The Talon Of Horus

[b1soul]

The advantage of having Sigismund killed by another famous character is that there's a double impact.

 

Being overwhelmed by a horde of daemons even as he hacks them down...that's pretty badass but the reader has no connection to the daemons, no matter how powerful they are. They're just the stuff of Chaos. There's good and bad to every idea.

 

You could have Sigismund vs. Abaddon and several Justaerin at once. This sort of highlights that Abaddon is a villain. He's not above forcing an unfair fight when he has the opportunity. That way, the outcome of a 1 on 1 between Sigismund and Abaddon is left uncertain

[Loesh]

...Honestly, despite not being an archetype I enjoy, I feel Abaddon should win one on one.

 

I think anything less then a mythological one on one duel between characters would be doing them BOTH a disservice.

 

But hey, I have weird ideas about the setting sometimes.

[b1soul]

It would help to rehabilitate his image. Failbaddon no more...

[Loesh]

It would help to rehabilitate his image. Failbaddon no more...

 

Well, that's not even what I was thinking of.

 

It's just that Sigismund, being the knight to end all knights, being overwhelmed by a horde or cheated in a fight seems rather...ignoble? it reminds me of this scene in the Word Bearers Omnibus, where this captain is trying to taunt Marduk into a fight to the death, and he just sneers and orders the captains execution to his outrage.

 

Space Marines, even Traitor Space Marines, have a code of conduct and a perception of what is noble and good. They understand what a heroic death is, and what the demands of honor are. To someone that marine doesn't respect, sure he'll let them be torn apart by daemons, but between two people like Sigismund and Abaddon? No one would interfere, like no one interfered in the fight between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, to do so would be abhorrent...to be sinful.

 

No, the only way for Sigismund to die like a hero, to die like a space marine, is to finally be defeated and at last die by the sword.

[Volt]

 

Honestly, the most interesting thing about Talon of Horus is the Imperial Daemons created by the GEOM/Astronomicon that scour the outer worlds of the Eye of Terror.

This was probably the coolest part of the book for me, and since the book was chock-full of insanely cool stuff, that's saying something. 

 

It also changes a lot, and lends credence to both ideas that the GEOM is not only a Warp God, but is also capable of supplying his followers with an afterlife, which also makes the Legion of the Damned a whole lot more interesting. Plus it supports the idea that the Legion of the Damned are daemons, which also explains a whole lot about how ridiuclously hax they are.

 

 

...Honestly, despite not being an archetype I enjoy, I feel Abaddon should win one on one.

 

I think anything less then a mythological one on one duel between characters would be doing them BOTH a disservice.

 

But hey, I have weird ideas about the setting sometimes.

Actually, Sigismund being killed by Daemons would be a better route as it bears more connection to Roland the Paladin's demise.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Mort_de_Roland.jpg

[Loesh]

There's points for the reference, yes. I'm not sure if that's the way he should go though...then again, i'm not the one writing the book, ADB is. There's a lot of connection to things like that in the backstory, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route taken...I just feel it's be a bit ill fitting.

[b1soul]

being overwhelmed by a horde or cheated in a fight seems rather...ignoble? 

 

What's more "ignoble": the 300 Spartans losing to 300 Persian Immortals...or 300 Spartans losing to 20,000 Persian regulars. 

 

Yes, the Immortals are elite warriors as well, but 20,000 regulars > 300 Immortals in my humble opinion. It wouldn't be ignoble to be overwhelmed by such numbers. 

 

In the case of Sigismund, losing to Abaddon, 40K's version of the Everchosen of Chaos, wouldn't be ignoble. Losing to a daemon horde or multiple enemy champions wouldn't be ignoble either (especially if Abaddon leads those champions). I find it a little bit odd that Abaddon would engage in a fair fight when he has allies to help him win with minimum risk. 

 

My point is...there are multiple ways in which a writer could invest Sigismund's death with potent meaning. Being killed in a duel is one way. However, having Sigismund retain an unblemished record to the end and having him sacrifice himself in some other way...that would be another way of handling it. Both have meaning. 

 

The former highlights the victory of Chaos over the Imperium, the sacrifice of perhaps its greatest hero. The latter is a bit more heartening I suppose. The Imperium might be crumbling but one champion, one shining example manages to remain undefeated. No enemy champion could face him and live. His foes had to resort to treachery. It's a moral victory for the Imperium even though Sisismund is eventually overwhelmed somehow.

 

I understand 40K is grimdark, but the Imperium could benefit from a bit of a morale booster every now and then.  Having Sigismund killed in 1 on 1 combat is like having Achilles killed in 1 on 1 combat. The Iliad instead has him die by arrow through the heel...which is a bit "ignoble" I suppose...but it's Paris (the brother of Hector) who shoots the arrow. Thus his death is quite powerful. It also reinforces the idea that no other warrior has a good chance of killing him in 1 on 1 combat.     

[Loesh]

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

[Volt]

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

I wonder when modern culture will actually acknowledge that there were six thousand Greeks, and around a 100,000 Persians at Thermopylae.

[Loesh]

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

I wonder when modern culture will actually acknowledge that there were six thousand Greeks, and around a 100,000 Persians at Thermopylae.

 

 

Don't even get me started on three hundred, it's just...the Spartans abhorring slavery? scorning the supernatural? Just...just....

 

*Takes his crazy pills* It should of been about the Sacred Band of Thebes instead.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

I wonder when modern culture will actually acknowledge that there were six thousand Greeks, and around a 100,000 Persians at Thermopylae.

. . . Doesn't it? I mean, the movies were just based off of a fantastical comic.

[Loesh]

 

. . . Doesn't it? I mean, the movies were just based off of a fantastical comic.

 

 

You'd be surprised how many people you run into who think it's historical.

 

But I digress, like I said it's dependent on the school of thought. For me, getting swarmed by the masses isn't representative of determination, so much as it's representative of futility and isolation. A last clawing gasp before total oblivion where nothing you do truly matters, usually followed by the desecration and stringing up of the remains as a grim totem to those who would follow in their footsteps.

 

Where a duel is a contest of wills and skills bound within a ring of honor, there is no shame in being slain within it.

[Volt]

 

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

I wonder when modern culture will actually acknowledge that there were six thousand Greeks, and around a 100,000 Persians at Thermopylae.

. . . Doesn't it? I mean, the movies were just based off of a fantastical comic.

 

I'm pretty sure the original 1960's 300 movie wasn't based on a comic made decades later.

[A D-B]

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

Ah, but so beautifully mentioned in Gates of Fire.

[b1soul]

 

Ah, but so beautifully mentioned in Gates of Fire.

 

The opposite of fear is love

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

I wonder when modern culture will actually acknowledge that there were six thousand Greeks, and around a 100,000 Persians at Thermopylae.

. . . Doesn't it? I mean, the movies were just based off of a fantastical comic.

I'm pretty sure the original 1960's 300 movie wasn't based on a comic made decades later.

Ah, but without that movie, that comic would never have been made.

 

But yeah, you are right, I should have considered it when thinking of modern culture. I was just thinking modern pop culture, which is noticeably short-lived and fleeting.

[Volt]

 

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

Ah, but so beautifully mentioned in Gates of Fire.

 

SENPAI ADB QUOTED MY POST

 

Never heard of that book. I'll have to pick it up when I'm done with the Iliad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

 

I wonder when modern culture will actually acknowledge that there were six thousand Greeks, and around a 100,000 Persians at Thermopylae.

. . . Doesn't it? I mean, the movies were just based off of a fantastical comic.

I'm pretty sure the original 1960's 300 movie wasn't based on a comic made decades later.

Ah, but without that movie, that comic would never have been made.

 

But yeah, you are right, I should have considered it when thinking of modern culture. I was just thinking modern pop culture, which is noticeably short-lived and fleeting.

 

It always irritates me how the 300 get all of the credit and all of the other Greek infantry that sacrificed themselves on the last day of combat is all but forgotten by pop culture. It's like forgetting that it wasn't just Americans at Normandy.

[Loesh]

Of course, but it happens all the time and peoples infatuation with Sparta in spite of facts doesn't bother me that much anymore. Regarding Sigismund dying to a swarm of enemies, the concession i'd make is that really my idea of warfare doesn't fit into Warhammer all that well for better or worse. Battles are very mythological and ancient in nature, where my idea of war was shaped largely from growing up in a Vietnamese family, while there are semi-modern battles like the World War 1 and 2-esque Siege of Vraks the fighting has become very old in practice.

 

Heroic last stands like Thermoplyae are much more common in the modern Warhammer 40k world, because of Space Marines being Space Marines, which is to say: Walking walls worth ten to a hundred men a piece. Their strict structure of life and remarkable endurance along with technology being so advanced has made most war they wage in the 41st millennium a throwback to ancient history, where space ships in any other setting would blast each other to bits from a distance, here they wheel in close to each other for lancing fire and boarding actions on one another because as Khayon said, ships are floating cities now and why would you destroy such a valuable prize?

 

So I suppose either is viable in the context of Space Marines being modernized Roman Legionnaire's/Medieval Knights, just depends on how it's written, my brains hardwiring into 'Death by the masses=Mutilated corpse dragged through the street' isn't precisely true, and he could still come out of that fight looking the better for it.

 

Edit: *Rubs eyes* I'm sure there was a point in all that rambling nonsense, not that I can see it. I need to stop posting late at night/early morning.

[Marshal Rohr]

Do you guys really give a :cuss about the 6,000 other guys at the Hot Gates? Of all the things to complain about, 6,000 other Greeks being there doesnt change the fact the Spartans are the main draw of their stories. I mean, its like getting mad that Saving Private Ryan was about American Rangers at Normandy, and Band of Brothers was about American paratroopers. Who'd have enjoyed 300, Saving Private Ryan, or Band of Brothers if half the screen time was exposition about how rough the Brits and Canadians have it. How dumb would it have been for an entertainment product with Captain Winters turning to one of his men during a firefight and telling them if he thinks Bastogne is bad, he should've seen the Brits at Arnhem. 

[Loesh]

Do you guys really give a about the 6,000 other guys at the Hot Gates? Of all the things to complain about, 6,000 other Greeks being there doesnt change the fact the Spartans are the main draw of their stories. I mean, its like getting mad that Saving Private Ryan was about American Rangers at Normandy, and Band of Brothers was about American paratroopers. Who'd have enjoyed 300, Saving Private Ryan, or Band of Brothers if half the screen time was exposition about how rough the Brits and Canadians have it. How dumb would it have been for an entertainment product with Captain Winters turning to one of his men during a firefight and telling them if he thinks Bastogne is bad, he should've seen the Brits at Arnhem.

Yes, and by the same token I also would like to read more stories where Space Marines interact with Imperial Guard and PDF members of the setting, I don't see that a lot and think it'd be cool just to see how they work with(And against.) one another.

But hey, different strokes for different folks.

[Volt]

Do you guys really give a about the 6,000 other guys at the Hot Gates? Of all the things to complain about, 6,000 other Greeks being there doesnt change the fact the Spartans are the main draw of their stories. I mean, its like getting mad that Saving Private Ryan was about American Rangers at Normandy, and Band of Brothers was about American paratroopers. Who'd have enjoyed 300, Saving Private Ryan, or Band of Brothers if half the screen time was exposition about how rough the Brits and Canadians have it. How dumb would it have been for an entertainment product with Captain Winters turning to one of his men during a firefight and telling them if he thinks Bastogne is bad, he should've seen the Brits at Arnhem.

Those movies are specifically about their unit. How modern culture completley forgets about the ~6,000 Greeks is like making a WWII movie and claiming only America fought on the Western Front and was completely alone in this fight. Not only would the movie be lambasted by critics and hung by historians, but it'd be burned for the rest of the time that copies still exist of it for being a movie that spits on the graves of numerous WWII Vets.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wasn't there a scene in 300 where the other Greeks fought the Persians? I distinctly remember other Greeks being in 300.

 

Also, 'Modern Culture' can't tell the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, thinks the Magna Carta is a wine, and the Iberia is in Russia, and also can't accurately define a peninsula. Normal 'pop culture' people aren't worth being bothered over, or you'll go crazy.

[Loesh]

Wasn't there a scene in 300 where the other Greeks fought the Persians? I distinctly remember other Greeks being in 300.

 

Also, 'Modern Culture' can't tell the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, thinks the Magna Carta is a wine, and the Iberia is in Russia, and also can't accurately define a peninsula. Normal 'pop culture' people aren't worth being bothered over, or you'll go crazy.

 

I believe they were called cowards and left the field if I remember correctly. It's been awhile since I watched the movie for obvious reasons.

[Lucien Eilam]

The Battle of Thermopylae is significant and remembered for the last stand after they were betrayed. They probably could have held the pass almost indefinitely if they hadn't been outflanked. On the final day, there weren't 6,000 other Greeks - most of them were retreating and, of the remainder, the Thebans surrendered, which hardly contributes to the myth-making.

 

Leaving the Thespians, whose sacrifice is featured in The 300 Spartans and Gates of Fire at least, and an indeterminate number of Spartan helots, who barely got a mention in the original sources because they were borderline slaves, but again Gates of Fire features them.

 

I'm not a fan of Frank Miller at all, but he was telling a story not making a documentary, and historical accuracy clearly isn't vital to the story he wanted to tell.

[Volt]

The Battle of Thermopylae is significant and remembered for the last stand after they were betrayed. They probably could have held the pass almost indefinitely if they hadn't been outflanked. On the final day, there weren't 6,000 other Greeks - most of them were retreating and, of the remainder, the Thebans surrendered, which hardly contributes to the myth-making.

 

Leaving the Thespians, whose sacrifice is featured in The 300 Spartans and Gates of Fire at least, and an indeterminate number of Spartan helots, who barely got a mention in the original sources because they were borderline slaves, but again Gates of Fire features them.

 

I'm not a fan of Frank Miller at all, but he was telling a story not making a documentary, and historical accuracy clearly isn't vital to the story he wanted to tell.

I'm fairly certain that most of the Greeks left because Leonidas I commanded them to, and the Thespians however stood with the Spartans to death.