstvan V, a vengeful Corax turned to forbidden cloning techniques to rebuild his Legion. But these unproven techniques created monsters, which the Raven Lord led against the Traitor Legions until the end of the Heresy. Overcome with guilt, Corax euthanized his creations and then descended into the Eye of Terror, whispering "Nevermore".

Explain to me how the above needed to be replaced with "After clearing everything with the Emperor, Corax used gene-tech to rebuild his Legion and everything was hunky-dory until SUDDENLY THE ALPHA LEGION!" The Index Astartes articles are an account of 30K from a 40K perspective. They are a combination of myth, truth, half-truth, misunderstood historical record and outright lies. Just suppose for a moment that 'Deliverance Lost' is "the truth" of what happened. To Corax, a lot of the Index Astartes stuff is still true. The 'SUDDENLY THE ALPHA LEGION' bit is something he can't be sure is responsible for the creation of the monsters. And it's clear from 'DL' and subsequent Raven Guard novellas that Corax is still overcome with guilt for his part in making the mutant Legionaries, and the euthanising of his creations seems like a likely ending to this story arc. As for the 'forbidden cloning techniques', I feel that the 'official line' of the Imperium would be to throw a long-missing, possibly dead Primarch under the bus as a rogue agent, rather than implying the beloved God-Emperor might have used technology to create his holy Sons and Angels which was also capable of creating horrible mutant beasts.

 

Meanwhile, we learn that Corax's entire trip to Terra was in fact a cunning ruse by the Alpha Legion. Their retarded brilliant plan is to disguise a bunch of XX Astartes as XIX (bear in mind, the Raven Guard gene seed is one of the most unique of all the Legions, if these guys take one medical exam they're screwed) and steal the Idiot Plot Macguffin gene-tech. Bear in mind that the Alphas have invested so much in this plot that they sabotaged the World Eaters pursuit of the Ravens on Isstvan V so Corax and his Legion would escape and go pick up the secret gene tech that supposedly only the Emperor knows about. That's not entirely true though the AL goal is arguably more silly. They suspected Corax would be given the means to quickly rebuild his Legion by the Emperor, but stealing this was just to be the prelude to a sudden, overwhelming strike against the Raven Guard by the Alpha Legion, with the objective being the RG's complete and swift destruction. AL Legionaries would then assume the identity of the entire RG Legion, without the knowledge of the Traitors OR Loyalists. A ridiculous plan, but if the AL are serious about it, I'd say it's worth killing some World Eaters for. Omegon is shocked to learn that Corax picked up the Primarch gene-code, so the hope that he can steal it is just a cheeky bonus.

 

Admittedly, my points are pretty weak counter-arguments. Your points about the Emperor's use of the Primarch gene-tech (why save it for Corax? why not give it to Rogal Dorn?) are impossible to counter, I admit there is a big plot hole there. But there are some contradictions to your criticisms in the book.

[TrafficCustodes]

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I see what you mean, but I feel that there were extenuating circumstances for the Raven Guard's apparent blindness, chief among them being that there was apparently no precedent for widespread infiltration of one Legion by another, so why would they look for it specifically? Furthermore, that the RG were a shattered Legion facing a whole host of obstacles, with a Primarch whose mind was very clearly preoccupied with issues other than the behaviour of his individual soldiers (and, in the end, he managed to catch them out anyway).

 

I guess also it depends on our individual readings a lot. For example, when one of the AL infiltrators accidentally uses an Alpha Legion CQC move when training, and his sergeant calls him out on it, he says he saw one of the Traitors use it on Isstvan to kill a Loyalist; it becomes a lesson of how the RG must adapt and use their enemy's techniques against them if they're going to survive. When I read that, it makes me like the Raven Guard more for their nobility and positive attitude, and also respect the AL operative for extricating himself from a potentially fatal situation. Whereas some people might read it and just go "*********!!!!! That's awful!" Both reactions are valid. I just don't think that everyone finishes it and is instantly full of burning hatred for Thorpe and all his works.

Eh, "no precedent" is a poor explanation for a supposedly Lycaean Raven Guard going "Oh look, its the Phalanx!" and Corax going "You've never seen the Phalanx" only to be responded with "Um, yeah. You're right. I took a guess." not setting off any bells in the only Primarch who was able to recognize Chaos altars on Istvaan V. It is also a poor explanation when a supposedly Lycaean Raven Guard goes "Where are the defenses?" and Corax going "Umm, didn't I teach you guys to think outside the box?" to be responde with "Umm, of course you did. That's why I was testing you sir Primarch."

 

Not to mention the "Where did you learn that move?" "I think I saw it on Istvaan V." "Good job, you've taken to ot like a natural. Everyone else, learn that move as well as this guy who has obviously been practicing it."

 

Its not the lack of testing. Its the literal lack of "Wait a minute, that is some downright suspicious behavior."

 

I've seen friends before and after deployment. There are changes. Certain habits develop. But the person is still essentially the same.

 

These Alpha Legionnaires looked like bad high school students reading a script and relying on "No Student Left Behind" in order to not fail. In-universe, we can see the alarm bells going off. But then the charcters choose to ignore them for no reason other than "the plot must go on".

 

As I said before, agree to disagree. I remain unconvinced by your arguments, as you clearly remain unconvinced by mine.

 

I think we can both agree that it would be best if Gav stays away from the Alpha Legion in future works, though.

[Lay]

I was thinking last night, not being able to sleep and all, and I realised that while the Forge World representation of the Alpha Legion and their fighting style is awesome, cool and rather brutal. In the Black Library books they're portrayed as avoiders. What I mean is they always seem to want to avoid large scale confrontation and much prefer retreating.

Well, the hydra represents the AL's habit to strike from multiple directions at once. It should be a lot more common that they use infiltration and other dirty tricks as an extension of their capabilities as Space Marines, rather than a substitute.

FW certainly got that right.

 

And while it's hard to write an unreliable 'viewpoint character' well, it's very unrewarding to read AL characters who are 'normal'. I defend it, but 'Deliverance Lost' is a case in point. For us to know that an AL deep cover operative gets all emotional and indignant when the Raven Guard start trash-talking his Legion, that kind of goes against their icy, logical portrayal in 'Legion'. And when we're able to get inside Omegon and Alpharius' head(s) and get some of their inner thought processes... well, WHATEVER they're thinking seems a bit mundane, because we AL fans think those guys should think in processes beyond mortal comprehension.

I'm not a fan of the AL's constant portrayal as an unknowable outside force. It works in "Legion" as an introduction to the AL, but it gets stale afterwards.

 

In fact, among the few moments in Deliverance Lost I enjoyed were those where Alpha Legionnaires were struggling to cover their tracks.

[Xin Ceithan]

 

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I see what you mean, but I feel that there were extenuating circumstances for the Raven Guard's apparent blindness, chief among them being that there was apparently no precedent for widespread infiltration of one Legion by another, so why would they look for it specifically? Furthermore, that the RG were a shattered Legion facing a whole host of obstacles, with a Primarch whose mind was very clearly preoccupied with issues other than the behaviour of his individual soldiers (and, in the end, he managed to catch them out anyway).

 

I guess also it depends on our individual readings a lot. For example, when one of the AL infiltrators accidentally uses an Alpha Legion CQC move when training, and his sergeant calls him out on it, he says he saw one of the Traitors use it on Isstvan to kill a Loyalist; it becomes a lesson of how the RG must adapt and use their enemy's techniques against them if they're going to survive. When I read that, it makes me like the Raven Guard more for their nobility and positive attitude, and also respect the AL operative for extricating himself from a potentially fatal situation. Whereas some people might read it and just go "*********!!!!! That's awful!" Both reactions are valid. I just don't think that everyone finishes it and is instantly full of burning hatred for Thorpe and all his works.

Eh, "no precedent" is a poor explanation for a supposedly Lycaean Raven Guard going "Oh look, its the Phalanx!" and Corax going "You've never seen the Phalanx" only to be responded with "Um, yeah. You're right. I took a guess." not setting off any bells in the only Primarch who was able to recognize Chaos altars on Istvaan V. It is also a poor explanation when a supposedly Lycaean Raven Guard goes "Where are the defenses?" and Corax going "Umm, didn't I teach you guys to think outside the box?" to be responde with "Umm, of course you did. That's why I was testing you sir Primarch."

 

Not to mention the "Where did you learn that move?" "I think I saw it on Istvaan V." "Good job, you've taken to ot like a natural. Everyone else, learn that move as well as this guy who has obviously been practicing it."

 

Its not the lack of testing. Its the literal lack of "Wait a minute, that is some downright suspicious behavior."

 

I've seen friends before and after deployment. There are changes. Certain habits develop. But the person is still essentially the same.

 

These Alpha Legionnaires looked like bad high school students reading a script and relying on "No Student Left Behind" in order to not fail. In-universe, we can see the alarm bells going off. But then the charcters choose to ignore them for no reason other than "the plot must go on".

 

As I said before, agree to disagree. I remain unconvinced by your arguments, as you clearly remain unconvinced by mine.

 

I think we can both agree that it would be best if Gav stays away from the Alpha Legion in future works, though.

 

Yes, please

[TrafficCustodes]

I'm not a fan of the AL's constant portrayal as an unknowable outside force. It works in "Legion" as an introduction to the AL, but it gets stale afterwards.

 

In fact, among the few moments in Deliverance Lost I enjoyed were those where Alpha Legionnaires were struggling to cover their tracks.

 

I feel like 'Legion' is the only place they're portrayed that way.

 

I mean, in 'Deliverance Lost', we get a lot of their motivations and internal monologues and feelings. We even get glimpses into their Primarchs' heads.

 

In 'The Serpent Beneath', all the characters are Alpha Legion and we get to see a lot of the Legion's inner workings.

 

Maybe I'm blanking, but I can't think of any other novels or short stories where they play a central role.

 

I feel the closest to the 'Legion' portrayal are the brief cameos in 'Tallarn: Executioner' and 'Scars', where their actions are quite mysterious and open to a fair few possible interpretations. But those are brief cameos. And they're barely there in 'Hunter's Moon' or 'The Divine Word'.

 

But you are obviously also an Alpha Legion fan - so there are clearly different feelings on how BL are showing the Legion.

[Relict]

When it comes to the Alpha Legion, Legion and the account of the the Battle of Paramar V show two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

 

Legion showcased the shadowed, unknowable side of the Alpha Legion - the network of agents, the mysteriousness even before the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, and the clever strategies they used (they outwitted a friggin' perpetual and the Cabal, for Khorne's sake). 

 

The Battle of Paramar V certainly includes elements of trademark Alpha Legion wetwork - the book makes mention of "Spartoi operatives" infiltrating the Loyalist defenses before the battle commenced, bacteriological contaminant being introduced into the prison colony's water supply and primed for timed release, and "Alpharius" boarding the Mechanicum station under the guise of an inspection before decapitating the Loyalist leadership found there. 

 

But they aren't the main focus of the account. The account focuses on showing the warmaking capabilities of the Alpha Legion - when wetwork has done its job and the Legion needs to throw down with it foes in open battle. Hence the Terminator assault on the Nexus and the blitzkrieg attack. The reason for writing them in this light is because we need fodder for our tabletop games - let's face it, one squad of Alpha Legion assassins sniping the enemy leader in turn one and resulting in an automatic win for the Alpha Legion won't be very fun to fight on the tabletop. 

 

Just my two cents. 

[mc warhammer]

This was my first full length Thorpe read, and while I haven't minded his short tales, I can see why people were disappointed with this effort. Besides whether or not you agree with the concepts and ideas ( I don't believe in bad ideas, just bad execution), the story just lacks heart. I just came from reading the Night Lords trilogy on to this and it was like going somewhere clinical and cold. The pages mentioned emotions but nobody- not me or the characters- felt any.

 

Regarding AL depictions, I'm in the Legion camp. Not only did the AL and their primarchs seem mundane in Deliverance by comparison, but a bit silly too. I don't need to read about Omegon getting his jollies lying and manipulating seemed petty in a way that didn't suit. I could see him enjoying orchestrating something on a galactic level, but just messing around with some sort of tech guild priest guy? Ehh.

 

I'm not as bothered by the RG not discovering the infiltrators, and I do think the lack of precedent is a decent excuse. If someone you knew started acting weirdly after returning from a trip, would you instantly assume they'd been replaced by a double? Or would you first find a dozen other more acceptable excuses for their oddness before coming to that conclusion?

[Fire Golem]

 I'm not as bothered by the RG not discovering the infiltrators, and I do think the lack of precedent is a decent excuse. If someone you knew started acting weirdly after returning from a trip, would you instantly assume they'd been replaced by a double? Or would you first find a dozen other more acceptable excuses for their oddness before coming to that conclusion?

Especially if the trip was to watch most of your friends get gunned down by people you thought were allies.

[Kol Saresk]

 

I'm not as bothered by the RG not discovering the infiltrators, and I do think the lack of precedent is a decent excuse. If someone you knew started acting weirdly after returning from a trip, would you instantly assume they'd been replaced by a double? Or would you first find a dozen other more acceptable excuses for their oddness before coming to that conclusion?

Especially if the trip was to watch most of your friends get gunned down by people you thought were allies.

Having seen a few come back from similar trips, i'd be lying if I said there was no change in personality, for example the one lord commander thinking the other lord commander was suspicious, but the degrees of change were..... "Neglible" makes it sound bad but the changes weren't enough to make me think it was a completely different person. I could still look at them and know the same jokes were still funny and stuff. It was the same person. They just had more scars then when they left.

 

And those are recent events. Taking those recent experiences and combining them with my hindsight of Deliverance Lost, makes it worse.

 

And I think Mc Warhammer just hit why. The idea in and of itself wasn't bad(I wouldn't call it good either) but the execution was horrible. There was no depth, no emotion. It was all just..... There.

[Fire Golem]

 

 

I'm not as bothered by the RG not discovering the infiltrators, and I do think the lack of precedent is a decent excuse. If someone you knew started acting weirdly after returning from a trip, would you instantly assume they'd been replaced by a double? Or would you first find a dozen other more acceptable excuses for their oddness before coming to that conclusion?

Especially if the trip was to watch most of your friends get gunned down by people you thought were allies.

Having seen a few come back from similar trips, i'd be lying if I said there was no change in personality, for example the one lord commander thinking the other lord commander was suspicious, but the degrees of change were..... "Neglible" makes it sound bad but the changes weren't enough to make me think it was a completely different person. I could still look at them and know the same jokes were still funny and stuff. It was the same person. They just had more scars then when they left.

And those are recent events. Taking those recent experiences and combining them with my hindsight of Deliverance Lost, makes it worse.

And I think Mc Warhammer just hit why. The idea in and of itself wasn't bad(I wouldn't call it good either) but the execution was horrible. There was no depth, no emotion. It was all just..... There.

Well I've never known anyone go through anything like that so I was just imagining that it would change people, I hope no offence was taken or anything. I also wasn't defending the book because, like I've said I've never even managed to finish deliverance lost. I was just agreeing that something on the magnitude of the Dropsite Massacre would probably change people, and a small degree of abnormality in behaviour would probably be attributed to that. But if the behaviour is vastly different, I imagine questions would be asked. Especially as no one knows now who they can trust.