random 30k thoughts

[mc warhammer]

just some quick blahs that don't fit anywhere else or deserve their own thread. comment or ignore at will.

 

 

just how effective are the night lord's scary tactics on their main foes? i can see it being great for subjugating human populace, but it doesn't have any real effect on space marines who "know no fear", right? or xenos who wouldn't be so much bothered by bat wings or human skulls. and i'm assuming chaos finds the whole thing a bit pedestrian. cute at the most.

 

curze's ideology that only terror and fear and martial rule can keep humanity in check must have taken a huge blow when he first heard of ultramar. 500 civilised worlds that worked just fine without oppression. anyone have any thoughts on how he might have rationalised this to himself? death might be nothing compared to vindication, but uh...500 worlds bro.

 

on the subject of curze...why does he want justice in any form at all, even initially? the world he was adopted by had no concept of it, so it's not like he learned it. is the suggestion that he innately desired goodness and justice (while also liking to have and eat his sadism cake) from birth? normally you learn these ideals from outside influences. i can even buy into the lion developing some sort of "honour of nature" from his upbringing...but curze?

 

why is angron such a deadly fighter? from what i can see, every primarch bar dorn is afraid to face him. was there seriously anything in the slaver pits that could put him to the test. wouldn't he be a bit of a slob in ring? or is he just that naturally gifted? has his time as a gladiator ever been fleshed out or hinted at to explain his reputation?

 

i'd be interested in more parallel between emperor's children and blood angels. i get the similarities between the emp childs and iron hands (and even iron warriors) in the singular pursuit of improvement and elevation beyond mundane humanity.  with the blood angels there are the obvious similarities (legions of models with flowing hair and a flair for artistry) , but more interesting to me is that the reason given in the novels for fulgrim's fall is similar to the reason given for sanguinius' loyalty : both fear that they are inherently flawed despite their superficial perfection.

 

are words like "choler" and "sanguine" falling out of favour in later novels or is it just me skipping huge chunks?

 

is it just me or does anyone else find it cute that the legions name all their stuff after themselves? we are the iron warriors, so we will name this ship the iron flying thing, and our best warriors will be known as the iron fighting circle and we will call this drink the iron milkshake. they really know how to run with a theme.

 

 

cheers bolter board

[Fire Golem]

In order these are my thoughts:

 

Humans are probably the main enemy to Legiones Astartes. The aim of the great crusade after all is to reunite humanity into one empire, and any that don't fit in, well... I guess that's where the NL come in ;) and at the end of the day they're still a legion, so they'd fare as well as any other legion against aliens.

 

Pass. I don't think much of Curze's logic holds much weight tbh.

 

I guess it is an innate 'goodness' as weird as that sounds with Curze... He realised he was powerful and wanted to change the planet he was on for the better. 'The ends justify the means' and all that. And I guess it's just how he got his kicks.

 

Angron was the best in his gladiatorial fights, but he also led a resistance against all the slavers on his planet, repeatedly. So I guess that would test him?

 

The rest I don't really have any thoughts on. Now I'm by no means the most knowledgable person here, these are just my thoughts based on what I know and have read so far, so other people might disagree with me (and probably be right). But... Yeah :)

[Adra'Melek]

Remember that the Primarchs existed in incubators before their were striped from the Emperor.  Who know's what information was being given to them at this point. Human babies learn very quickly, things like co-ordination, colour, sounds, etc.  Not generating them but regonising them, and making the pathways in the brain. For Primarchs it would be faster. Maybe they've got Bruce Lee movies playing to Angron, Judge Judy to Curze, etc.

[Leif Bearclaw]

As far as the NLs, one of their Exemplary Battles form Massacre has them going up against Orks in a void war, and it's noted that their traditional terror tactics don't work. So instead they just play the hit and run game, bleeding and disrupting the Orks, stopping them form consolidating the system until superior forces can be assembled to crush them.

As for Angron. I think he's such a deadly fighter because he's bat insane, which gives him something of an edge, akin to the Viking Berserker at Stamford Bridge. But are the other Primarchs afraid to face him? From what I've read on here (haven't read the actual novels in question), both Russ and Gulliman have fought him, the later a couple of times, doesn't sound like there's much fear there. I can't really see the likes of Russ, Sanguinius, Jonson or Ferrus being afraid to fight anything. Note I'm not saying who would win, really don't want another Primarch vs thread, only that I don't see them being afraid to fight Angron, or any of the Traitor Primarchs for that matter.

[mc warhammer]

afraid was my hyperbole, though corax seems certain he won't survive an encounter with angron even though he seems comfy with the concept of going toe to toe with horus.

[Balthamal]

If you want a more in depth analysis of how Konrad Curze's "philosophies" developed then I highly recommend reading Prince of Crows. Does a damn fine job of laying it all out. What it basically boils down to though, is that he because the embodiment of sin - corruption/violence/intimidation so that the people of Nostramo didn't have to. The fact that they chose to continue doing so until they were terrified past the point of submission is the tragic irony of the Night Haunter

[Kol Saresk]

The terror aspect is a side effect. The Night Lords primary MO is shock assault, hitting fast and hitting hard. Howeverm one of their primary habits is to try and fix the battlefield. In the case of humans, its as easy as leaving one in every ten to bleed out where they can be seen. In the case of the Astartes, vehicle sabotage and maybe one or two assassinations. In the case of Xenos, identifying priority targets, such as offspring, religious icons and such and wiping them out. And after all that is said and done, how did that guy from Far Cry 3 put it? "BLITZKRIEG!"

[Zeratil]

Curze and the Night Lords tactics: Well the astartes of the crusade are not quite the same as the more hypno-indocrinated ones of the 41st milenium, which is represented by them not having And They Shall Not Follow The Rules (and thus being vulnerable to the fear rules), they are of course immune to fear as mortals experience it, but if you listen to The Dark King I think that gives you an idea of the potential effectiveness of Curze's tactics (he tears apart a bunch of Dorn's first company while jumping around on the ceiling - very well written and performed). Clearly their tactics wouldn't be as effective on Space Marines as on mortal populations, but they could be adapted to more traditional hit & run and stealth attacks, so their opponents don't know where the next attack will come from, impairing their judgement and abilities if not causing them fear per se.

 

Curze and Macragge: Your second point is brought up exactly like that in Unremembered Empire (I think), although Curze's response is to try and kill the person saying it....

 

Curze and Justice: My read is that all the Primarchs were either born with, or indoctrinated with, some sense of justice from birth, as they all sort it in one way or another on the worlds they landed on. Curze, landing on a world where there seemed to be no justice went for the most straight forward, retributive justice, an eye for an eye and set about punishing anyone he could to establish order. Of course it soon evolved into 'a life for an eye'....

 

I think Angron is such a deadly fighter for a number of reasons, firstly all the Primarcchs have things they are innately gifted at, they're all brilliant fighters, but Angron is, in single combat, one of the best. Maybe that's part of what the emperor designed him to be? Secondly the butchers nails drive him to heights of skill unmatched by his peers, even as they tear his mind apart and give him little sense of self-preservation.

 

I'd like to see some BA / EC comparison too, I think a battle/book about heresy EC and BA would be fun.

 

I suspect word use depends on who's writing at the time.

 

And lastly there's nothing wrong with having pride in your Legion :)

[Kilofix]

In Unremembered Empire - Curze's 'Terror' tactics were still quite effective against Astartes. Though not so much the 'Terror' part but more the hit and run and stealth parts.

 

Curze held Justice and Fear as principles. When he realized that neither were 'right' he suicided himself by Callidus. Hence his lesson.

 

Edit - Callidus not Culexus (thanks Leif!)

[Xin Ceithan]

Good Points and excellent reading suggestions on Curze and the HH Night Lords there already ( read Prince of Crows in any case)

For my penny,

Curze would probably sneer when confronted with the 500 worlds earlier and go with some "The Collapse of civilisation is just three warm meals away" nudge. By UE he is not in a mood for friendly philosophical debates anymore...

 

And wasn't there a thread with some really good take on BA / EC differences some Time ago? That is certainly worth digging up...

 

Edited due to Mobile Phone Shenaningans

[Fire Golem]

I quite like Curze actually. He seems to get a lot of stick but I think he is a fairly tragic character.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Curze held Justice and Fear as principles. When he realized that neither were 'right' he suicided himself by Culexus. Hence his lesson.

Have to be pedantic here, the assassin was Callidus, not Culexus (they're the pariah ones) .

[Wade Garrett]

"Ultramar? Ha! Those shining cities your Legion glories in were built on blood and terror, the same as any other. Ask the hill tribes who faced Guilliman's shining phalanxes how noble, how enlightened his rule was.

 

He killed until all accepted his rule, the same as all the Eighteen Sires. The only difference is the great Roboute Guilliman was born to power and luxury, with armies to work his will on his people. My father had nothing but his own two hands!"

 

-Valtesh, Sergeant of the VIII Legion, to an unknown Ultramarine during at the Desolation of Llorwydon.

[Marshal Rohr]

To say justice didn't exist on Nostramo isn't accurate. Any society will have a theory of distributive and corrective justice. Nostramo was farther on the might is right spectrum than we may be comfortable with, but it would still be there. Part of the whole story of Night Haunter is that he imposed an entirely different system of corrective justice on the population because of their society's moral system. He imposed an alien concept of morality, heavily implied to be genetically wired in him, on a people who had no use or desire for it. Because his formative years were spent in isolation, he adopted the 'violence is might, and might is right' mechanism for imposing his morality on the people.

 

There is a strong case to be made that if Curze had been exposed to the Emperor sooner, or landed on another planet, that he would've become the 'Judge' of the Imperium. Because he was found so late, and after such a messed up childhood, no one taught him how to use his gift and it drove him crazy.

[Kol Saresk]

Ultimately, it all depends on your definition of justice. Are you one of those "snitches get stitches" even if snitching would save someone's life? Or are you someone who believes in Saving lives regardless of the cost? Are you a pure Darwinian in that only the strong survive and anything that attempts to violate that must be removed?

 

That's why I look at an idea like "natural ethics" and laugh. Because if we were all born with the exact same standards of right and wrong, we would't need laws. We'd take a cue from the animals and just live as our instincts told us to.

[Xin Ceithan]

Uhh, since we are nitpicking....Pure Darwinisim states that it's "survival of the fittest". E.g. Most adaptable, not necessarily strongest.

 

In totally unrelated news:

Wade, you have a lovely way with words for sure.

[Kol Saresk]

One could argue the most adaptable is the strongest.

[TrafficCustodes]

NL Tactics: I feel like the HH series has been pretty good at presenting some Legions as better suited (by doctrine and experience) for fighting other Astartes. The Night Lords aren't one of these Legions. I wouldn't bet against them, but I feel their natural prey are humans, not Astartes or xenos.

 

Curze V Guilliman and Justice: Angron had a nice little diatribe in 'Betrayer' against Roboute's 500 Worlds and how some Primarchs landed in far better circumstances than others, giving them an unfair advantage. I think any Primarch, when confronted with the "Your brother managed to raise a world-spanning society without doing (x) atrocity, why did you have to?" would be unlikely to admit their method of 'civilisation' was flawed.

 

Angron as a fighter: I subscribe to the 'he's mad as a basket of wasps' theory...

 

EC and BA parallels: I agree, I always thought these Legions (and Primarchs) should get much more in the way of interaction in the series. It's not too late (though it'd probably have to be a flashback at this point).

 

Choler/Sanguine: They do seem to be falling out of favour, which is a shame. I thought those 'four humours' bits were a fun addition to Astartes outlook/mythology.

[Kol Saresk]

True. But let's look at Corax, the Deliverer. He led a revolution. And then he nuked the planet below, knowing that hed be killing thousands of innocent people. Meanwhile you get Curze. At least everyone he killed was guilty of some heinous act or another even if it was just supporting the people who did it.

 

And yet Corax was the good apple while Curze was the bad one.

[Slips]

I think the reason Curze turned out as such a bad apple is due to his precognition slowly grinding away at his sanity and the potential for him having a split personality in the form of the Night Haunter.

[Wade Garrett]

True. But let's look at Corax, the Deliverer. He led a revolution. And then he nuked the planet below, knowing that hed be killing thousands of innocent people. Meanwhile you get Curze. At least everyone he killed was guilty of some heinous act or another even if it was just supporting the people who did it.

 

There was the small matter that he'd also kill the families, friends, business associates, and pets of those guilty of heinious acts and those who supported them.

;)

[TrafficCustodes]

True. But let's look at Corax, the Deliverer. He led a revolution. And then he nuked the planet below, knowing that hed be killing thousands of innocent people. Meanwhile you get Curze. At least everyone he killed was guilty of some heinous act or another even if it was just supporting the people who did it.

 

And yet Corax was the good apple while Curze was the bad one.

Even worse, IIRC Corax did that with the Emperor standing by saying "hey, do what you think is best, son." Role models are important...

 

Though I guess continued conduct is a big factor. That nuking of Kiavahr was a horrifying, but isolated, incident of Corax putting the accomplishment of his goals before the avoidance of collateral damage/civilian casualties. As far as I remember from Raven Guard fluff, that wasn't how they tended to roll in the Great Crusade and beyond.

 

However, Kurze murdered large amounts of people consistently, in horrible ways, for his entire life. I'm not sure I'd call them 'civilians', but for a lot of them, the amount they deserved it was... debateable. And he wasn't bothered by his Legion doing the same.

[Kol Saresk]

 

True. But let's look at Corax, the Deliverer. He led a revolution. And then he nuked the planet below, knowing that hed be killing thousands of innocent people. Meanwhile you get Curze. At least everyone he killed was guilty of some heinous act or another even if it was just supporting the people who did it.

 

There was the small matter that he'd also kill the families, friends, business associates, and pets of those guilty of heinious acts and those who supported them.

;)

When even the kids are rapists and murderers, they're just as guilty as their fathers an mothers.

 

Besides, killing thieves, rapists, murderers and man-eating dogs versus innocent slaves who did nothing but be born into the wrong family. Let's face it, who's the real monster? ;)

[Cactus]

Angron in the arena: I always assumed that the butcher's nails were just one of a variety of available modifications. Index Astartes describes Nuceria as "technologically advanced" and the gladiators as "cybernetically enhanced" which covers quite a lot. Angron possibly had to fight people who were wired into suits the size of dreadnoughts or riptides, packs of savage gene-engineered megafauna and mobs of what we would consider to be arco-flagellants. Before breakfast.

[mc warhammer]

Easier to just reply in one block…

 

 

 

Fire Golem, I can see how leading the rebels would test him after a fashion, but for an oversimplified analogy- if one spends their life fighting hundreds of children and then finally fights an adult for the first time, I’m not so sure that previous experience counts for much. I’m assuming that there was some intensive training for each primarch when inducted into the Great Crusade. And Cactus, the idea of augmented gladiators who can challenge a primarch makes some sense to me but I was under the impression that most cultures outside of Imperium did not have that sort of power and tech. Isn’t his home planet described as a little backwards in that regard when he Angron drops back in for tea (in contrast to the IA)? Did they just forget to bring these primarch-beaters out when Angron killed the planet?

 

 

 

Thunor’s Hammer- that’s an interesting idea. If you’re downloading or bombarding skills into baby primarch brains, you can put whatever you want in there. 24 hour loops of women in bikinis modelling around a nice big slab of iron beamed right into Manus’ baby noggin. Certainly fits with the whole “designer primarch” concept.

 

 

 

Balthamal, “Prince of Crows” is actually what sparked a lot of this thought on Curze, as I think that story goes quite some way to reveal that his philosophy is full of holes which he knows and so does his legion (even if becoming the surrogate sinner for society was a workable thing, it’s a short-sighted solution which requires his constant presence). My take is that like most fanatics, the truth and facts do not matter, he has invested too much into his extremism and to alter it in the face of reality is unthinkable.

 

 

 

Kol, the way I’m seeing the NL terror tactics (in light of this thread) is that it’s one tool in the box that they bring out when appropriate, and it may even be their favourite tool, but it’s not the only or even most effective one in their kit.

 

 

 

Zeratil, Curze’s attitude when challenged fits perfectly- he’s not into mediation or dissention or even discussion. Probably alien concepts to him. I’d be really interested to see more of his time with Fulgrim and if the Phoenician attempted to introduce him to those concepts. I’m also really curious as to why Fulgrim of all his brothers felt true compassion for Curze, since the way Fulgrim has been written paints him as disdainful of others not approaching his ideal of perfection. Curze is certainly guilty of that.

 

 

 

Kilofix, I can see how Curze’s kill spree could bring even an astartes somewhat close to fear; I was more referring to putting bat wings on your helmet, but as most people have made clear…I was missing the point.

 

 

 

Xin Ceithan, thanks for the tip on the BA/EC thread. I’ll do some digging.

 

 

 

Wade, very nice snippet there. Makes me wonder where a (likely impossible) debate between Valtesh and this unknown Ultra might go. Imagining that the Ultra concedes the point of necessary bloodshed to bring a chaotic populace to order, however (if I understand Ultramar’s governance properly) Roboute used it in order to remove oppression and replace it with relative freedom and autonomy for the population. Curze leaves his planet and without the “sinner” to watch over them, Nostramo’s population backslides while Roboute leaves and the clockwork keeps ticking- the proof is in the pudding. I’d hope the Ultra would allow for the fact that his primarch had the advantages of privilege, but make it clear that it is totally besides the point. Valtesh painting his primarch as the underdog slash victim might explain his actions but it doesn’t excuse them; especially after he has been exposed to the rest of the imperium and inherited privileges and resources. Traffic Custodes (nice handle, btw), that does seem to be the general attitude of 30k : “My way or the highway. So. Let’s work together on this crusade thing”.

 

 

 

Marshal2 Cursaders, I really like that idea of Curze as Judge. Makes me wonder about the original intentions behind the “broken primarchs” if we hold with the designer primarch theory.

 

 

 

Regarding Curze vs Corax in terms of targeting the guilty, I agree with Kol. It seems that in Curze’s eyes there were no innocents, which makes me wonder why he even cared in the first place. If you aren’t protecting the non-sinners from the sinful then you are forcing order for its own sake and not for theirs.