Psychic powers and The Grey Knights.

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I need a little help here, I am reading my new 7th ed Rule book and trying to get my head around the new Psychic phase.

 

My Terminator Grey Knights know the Banishment and Hammerhand powers from Deamonology (Sanctic) (from the FAQ) and due to their weapons, the Force Psychic power.

 

Do I just choose which one to use in the Psychic phase?

 

As they are Mastery Level one I can only choose one?

 

Does this mean if I use Force and make all my Nemesis Weapons Instant Death, I can't use any others? Or could I use Hammerhand as well.

 

I am a little confused, never used Psykers before.

 

Also if a Psyker generates all his powers from one discipline, he will automatically know the Primaris power, but later on it states that when generating your psychic powers you can substitute any for the Primaris power, is this for someone who is generating powers from across all disciplines and not automatically knowing the Primaris power?

 

I know I am being a bif here, but I am struggling to get my head around it, good job I am not a Psyker.

[Bionicman]

Oh-oh my psychic forewarning tells me that this will be a long thread full of different opinions and rage. Thing is there are two pages in the BRB supporting both opinions...

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

Oh . I had hoped for a nice simple, it's like this mate, answer. Have I just opened a massive can of worms?

[Dam13n]

The numbers of psychic powers that a psyker can cast has been discussed in the OR forum:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291599-manifesting-psychic-powers/

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I read it again. And again.

 

The way I see it at the moment is.....

 

My GK Terminators know Banishment, Hammerhand and Force, thats three powers, they can only use one per turn as they are only ML 1.

 

The Primaris power is already known, so there can be no swaps.

 

If however I was generating powers from several disciplines I would not know the Primaris power by having Psychic Focus and could swap my generated power for it.

If I did choose from the same discipline, I could not swap a random power for it as I already know it (Psychic Focus) and you can not know a power twice.

 

Is that right?

[Landrick]

Mine cast until I am out of dice. Where is your faith in the Emperor, brother?

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I am going with...

 

For a GK to activate a Force weapon should be like blinking to us.

To cast Hammerhand on himself should be like breathing to us.

 

I can blink and breath at the same time. If I want to use all my dice pool on one squad I can, sticking to the attempts rule, or I can use it on several to get different results.

 

Maybe I want extra strength attacks on squad a, but Instant death would work better on squad B. Cast as I see fit.

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

Without quoting, it says, on page 24 bottom left, that if you have dice left you can attempt another power with the same unit, or pick another unit and attempt, you can bounce backwards and forwards if you want and still have dice left. The only restriction is you cant attempt the same power twice with the same unit.

 

It does not mention if the attempt is successful or not, it just says attempt. All powers start with an attempt.

 

I keep going with the psyker I want until the attempts run out or the dice run out.

[Captain Coolpants]

I know the wording is messed up and supports both sides.

 

But we 'KNOW' that it's only meant to be '1' power 'per turn' 'per mastery level'.

 

Not all the powers available per turn regardless of mastery level.

 

But as the rule isn't well written, then in my opinion exploitation of this is completely justified. As it's their fault for c*cking up.

 

Same goes for falchions and the greatsword, we 'know how' it's meant to work, but we've all exploited the wording for re-rolls/double attacks Lol

 

But if you're a good person then you should use them how it's intended.

[Landrick]

I must respectfully disagree. I don't know that or believe that is the intent. Why bother giving a free primaris and force to a lvl 1 psyker then? Also, last edition we could cast multiple per turn, and there is no indication we are now limited except for a narrow interpretation of some of the rules.

[Captain Coolpants]

We could only ever cast 1 power per mastery level a turn last edition, just last edition we could activate our powers during different turns as our powers regenerated at each players turn and not game turn. But this edition we HAVE to activate everything at a single turn and they don't regenerate till the next.

 

So in a way we did get nerfed

[Captain Coolpants]

But it also means that we must play faaar more strategically.

And previously librarians could buy powers for 5pts each. If they bought 10, it didn't mean they could use that many a turn did it... Just means they could use different things in different situations

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

So does all this confusion and hassle make it worth taking the auto switch on for force weapons? The Banner is it?

[Bionicman]

So does all this confusion and hassle make it worth taking the auto switch on for force weapons? The Banner is it?

 Banner got FAQ nerf'ed... Will see in the newcodex which is coming up this month ;)

[Captain Coolpants]

Well the banner actually says auto pass the psychic test to activate force, not auto activate without a warp charge cost :-\

So I think it still counts as a power used, just Instead of rolling with a potential to fail/perils/opponent to dispel, it's a guaranteed activation.

 

But yes as bionicman said, our new codex is coming out within a few weeks, so the rules night be different again. Best just to wait for that one before deciding to model your men with them.

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

Just read a warseer chat that came to the conclusion that because it was auto pass, not auto activate, it used a power and you could not use another power, they must have gone with the ML1 = 1 power per turn.

Yeah, new codex, rumours destroyed my new 1500 point force.

 

Killed off GM Mordrak and lost Inquisitiors. My 2 HQ choices.

 

So i have 10 GK Termies, 15 GK PA with magnetized back packs, oh and a Psyfleman, which is rumoured to be losing Psybolt Ammo.

 

I also have a Storm Raven.

[Adeptus]

I know the wording is messed up and supports both sides.

 

But we 'KNOW' that it's only meant to be '1' power 'per turn' 'per mastery level'.

I absolutely disagree. It's quite clearly meant to be "1 attempt at each power, until you run out of dice". I understand how you could reach the '1 power per mastery level' conclusion, but IMO it is obviously wrong.

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

 

I know the wording is messed up and supports both sides.

 

But we 'KNOW' that it's only meant to be '1' power 'per turn' 'per mastery level'.

I absolutely disagree. It's quite clearly meant to be "1 attempt at each power, until you run out of dice". I understand how you could reach the '1 power per mastery level' conclusion, but IMO it is obviously wrong.

 

I agree, I once again refer to the wording on page 24, Without quoting, it says, on page 24 bottom left, that if you have dice left you can attempt another power with the same unit, or pick another unit and attempt, you can bounce backwards and forwards if you want and still have dice left. The only restriction is you cant attempt the same power twice with the same unit.

 

It does not mention if the attempt is successful or not, it just says attempt. All powers start with an attempt.

[Dread]

The way I read the rules, you can use each power. It doesn't state anything about only 1 per turn, unlike in WH fantasy. The others in my game group say the same thing otherwise we would only have power per lvl.

[Valerian]

Just read a warseer chat that came to the conclusion that because it was auto pass, not auto activate, it used a power and you could not use another power, they must have gone with the ML1 = 1 power per turn.

Yeah, new codex, rumours destroyed my new 1500 point force.

 

Killed off GM Mordrak and lost Inquisitiors. My 2 HQ choices.

 

So i have 10 GK Termies, 15 GK PA with magnetized back packs, oh and a Psyfleman, which is rumoured to be losing Psybolt Ammo.

 

I also have a Storm Raven.

 

You actually have a good start at an army there, SF.  Mordrak will be gone, but you'll be able to create a DIY Mordrak replacement, more or less, with the basic Grand Master choice, and perhaps one or two of the new Relics, as well as the unique Warlord Traits, and a Master-crafted Hammer.  Your 10 Grey Knight Terminators will be better than ever, with a much cheaper starting price per model.  Your 15 Knights in PA (with magnetized backpacks, well done!) will have flexibility to serve as either Strikes, Purifiers, or Interceptors as you see fit, too.  You're Rifleman Dreadnought is still likely to be a great choice, even if they end up losing the extra point of Strength from Psybolt ammo, you'll still have an S7, 4xshot, twin-linked platform, and the upgrade to Venerable for him (for extra BS and better survivability) is going to be the cost of a Power Fist, so he's good too.  You'll be able to easily ally your Inquisitor back in from the Inquisition codex, easily, and I don't think you even have to ally in any Henchman with him (will double-check on that if someone else doesn't pipe in first).

 

In my opinion, all you need are a few more PAGK, to round out a full Purifier squad, and a Dreadknight, because they are boss, and are coming down significantly in points cost.

 

I think you're going to be just fine, actually.

 

V

[Valerian]

The way I read the rules, you can use each power. It doesn't state anything about only 1 per turn, unlike in WH fantasy. The others in my game group say the same thing otherwise we would only have power per lvl.

 

I'm not a Moderator over in this forum, but I highly recommend we don't rekindle that old debate here in this thread.  It has already occurred in other threads in this forum, as well as the Official Rules forum, which Brother Dam1En linked for us all above.  Nothing anyone here has to say hasn't already been said many times before.  Recommend we drop this aspect of the rules, and let the OP decide with his fellow gamers how they're going to play that in 7e.  Let's focus on helping him with his other questions and psychic phase issues.

 

V

[Dread]

Sorry V, didn't mean to dredge anything up.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm not a Moderator over in this forum, but I highly recommend we don't rekindle that old debate here in this thread.  It has already occurred in other threads in this forum, as well as the Official Rules forum, which Brother Dam1En linked for us all above.  Nothing anyone here has to say hasn't already been said many times before.  Recommend we drop this aspect of the rules, and let the OP decide with his fellow gamers how they're going to play that in 7e.  Let's focus on helping him with his other questions and psychic phase issues.

 

Its very hard to avoid that rules issue while still answering the OP's other questions though. Especially the issue of casting multiple powers, as it relates directly to tactics with Knights. 

 

Scott_Francis, there are two broad interpretations of the psychic phase and how it works. I'll put the stuff that's 100% legit (ie cannot be read any other way) in white. The rest I'll leave red, so you know whats debatable (and thus you need to work out a ruling with your mates, at least until an FAQ from GW answers it). 

 

Step 1: Generate Warp Charges: Every Mastery level in your army added together, plus a D6. Your opponent generates his own dispel charges in the exact same way. 

Step 2: Choose a psyker

Step 3: Select a power the psyker knows, and a number of warp charges. You need at least the minimum number of  charges to cast a power ie a WC2 needs at least two charges

Step 4: Attempt the power, and resolve its effects (ie including any Perils you might suffer)

Step 5a: You may go back to Step 1 and choose the same psyker to cast a different power they know (you can't cast the same power from the same psyker). You may do this for every power they know, provided you have enough warp charges to attempt them. 

Step 5b: You may only go back to Step 1 with the same psyker if they have a Mastery level of 2 or greater. Their Mastery level denotes how many powers they may cast in the psychic phase. So, a Mastery 2 could cast two powers, a Mastery 3 three etc etc. 

 

5a is RAW, and is supported by many pieces of evidence (the free primaris power from Psychic Focus, the lack of any restriction to casting multiple different powers from a single psyker when the rules very explicitly say you cannot cast copies of the same power from the same psyker, the breakdown listed in a table in the Psychic phase section of the main rulebook making no mention of such a restriction etc). Under this interpretation, having multiple powers on a Level 1 psyker is relevant, although the restriction of Warp Charges still puts a limit of how many you can cast. 

 

5b is RAI, and relies on only two pieces of evidence. The first is a piece of explanatory text in the Psychic phase section, left in bold, which states 'the number of powers a psyker can use depends on their Mastery level'. This piece of explanatory text can be interpreted in two ways. Firstly, it could mean that psykers can only cast a number of powers equal to their Mastery level. Alternatively, it could mean that a psyker will only know a certain number of powers, unless they have extra powers granted by wargear (most commonly force weapons granting 'Force') or by Psychic Focus (the free primaris power you get from generating your powers from only one discipline). 

The other piece of evidence people use to justify 5b is that 6th edition had the restriction of Mastery Level = number of powers you can cast. However, 7th edition makes no mention of this restriction anymore. Again, two interpretations can be made. GW have either chosen not to mention the restriction because it no longer applies, or because it is still in effect and they simply forgot to spell it out. 

 

Which you choose to use is entirely up to you. This issue affects every army with psykers currently, and GW still have not FAQ'd 7th edition. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Also if a Psyker generates all his powers from one discipline, he will automatically know the Primaris power, but later on it states that when generating your psychic powers you can substitute any for the Primaris power, is this for someone who is generating powers from across all disciplines and not automatically knowing the Primaris power?

 

Yes. So generally speaking, unless you really want the Primaris from a different Discipline, you should select all your powers from one Discipline and get the primaris for free. Especially for Disciplines like Telepathy or Divination, where the Primaris is arguably better than many of the random powers. 

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

"5a is RAW, and is supported by many pieces of evidence (the free primaris power from Psychic Focus, the lack of any restriction to casting multiple different powers from a single psyker when the rules very explicitly say you cannot cast copies of the same power from the same psyker, the breakdown listed in a table in the Psychic phase section of the main rulebook making no mention of such a restriction etc). Under this interpretation, having multiple powers on a Level 1 psyker is relevant, although the restriction of Warp Charges still puts a limit of how many you can cast.

5b is RAI, and relies on only two pieces of evidence. The first is a piece of explanatory text in the Psychic phase section, left in bold, which states 'the number of powers a psyker can use depends on their Mastery level'. This piece of explanatory text can be interpreted in two ways. Firstly, it could mean that psykers can only cast a number of powers equal to their Mastery level. Alternatively, it could mean that a psyker will only know a certain number of powers, unless they have extra powers granted by wargear (most commonly force weapons granting 'Force') or by Psychic Focus (the free primaris power you get from generating your powers from only one discipline).

The other piece of evidence people use to justify 5b is that 6th edition had the restriction of Mastery Level = number of powers you can cast. However, 7th edition makes no mention of this restriction anymore. Again, two interpretations can be made. GW have either chosen not to mention the restriction because it no longer applies, or because it is still in effect and they simply forgot to spell it out.

Which you choose to use is entirely up to you. This issue affects every army with psykers currently, and GW still have not FAQ'd 7th edition. "

This smacks of another badly worded rule I questioned about Falchions.

Not dragging that one up again, I really should learn to not start an army that is at war with itself.

Any hoo, it will all get sorted with our new Codex in a few weeks.

On another note, I have read the rumours that we will be able to create Grand Masters with many varied and powerful abilities to act as our old "missing" Characters could. I just hope there will be a Relic that will allow my GM to DS in with his 10 Termie squad. Oh and I think I will be dropping the Inquisitor and trying to squeeze in a DreadKnight with Sword.

Thanks for the help guys. It has helped to sort it out in my head and as I am going to do with the Falchion thing, until sorted in the new codex, go with the argument I most strongly back up with the evidence as written.