Karack Blackstone Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'll ask the elephant in the room question: what's your take on Flakk Missiles? Please keep it civil and proper; try to be constructive and explain your reasoning if you feel you can at the time of your post. Also, there are other anti air options, such as the Stormwolf and Stormfang, as well as the Aegis Defense Line with either the Quad AC or Icarus LC. Please, again, keep the Flakk discussion civil; I honestly would like to see some discussion about this topic and not have the thread need to be locked. To me, Flakk seems like a very heavy purchase, if I run 6 LF's with 5 ML's with Flakk on all of them, it's 215 points for that pack right there. However, that's cheaper than a GH pack fully tooled up with everything one might give them. The tradeoff in points is now rather sound, as it forces questions: for 215 I can get either nine GH's, one WGPL, CCW's on the GH's, 2 MG's, a PW (Sword), and have ten points left over for objective holding, or 6 LF's, 5 ML's w/ Flakk on all of them. I think what we need to do as a force of players is realize that our points now make more sense, and have stiffer competition between slots, as well as having more in line with the fluff list builds. Such as, GH's are fine; BC's are amazing now for their points, just as a pack. TWC are clearly first, however, Skyclaws are such a close second to me that I wonder if I can when I want to go without TWC; yes, this might be an issue, however, since C:SW is so new, picking them up is certainly in my plans to fix this situation. Keeping things civil, what are people's thoughts on Flakk? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The cost of two packs' worth of Flakk missiles is enough to buy a dedicated anti-air tank and put you a good way towards the HQ for the allied detachment (If you can't think of a good use for a unit of codex scouts or a guard blob, you're not trying hard enough), allowing you to shoot at fliers and still have your Long Fangs shoot at other things. Plus, you can hide AA tanks in reserves and have them come onto the table afterwords- which you can't do with Flakk missiles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 The cost of two packs' worth of Flakk missiles is enough to buy a dedicated anti-air tank and put you a good way towards the HQ for the allied detachment (If you can't think of a good use for a unit of codex scouts or a guard blob, you're not trying hard enough), allowing you to shoot at fliers and still have your Long Fangs shoot at other things. Plus, you can hide AA tanks in reserves and have them come onto the table afterwords- which you can't do with Flakk missiles. If possible, I prefer to keep it SW's; is this hurting me? Likely, I'm just in it to have fun and win if I can. The best part of WH40K is getting out of it whatever one wants to, let alone what one puts into said game. I realize I can ally, I just don't want to start other projects; I don't really have the funds right now, and any allies will only grow over time. I'm pretty sure it's possible to understand my reasoning there. I have an ADL, and it's something I plan to use; however, as it only has two wounds, I will need some kind of backup, be it flyer or Flakk. The option for Flakk is sound, however, yes, points can be put elsewhere. The question is what one has as far as models is concerned, and what one can do in smaller games to maximize bodies on the field, both in terms of numbers, as well as performance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hiding in reserves is the big thing, honestly. A heldrake can practically wipe out a pack of Long Fangs in one turn. The Tyranid Flying Circus can easily wipe out two. A pair of Night Croissants can put a dent in two and drop off a squad of deathmarks with a cryptek with an AP 1 template that wounds the Long Fangs on a 2+. Flakk just doesn't cut it. A Quad gun on the fortification of your choice can help, but it's still quite fragile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I feel like you are better served using the long fags to do what they always do and bring another option for AA I've played around with rune priest wearing the helm so I can ignore jink on a quad gun and use tempestus to force dangerous terrain tests on flyers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichfaust Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 A full squad of Long Fangs w/Flakk costs exactly the same as a Stormwolf, I know which I'd rather take for anti-air duty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 My humble opinion here, but we've got quite a few AA options, especially if you're willing to go outside the codex (allies and Forge World). Fortifications give some good options, too, and aren't quite the same as the other two, but are still 'out of the codex." Within the new codex, it seems that the Stormwolf is the hands-down winner for gaining Air Superiority, with all of its formidable twin-linked anti-tank weaponry, that'll have Skyfire whenever you feel like it. However, all of that aside, there is still a small niche for Flakk Missiles. They're for guys like me....guys that have been playing for a long time, have an established army, and don't really real like making new purchases and going through the hassle of assembling and painting new stuff. I want to use what I already have, and what I already have are a couple packs of Long Fangs. I just happen to need them to do one more job than they used to have to do (now being responsible for Air Defense, in addition to providing my force with long-ranged Fire Support.) Personally, I think the price point should have been 5 points each, but oh well, you win some and you lose some. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 That's a good point, Val. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichfaust Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Personally, I'm open to using multiple codices and/or FW--so when I'm looking for dedicated anti-air it'll be in the form of some Allied Hydras/Stalkers, Hyperios platforms or even some Broadsides with the skyfire wargear (Heresy!!). But the premium you pay for the lackluster flakk missile option on top of the new costs for MLs just isn't worth it--and I say this as someone who has 15 Long Fang models equipped with Missile Launchers already, so believe me when I say I wish it weren't so. But I'm not about to pay the cost of a barebones Grey Hunter squad more (vs. the old cost) for a unit that will be doing exactly what they did last edition 90% of the time (albeit slightly less effectively), and attempting to glance AV12 fliers on 5's the other 10% of the time... I think there are better choices for anti-air, but hey, to each his own. As for me, time to disassemble some Long Fangs! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrogzc Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'm going to give them a chance. Not in a all-purpose list but in a list against tyranids with atleast one flyrant and one crone. I will take 5 ML longfangs, 3 with flak missiles with a divination RP plus a Imperial Bastion with Icarus Lascannon. A bit expensive of course, but higly neccesary. Although i love the Stormwolf and am very willing to use it, I think that we need something to deal with the CMV unti our flyer show off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Using the flakk missiles simply because I don't feel like buying new stuff unless its FW space wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'm going to give them a chance. Not in a all-purpose list but in a list against tyranids with atleast one flyrant and one crone. I will take 5 ML longfangs, 3 with flak missiles with a divination RP plus a Imperial Bastion with Icarus Lascannon. A bit expensive of course, but higly neccesary. Although i love the Stormwolf and am very willing to use it, I think that we need something to deal with the CMV unti our flyer show off. I was thinking that a wolf priest with the Helm of Durfast would be a great way to buff this set up. You would just sit him on the gun, and maybe keep the ancient and one long fang for ablative wounds. He would give preferred enemy to the fangs and ignore cover(Jink) with the quad or las It would be expensive, but very versatile and effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 CatSmasher, the Wolf Priest would give Preferred Enemy, but only to a specific unit type, so you'd have to call out Vehicles (maybe even Flyers?) specifically to have an advantage for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 I too am in the have it and don't want to break it situation with my ten ML LF's. I know for a fact the Stormwolf is a thing that one can easily use to hunt enemy flyers. The problem is, until one or more of them arrive in a list, it's not going to be pretty to lack anti air options outside of said flier(s). I love the new fliers, and I need at least one; I just need to save up for one so I can get it, get it painted, and get it into a transport case to get it to the game. As it is, Flakk Missiles on ML's is seriously expensive comparatively; that said, for their role, and being on the table first turn, they are as LC LF's were last C:SW in terms of points, likely in trying to keep them alive, and with split fire, five Flakks at a flier should not be a major issue. It's just keeping a list CAD that will likely prove to be the difficult part. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 It would be flexible to a certain extent if you knew the opposing list. Perhaps this is a decent spot for Ulrik, although I can't recall if he get the Relic Helm. I generally like to keep my Warlord in the backfield (not a true wolf) and I think the cover he would get and the unit buff might work well together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Ulrik already comes with his own Relic Helm, the Wolf Helm of Russ. He's had it for ages ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I have so many LF of every flavour, they have done so much work for me- I can't bear to not use them; but this codex is pricing them out of the game! Flakk are not strong enough to cause enough real damage. But LF still get TLAC raz back as transport, and they are so good as AA, esp with 2 or 3 on the board! A RP with Prescience, next to LF with ML,will help them do as much damage to flyers as flakk, and is more versatile. However missiles now the same cost as Plas Cann- does prescience help with Gets Hot? It certainly helps with a whole load of AP2 hurt on target. so I'm gonna try a couple of packs of LF with plas cann and RP for ground units and a few Ass-Backs (TLAC raz-backs) trained to the skies.... I'm just gutted at all the units I use being so nightmare expensive- I guess that's how my army evolved: best ratio of Bang for Buck. Now we'll have to adjust! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'm considering shifting the role of my long fangs from armor hunting to infantry hunting with a tempestus rune priest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 ML's at XX points should have resulted in Flakk being included in the price. Don't see many people taking them unless they know their opponent has flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORKILL Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The helm on a cheap WGBL and the Icarus Lascannon is the way to go. Twin linked BS5, Ignores Cover with Interceptor and Skyfire, . Flak is for suckers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valor Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 A RP with Prescience, next to LF with ML,will help them do as much damage to flyers as flakk, and is more versatile. However missiles now the same cost as Plas Cann- does prescience help with Gets Hot? Yes, any re-roll effect allows you to re-roll and avoid getting hot. It'll get hot if you roll another 1 though:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 ML's at XX points should have resulted in Flakk being included in the price. Don't see many people taking them unless they know their opponent has flyers. 1) Stop writing out wargear costs. Do you want GW to take the site down? 2) Your opinions on wargear costs aside, we pay the same amount as everyone else, and that hasn't stopped codex devastators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3775948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 This will be my solution Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3776068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 ML's at XX points should have resulted in Flakk being included in the price. Don't see many people taking them unless they know their opponent has flyers. 1) Stop writing out wargear costs. Do you want GW to take the site down? 2) Your opinions on wargear costs aside, we pay the same amount as everyone else, and that hasn't stopped codex devastators. normal marines should also get this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3776192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 ML's at XX points should have resulted in Flakk being included in the price. Don't see many people taking them unless they know their opponent has flyers. 1) Stop writing out wargear costs. Do you want GW to take the site down? 2) Your opinions on wargear costs aside, we pay the same amount as everyone else, and that hasn't stopped codex devastators. normal marines should also get this No, I mean the standard price for missile launchers is fine- they're perfectly competitive at their current price. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295070-flakk-missile-discussion-and-anti-air-options/#findComment-3776194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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