The Talon Of Horus

[Balthamal]

I could be wrong and it could be something that's covered elsewhere but, as far as Khayon is concerned at least, didn't the Rubric augment the psychic powers of the survivors of the XV Legion? I know Khayon wasn't at the very top of the tree (he wasn't Magister Templi at least around the time of A Thousand Sons) but that doesn't mean he's going to be just like a regular Librarian as they are in present day M41 (the constant hypno-conditioning, restraining of powers etc etc) He was a captain of a company. It was stated in ATS that anyone attaining promotion to the first company had to have a degree of psychic mastery in addition to their regular martial record so an even greater constraint would be in place for those getting command rank. That speaks volumes to begin with. On top of that, you've got being in the Eye of Terror. In the warp itself, the wellspring of said power. Within minutes of being on Sortarius, Ahriman could manifest powers from disciplines he'd not devoted decades of study to. OK he's the most powerful Astartes psyker in the galaxy but even he was shocked at how easily he was able to do it - that also says an awful lot about what is possible.

 

I really hope Khayon appears in The Crimson King just so we have some perspective of him "back in the day" and I also hope John French's final Ahriman novel sheds some light on exactly what the Rubric did to those who weren't dusted by it all.

 

Last point, one that has been touched on several times before now. Khayon is one of the closest brothers of Abaddon. He is the master of the Black Legion's rubric marines. And it's implied the Kha'Sherhan are a significant presence among the Black Legion itself. He's a serious player. Would he be a serious player among the upper echelons if he didn't have power/skill? God no. This is Abaddon the :cuss Despoiler. Bane of the Imperium and Anointed of Chaos. Would he have in his inner circle a regular chaos marine? No. Khayon isn't powerful because ADB wanted to write a powerful character. Khayon is powerful because he's in close proximity to Abaddon, close enough to fight with him. There;ll obviously be others in the goodness of time but they're the same. Even those who have no psychic powers 

[Saphrael]

 

And another question, what is your mental process in the creation of a "culture" for a legion/company/character in your novels? Do you follow certain steps or you simply make it on the fly?

 

This is the single question I've wanted to ask ADB since I first started reading his work. For me it's the most important (though not only) thing that distinguishes his writing amongst his peers and makes me jealous of NL fans. Is there a checklist of key elements to be invented? I.e. nicknames for units ('Claws'), structure of language, catchphrases ('In midnight clad') or is it more organic?

 

My follow-up question would be: how much money do I need to donate to which charity to get ADB to do for Calibanite culture what he did for Nostraman culture.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

 

<Big snip>

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I get the angle. But you're mixing chalk and cheese and saying it all tastes terrible. I can't gloss it up or keep repeating what I and several others are saying: dragging a warship like that is a big deal... but in the context presented, it's just not that mega. It's just... not. If that makes Khayon an impossible character for you to enjoy, or ruins your understanding of 40K, then so be it. I can gladly live with that. It's nowhere near the extreme end of things 40K psykers are capable of, no matter who's writing about them. You're doing the setting itself a disservice to suggest this is some new direction lacking in integrity from the purity of what came before. 

 

<Big snip> 

 

 

 

.

 

And please don't get me wrong, I haven't mixed chalk with cheese and said "it all tastes terrible" - I gave ToH 4 of 5 stars (whatever that might mean, but which usually translates to being a good review) and said I'd buy the sequel.  Those were, and still are, sincere comments/praise on my part.  Yet one minor criticism from me (about Khayon's god-like powers,) which maybe "cost" ToH a half-star in my (meaningless) review, has been much debated here. 

 

Why might that be?  Why so much chit-chat about a minor and trivial criticism from a nobody?

 

Because it was uncalled for?  Maybe so, but only if reading the bulk of the Black Library's 40K canon is a prerequisite for enjoying ToH's story at a full 5/5 level.  (And again. a 4/5 is not a bad review.)

 

So what's the real reason?  Might it be because I offended all the author's fanboys on this forum?  The folks who expect all his works to get a 5/5 automatically?  This point was obliquely touched on in some of the posts before mine (one of which briefly wondered if all the praise posted herein was kind of syncophantic,) but was quickly dispensed with when the author's fanbase spoke up. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that ToH's author is a part of the 40K community, and I think he does a great job with 40K, but that doesn't give him a free pass for "walk on water" reviews in my book.

 

And with that I'm done here - time to go plow my way through the rest of "Damnation of Pythos," which so far is tied with "Battle For The Abyss" as being the worst book in the Horus Heresy series.  (0.5/5 stars, for anyone who's interested.)

 

Edit for grammar: 11/26/15.

[Loesh]

 

 

<Big snip>

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I get the angle. But you're mixing chalk and cheese and saying it all tastes terrible. I can't gloss it up or keep repeating what I and several others are saying: dragging a warship like that is a big deal... but in the context presented, it's just not that mega. It's just... not. If that makes Khayon an impossible character for you to enjoy, or ruins your understanding of 40K, then so be it. I can gladly live with that. It's nowhere near the extreme end of things 40K psykers are capable of, no matter who's writing about them. You're doing the setting itself a disservice to suggest this is some new direction lacking in integrity from the purity of what came before. 

 

<Big snip> 

 

 

 

.

 

And please don't get me wrong, I haven't mixed chalk with cheese and said "it all tastes terrible" - I gave ToH 4 of 5 stars (whatever that might mean, but which usually translates to being a good review) and said I'd buy the sequel.  Those were, and still are, sincere comments/praise on my part.  Yet one minor criticism from me (about Khayon's god-like powers,) which maybe "cost" ToH a half-star in my (meaningless) review, has been much debated here. 

 

Why might that be?  Why so much chit-chat about a minor and trivial criticism from a nobody?

 

Because it was it uncalled for?  Maybe so, but only if reading the bulk of the Black Library's 40K canon is a prerequisite for enjoying ToH's story at a full 5/5 level.  (And again. a 4/5 is not a bad review.)

 

So what's the real reason?  Might it be because I offended all the author's fanboys on this forum?  The folks who expect all his works to get a 5/5 automatically?  This point was obliquely touched on in some of the posts before mine (one of which briefly wondered if all the praise posted herein was kind of syncophantic,) but was quickly dispensed with when the author's fanbase spoke up. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that ToH's author is a part of the 40K community, and I think he does a great job with 40K, but that doesn't give him a free pass for "walk on water" reviews in my book.

 

And with that I'm done here - time to go plow my way through the rest of "Damnation of Pythos," which so far is tied with "Battle For The Abyss" as being the worst book in the Horus Heresy series.  (0.5/5 stars, for anyone who's interested.)

 

 

Well I mean, because the Chainsword and Bolter is a place where you can get eloquent debate. I think that more then anything is why you're getting so many replies, I mean even I wanted to contest the point and while me and ADB have similar views on lore more then once i'v noted that I don't actually like Abaddon as a character and feel that the Black Legion might be done well to be shuffled around in their positioning in lore. What ADB said might of sounded a bit snarky, but I don't think he meant anything by it.

[Wade Garrett]

I do see where some of the criticism of the higher end payer craziness is coming from.

 

Let's take the Siege of Terra. This was a head on collision of two of the most enormous armies in the history of ever, where billions died every hour.

 

It was NOT the Emperor and Horus screaming "GRAAAAAH!" And "RAAAAAH!" and flexing at each other while their spiritual auras caused half the solar system to explode just in the initial pose off.

 

Abaddon is one of the baddest motorboaters in the setting because he's a brilliant tactician who commands millions of Traitor Marines, billions of mortals, and innumerable hordes of daemons, not because he has a power level of 345,987,432,125 which triples if he unleashes Drach'yen's bankai and triples again if he employs his ultimate technique, Galaxy Burning Mangyko Sharingon no jutsu.

 

And it's like...if Malcador can teleport an entire planet into the Warp, why wasn't the battle of Terra "The Vengeful Spirit dropped out of the Warp, then the Sigilite threw Pluto at it and all the traitors died."?

 

If Russ can punch Magnus hard enough to break reality, why didn't he just use his Creation Shattering Werewolf Fists of Annihilation to wipe out the Alpha Legion fleet in Scars?

 

IS! A! PUZZLEMENT!

[Rain]

I get where you're coming from DoF, I just disagree that Khayon being able to move a ship through the warp and then a bit through space with his magical powers is that monumental of an achievement in this universe. As far as ADB and his fans, boys and otherwise, I think that he is certainly the most consistent and overall "best" BL author operating right now, and by a pretty wide margin. So of course he gets a lot of love, especially from Chaos fans that generally feel like their faction is a bunch of red shirts.

 

All that being said, criticizing his work is perfectly fine, hell I really disliked the way he did the duel with clone Horus at the end of ToH, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread. I just don't think it was "unrealistic" because the whole universe is unrealistic, and the relative power of imaginary semi-magical super soldiers is not something we can really compute. Instead I think it was a wasted opportunity to make Abaddon something more than a Chaos Marine Supervillain, and really show the difference between his leadership style as the first among equals versus the primarchs of old who stood (literally and figuratively) head and shoulders above, and apart from, their men. So my criticism is thematic moreso than one of "realism" which I, and many others in this thread, think is a bit of a silly argument to make given the 40k universe.

[Loesh]

I do see where some of the criticism of the higher end payer craziness is coming from.

 

Let's take the Siege of Terra. This was a head on collision of two of the most enormous armies in the history of ever, where billions died every hour.

 

It was NOT the Emperor and Horus screaming "GRAAAAAH!" And "RAAAAAH!" and flexing at each other while their spiritual auras caused half the solar system to explode just in the initial pose off.

 

Abaddon is one of the baddest motorboaters in the setting because he's a brilliant tactician who commands millions of Traitor Marines, billions of mortals, and innumerable hordes of daemons, not because he has a power level of 345,987,432,125 which triples if he unleashes Drach'yen's bankai and triples again if he employs his ultimate technique, Galaxy Burning Mangyko Sharingon no jutsu.

 

And it's like...if Malcador can teleport an entire planet into the Warp, why wasn't the battle of Terra "The Vengeful Spirit dropped out of the Warp, then the Sigilite threw Pluto at it and all the traitors died."?

 

If Russ can punch Magnus hard enough to break reality, why didn't he just use his Creation Shattering Werewolf Fists of Annihilation to wipe out the Alpha Legion fleet in Scars?

 

IS! A! PUZZLEMENT!

 

 

I now want to see Sigismund and Abaddon Hadouken each other.

[A D-B]

 

 

<Big snip>

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I get the angle. But you're mixing chalk and cheese and saying it all tastes terrible. I can't gloss it up or keep repeating what I and several others are saying: dragging a warship like that is a big deal... but in the context presented, it's just not that mega. It's just... not. If that makes Khayon an impossible character for you to enjoy, or ruins your understanding of 40K, then so be it. I can gladly live with that. It's nowhere near the extreme end of things 40K psykers are capable of, no matter who's writing about them. You're doing the setting itself a disservice to suggest this is some new direction lacking in integrity from the purity of what came before. 

 

<Big snip> 

 

 

 

.

 

And please don't get me wrong, I haven't mixed chalk with cheese and said "it all tastes terrible" - I gave ToH 4 of 5 stars (whatever that might mean, but which usually translates to being a good review) and said I'd buy the sequel.  Those were, and still are, sincere comments/praise on my part.  Yet one minor criticism from me (about Khayon's god-like powers,) which maybe "cost" ToH a half-star in my (meaningless) review, has been much debated here. 

 

Why might that be?  Why so much chit-chat about a minor and trivial criticism from a nobody?

 

Because it was it uncalled for?  Maybe so, but only if reading the bulk of the Black Library's 40K canon is a prerequisite for enjoying ToH's story at a full 5/5 level.  (And again. a 4/5 is not a bad review.)

 

So what's the real reason?  Might it be because I offended all the author's fanboys on this forum?  The folks who expect all his works to get a 5/5 automatically?  This point was obliquely touched on in some of the posts before mine (one of which briefly wondered if all the praise posted herein was kind of syncophantic,) but was quickly dispensed with when the author's fanbase spoke up. 

 

This is kind of the problem. Your point was much-debated largely because most reviews don't agree with it, and because those with a lot of knowledge about the setting don't really agree with your criticism that the event in question is "god-like" or a big deal. They've explained why, in detail. Now, there are plenty of other criticisms that stand, or are debated, or that I don't disagree with, etc. etc. yet this is the one I've spoken up against here and explained why the criticism is a little uninformed.

 

But in diminishing the reactions of those that disagree with you as "fanboys" or "the author's fanbase turning up", I mean... you can see how hard it is to take that seriously, right? It's toxic to debate and understanding, to diminish any correction or criticism as "No, they're biased". 

 

For the record, no one's a nobody in these debates. Everyone's voice is as valuable as any other (though, obviously, there are certain voices I'm used to taking seriously over time on specific facets of lore, but that's the same for everyone, I'm sure). 

 

When Rain says he doesn't like the last duel, I take that seriously and I'm interested in why, but I don't disagree with him - and several people don't explain how he's misunderstanding a principle of the way the setting works. That's the difference. One is a criticism based on personal opinion. The other is taking a personal view on 40K and incorrectly applying it to the way the whole setting should be viewed. It's not a god-like deal, by any stretch of the imagination, and there are plenty of contextual explanations why from smart folks who've criticised me elsewhere and in the past. 

 

Incidentally, I agree with you (again!) that if it was that unbelievable a feat, perhaps it needed better context in the novel. But, again, that's 40K. What's obvious to one soul is madness to another. Most people didn't think it was a big deal (and didn't need to "read the bulk of Black Library's canon"); they just knew it from the setting. It's always going to happen that some people disagree or didn't know something was possible before it's shown in a book. That doesn't mean the presentation is wrong, though.

[b1soul]

As far as ADB and his fans, boys and otherwise, I think that he is certainly the most consistent and overall "best" BL author operating right now, and by a pretty wide margin. 

 

I honestly think Wraight is just as good. Abnett is generally excellent as well

 

 

 

 

This is kind of the problem. Your point was much-debated largely because most reviews don't agree with it, and because those with a lot of knowledge about the setting don't really agree with your criticism that the event in question is "god-like" or a big deal. They've explained why, in detail. Now, there are plenty of other criticisms that stand, or are debated, or that I don't disagree with, etc. etc. yet this is the one I've spoken up against here and explained why the criticism is a little uninformed.

 

A lot of people agreeing with you doesn't make you right. A lot of people disagreeing with you doesn't make you wrong. 

 

A minority view isn't necessarily less valid or less informed than a majority view. A debate on the merits isn't a popularity contest. 

 

That said, Khayon does come across as very powerful. However, as one of the top Chaos dogs...I'm fine with that. 

 

Khayon is a special snowflake in the same way that Abaddon is a special snowflake. That's not necessarily a bad thing. As one of the most powerful sorcerer lords of the Black Legion, Khayon should take a dump on the average librarian. In addition to being powerful, he's also a protagonist. It's only natural for him to pull off some impressive feats within the limits of his considerable psychic power.  

 

The whole "flinging a ship like a spear" feat seems to be something requiring a lot of premeditation, concentration, and ambient Warp energy. I don't expect to see Khayon smashing enemy vessels together in a fleet engagement. 

[Son of Carnelian]

I'm just kinda startled this whole debate happened. Like, maybe it's woefully naive of me, but I don't really think that a universe as expansive and contradictory as Warhammer should have debates about the capabilities of sorcerers. It smacks of Star Wars-esque canon debates about Jedi power levels (a debate which will never end). 

 

I just look at any story presented and go: is it a good story? Did the narrative work? Did I find the characters engaging and effective? I don't particularly care for backflipping terminators, but if it lead to a great moment of characterization or dialogue, then i would have been fine with it back in the day. Talon of Horus has far more interesting problems in my perspective that I kinda touched on in an earlier post, and all of those "problems" likely stem from my own personal enjoyment of the setting (which revolves around seeing Space Marines stand around and talk about human nature and the "defenders of humanity without humanity" theme, all stuff that I love). 

 

In the end, I think the moment works because it serves a narrative purpose and has potent symbolism. The Tlaloc is a weight, a concrete burden of the past that Khayon carries with them and he only knows relief when he sends it hurtling towards their enemy NOT as a Thousand Son, but as a member of the Black Legion. That's good storytelling, people. 

[helterskelter]

Khayons only there at Abaddons convenience, coz abby cool would of killed him if he said no. Retrospectively, how important is a guy if the two choices are join me or die?

would maybe like to see him in the heresy era, just to give him a little more weight. Also not saying I dislike khayon at all, he's a bit below Argal tal/Khârn/Sevatar for me, but more novels, more face time this guy has legs.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I do see where some of the criticism of the higher end payer craziness is coming from.

Let's take the Siege of Terra. This was a head on collision of two of the most enormous armies in the history of ever, where billions died every hour.

It was NOT the Emperor and Horus screaming "GRAAAAAH!" And "RAAAAAH!" and flexing at each other while their spiritual auras caused half the solar system to explode just in the initial pose off.

Abaddon is one of the baddest motorboaters in the setting because he's a brilliant tactician who commands millions of Traitor Marines, billions of mortals, and innumerable hordes of daemons, not because he has a power level of 345,987,432,125 which triples if he unleashes Drach'yen's bankai and triples again if he employs his ultimate technique, Galaxy Burning Mangyko Sharingon no jutsu.

And it's like...if Malcador can teleport an entire planet into the Warp, why wasn't the battle of Terra "The Vengeful Spirit dropped out of the Warp, then the Sigilite threw Pluto at it and all the traitors died."?

If Russ can punch Magnus hard enough to break reality, why didn't he just use his Creation Shattering Werewolf Fists of Annihilation to wipe out the Alpha Legion fleet in Scars?

IS! A! PUZZLEMENT!

that is basically my opinion about higher end psychic powers in 40k.

[Loesh]

I think what i'm looking forward to most about the Black Legion series....besides the topknots....is something that we won't really see until the very end. That being what the Black Legion really is like when 40k rolls around, I mean it's a legion yes....but it's still something that's extremely different from it's predecessors. Being essentially THE Legion where all the other ones have combined into all the best and worst of Chaos.

 

What excites me about this I think, is just the idea of what a meeting would look like on the rare occasions that something so formal takes place. I think what people misunderstand the most about the Black Legion is that it's like the Ultramarines with a strict structure and belief system, which is cool in it's own way certainly. But the Black Legion as we know them actually encompasses the entire gambit of religious and political views, or as far as politics go in the eye. Some of them might be almost exactly like the legion they came from with the same sort of reverence for their Primarchs and ideology, others so bitter at the past that they stripped it off for the black, many more still are probably from renegade chapters over the last ten thousand years who broke off from the Imperium proper.

 

This I feel is the potential of the Black Legion series, because you're not really just writing only about the Black Legion, you're encompassing the entire spectrum of Chaos space marines with all the good, bad, ugly, and inbetween. Yet somehow they have been forged together for a common purpose in casting down the imperium, when we usually see through the eyes of a warband everyone is usually in the same legion with the same political ideas, there's conflict sure....but ultimately they are on the same side. Seeing the Children of Torment fighting side to side with the Hounds of Abaddon is a unique opportunity to showcase what warbands are more usually like in the Eye after ten thousand years, they aren't so....uniform.

[A D-B]

 

As far as ADB and his fans, boys and otherwise, I think that he is certainly the most consistent and overall "best" BL author operating right now, and by a pretty wide margin. 

 

I honestly think Wraight is just as good. Abnett is generally excellent as well

 

 

 

 

This is kind of the problem. Your point was much-debated largely because most reviews don't agree with it, and because those with a lot of knowledge about the setting don't really agree with your criticism that the event in question is "god-like" or a big deal. They've explained why, in detail. Now, there are plenty of other criticisms that stand, or are debated, or that I don't disagree with, etc. etc. yet this is the one I've spoken up against here and explained why the criticism is a little uninformed.

 

A lot of people agreeing with you doesn't make you right. A lot of people disagreeing with you doesn't make you wrong. 

 

A minority view isn't necessarily less valid or less informed than a majority view. 

 

 

Case in point: the Spice Girls were popular. Not many people would claim they were "good" or "right".

 

But in this case, no. It's a fairly definite case. I'm not right because lots of people agree with me, but it's fair to point out that a lot of people see the 40K universe that way. It's not an impossible or godly feat, either in imaginations of the overwhelming majority of readers, or the lore as presented itself. In this case, the dissenting opinion is uninformed. (Or, y;know, a little bit, at least. Disciple also noted it was the kind of thing Thousand Sons do elsewhere. Sort of nullifying some of his own point.)

 

Criticism is great. As stated above (and several times) authors love criticism. But not all of it. Not all criticism is equally valid or worthwhile.

 

Of course, the flip side to the coin is that I actually nodded along to a lot of Disciple's other criticisms, and thought "Hey, I hate that, too." It's pretty much only this one that's earned such traction, because it's tastily debatable. And I'm all good with that. 

 

I think what i'm looking forward to most about the Black Legion series....besides the topknots....is something that we won't really see until the very end. That being what the Black Legion really is like when 40k rolls around, I mean it's a legion yes....but it's still something that's extremely different from it's predecessors. Being essentially THE Legion where all the other ones have combined into all the best and worst of Chaos.

 

What excites me about this I think, is just the idea of what a meeting would look like on the rare occasions that something so formal takes place. I think what people misunderstand the most about the Black Legion is that it's like the Ultramarines with a strict structure and belief system, which is cool in it's own way certainly. But the Black Legion as we know them actually encompasses the entire gambit of religious and political views, or as far as politics go in the eye. Some of them might be almost exactly like the legion they came from with the same sort of reverence for their Primarchs and ideology, others so bitter at the past that they stripped it off for the black, many more still are probably from renegade chapters over the last ten thousand years who broke off from the Imperium proper.

 

This I feel is the potential of the Black Legion series, because you're not really just writing only about the Black Legion, you're encompassing the entire spectrum of Chaos space marines with all the good, bad, ugly, and inbetween. Yet somehow they have been forged together for a common purpose in casting down the imperium, when we usually see through the eyes of a warband everyone is usually in the same legion with the same political ideas, there's conflict sure....but ultimately they are on the same side. Seeing the Children of Torment fighting side to side with the Hounds of Abaddon is a unique opportunity to showcase what warbands are more usually like in the Eye after ten thousand years, they aren't so....uniform.

 

I know what you mean. I think it'll cover that sooner rather than later. I expect a fair bit of jumping around now the groundwork's laid.

[FashaTheDog]

You know, I kind of would like to see some of the characters from various books get official models.  Yarrick, Honsou, Cain, and Ventris all got one, so why not Nefertari?  I mean just look at Ukris' bunny ears!  Those alone deserve their own model!

[b1soul]

 

 

Case in point: the Spice Girls were popular. Not many people would claim they were "good" or "right".

 

But in this case, no. It's a fairly definite case. I'm not right because lots of people agree with me, but it's fair to point out that a lot of people see the 40K universe that way. It's not an impossible or godly feat, either in imaginations of the overwhelming majority of readers, or the lore as presented itself. In this case, the dissenting opinion is uninformed. (Or, y;know, a little bit, at least. Disciple also noted it was the kind of thing Thousand Sons do elsewhere. Sort of nullifying some of his own point.)

 

Criticism is great. As stated above (and several times) authors love criticism. But not all of it. Not all criticism is equally valid or worthwhile.

 

Of course, the flip side to the coin is that I actually nodded along to a lot of Disciple's other criticisms, and thought "Hey, I hate that, too." It's pretty much only this one that's earned such traction, because it's tastily debatable. And I'm all good with that. 

 

I've re-read the starship hurling part and frankly...it's well within the "power level" of a top Chaos sorcerer. The narration makes it clear that it's not done casually by any means. To pull it off, Khayon has to enter a near-catatonic state of vulnerability. It leaves him mentally and physically weakened to the point that he can't really take care of himself during the boarding of Fabius' ship. 

 

I'm simply pointing out that a minority opinion isn't necessarily wrong. It could definitely be wrong because of contradicting facts...but the number of people agreeing or disagreeing with an opinion isn't really evidence of the opinion's validity or invalidity. 

[Gree]

Unmarked Spoilers are ahead in the review. If you have not read the novel you may wish to skip this. Wall of Text below.

Well I finally got around to reading Talon of Horus, so I suppose I should address it while my thoughts on it are still fresh. Everything that follows is of course, my personal opinion and interpretation of the novel and the lore. It's not intended to make any sort of argument or objective statement.

I think the most unfortunate fact for me is that had this book come out two years ago, I would have probably had a much more enthusiastic reaction to this novel. However since then, I’ve grown considerably more disillusioned with both Abaddon and the Black Legion, so this book doesn’t quite have the same effect that it would have had in the past. Much of this book was not new, at least in partially due to the Black Legion supplement which contained many of the general themes of this book and some of the spoilers within it, so I had a pretty good idea of much of the content of the book.

I do like that we got to see more of a nuanced view of the Chaos Marines in general. It’s nice to see a Khorne Berzerker that’s not a stereotypical rage maniac or an Emperor’s Child that’s not a giggling hedonistic fop. Khayon himself is somebody capable of both great empathy to his loved ones and callous brutality to everyone else. Even Abaddon himself is characterized as being quite different from the aggressive meathead that he comes across in Horus Rising and Soul Hunter. Talon of Horus paints the image of Abaddon as a personable and charismatic warlord who placed great emphasis on brotherhood and unity, somebody down to earth with the warriors that follow him. Even the Rubricae appear to perk up around his presence.

As appealing as his characterization is I can’t help feel it stands to contrast…well every other single depiction we’ve seen of Abaddon, namely an aggressive and cruel tyrant who displays a fondness for Vader-style executions of his own subordinates for the slightest hint of failure. He even had a special rule in Battlefleet Gothic that had him fire on any ship that failed their morale check or something like that.

 

In addition to that, I found some plot elements to be puzzling. I could be reading this wrong, but I was rather incredulous on just how loyal Khayon’s former tutelary was to him, despite the fact that every single other tutelary the Thousand Sons had was depicted as almost gleefully turning on their former masters without exception. I could have missed this, but I was left wondering with what made Khayon so special.

As surprising at it might seem, my favourite character was not Khayon or any of his allies, but rather that of Governess Ceraxia, if only for the fact I liked her attitude of neutrality, and the fact she was non-Astartes, non-daemon warlord of note in the Eye of Terror, something that is often ignored in these types of novels in favor of focus on the Traitor Legions. A bit of a "one-scene wonder'' that.

I did note the retconning of the Black Legion’s founding. In the past editions of the fluff, it was made fairly clear that Abaddon gathered the remnants of the Sons of Horus and formed the Black Legion before destroying the Horus clone. I even looked over my old copies of the Index Astartes article to confirm that, and it was fairly explicit on the order of events. That’s not quite what happened in the novel was it? The actual Sons of Horus are arguably a minority, with a variety of forces present from other Legions.Since this novel did not cover the rest of the Sons of Horus, I can only guess the next novel would cover Abaddon gathering the rest of the Sons of Horus to his banner.

 

Another thing that I noticed is that there is no Nurgle-aligned Marine at Abaddon’s little gathering. We have a World Eater, Emperor’s Child, Thousand Son, and even other Sons of Horus, but no Death Guard or other Nurgle worshipper. It’s puzzling because otherwise we have a complete set of the Cult Legions and the ‘’vanilla’’ Chaos Legion. I’m not particularly sure why ADB did not include somebody like that at the Black Legion’s nascent beginnings. It’s not quite a criticism, but something I found odd.

Now, I do think this novel makes me despise the Black Legion. At least before I had become merely disillusioned with them. Now that I took a closer look at the Legion through Khayon’s descriptions, that has evolved into more of a scathing contempt for them and what they stand for. For those of you who do not know, what had drawn me to them was primarily the Sons of Horus, and Horus himself, but this book makes it clear that the Black Legion have very little do to with the Sons of Horus, and indeed, despise Horus. That at least, holds absolutely no interest to me. In fact it is for those very reasons I hold the Black Legion in low regard. They basically stand for everything I despise about the Traitor Legions. I don’t consider them to be a Legion either, despite Khayon’s proclamations or Abaddon’s little speech. They are to me, a mongrel collection of various renegades and marines, holding nothing of the pride or history of the true Legions. They are in my mind, simply a very large warband, the same as the Red Corsairs, but merely based in the Eye of Terror and not the Maelstrom.

Despite how much this book wants to convince me that the Black Legion and Abaddon herald the inevitable doom of the Imperium, I’m really not buying it. I don’t really believe the Traitor Legions can defeat the Imperium, nor do I believe that the 13th Black Crusade was a success for Chaos or that it did any real damage to the Imperium. Despite the words at the end, I don’t really think that Abaddon is going to make it to Terra in triumph.

I’m not really buying the idea that Horus was set up to fail, or wasn’t the real threat to the Imperium, or the "Sacrificed King’’. I find it rather difficult to believe that any of the following Chaos leaders can match or surpass the being who was commonly regarded as the greatest of the Primarchs. I don’t consider Abaddon to be anywhere near the commander or warlord Horus was. It becomes especially amusing to me when you consider the sort of memetic representation that Abaddon currently has with the general fandom.

In conclusion, I liked it less for the source matter and more for the impeccable skills of the writer in question. I'm not saying it my terrible, merely that my tastes have changed.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

You know how Abaddon's memes got developed right? They got developed by the people butthurt over chaos winning the EOT campaign.

[1ncarnadine]

 

Another thing that I noticed is that there is no Nurgle-aligned Marine at Abaddon’s little gathering. We have a World Eater, Emperor’s Child, Thousand Son, and even other Sons of Horus, but no Death Guard or other Nurgle worshipper. It’s puzzling because otherwise we have a complete set of the Cult Legions and the ‘’vanilla’’ Chaos Legion. I’m not particularly sure why ADB did not include somebody like that at the Black Legion’s nascent beginnings. It’s not quite a criticism, but something I found odd.

 

I think this was kind of addressed, when it's mentioned that no one has anything to do with the XIVth due to it being pretty hard to stay in the same room as legionaries infested with however many incredibly virulent warp-death-contagions. I was disappointed though, and I'm kind of worried if we'll see the Death Guard/any Nurglites represented well. It'd be awesome to see a plague marine type character show up and not be the "gotta spread plagues for papa and that's it" character that you tend to see. It would be interesting to see if any of the Death Guard aren't so down with Mortarion/Typhon's pact or how they feel about that whole business. Even some kind of "should have let us die" personality fits in with Nurgle's aspect of despair as well....

[Gree]

You know how Abaddon's memes got developed right? They got developed by the people butthurt over chaos winning the EOT campaign.

 

I'm pretty sure they where around before that, although I doubt either of us can give an objective overview of the fanbase at that time. I do think that this book would have benefited the Chaos fanbase more if it had come out ten or fifteen years ago, before those memes were either developed or got started. I do think at this point that the meme is simply too entrenched at this point to easily dislodged. Negative stigma surrounding a character is never something that is easily rid of, especially when it has a chance to ferment for many years. For many in the fanbase, the name ''Abaddon'' has become synonymous with failure and incompetence.

 

Now if you are making a remark about my beliefs about Abaddon, it doesn't have much to do with the meme. I have simply been convinced by the fine posters of a sci-fi forum called Spacebattles, that Abaddon did not win the 13th Black Crusade, nor has he succeeded in doing any lasting damage to the Imperium with his other Black Crusades. If it clarifies, I don't think Abaddon is necessarily incompetent or stupid, just taking on tasks far beyond his skill level. I'm sure that he was an excellent company-level commander of forces, but not necessarily the best Warmaster for Chaos. It's the Peter Principle essentially.

 

Now if it comforts you, that's just my opinion and I'm not here to convince anyone or make some sort of objective statement. As I said in the disclaimer, it's just my personal opinion and interpretation.

 

I think this was kind of addressed, when it's mentioned that no one has anything to do with the XIVth due to it being pretty hard to stay in the same room as legionaries infested with however many incredibly virulent warp-death-contagions. I was disappointed though, and I'm kind of worried if we'll see the Death Guard/any Nurglites represented well. It'd be awesome to see a plague marine type character show up and not be the "gotta spread plagues for papa and that's it" character that you tend to see. It would be interesting to see if any of the Death Guard aren't so down with Mortarion/Typhon's pact or how they feel about that whole business. Even some kind of "should have let us die" personality fits in with Nurgle's aspect of despair as well....

 

I sorta caught that yeah, but I don't think it was that well explained. I do think that it was a missed opportunity to show Abaddon successfully uniting members all four Cult Legions against a common foe, which would have further played up his role as future Warmaster.

[Loesh]

The Imperium is almost certainly doomed, I find it highly unlikely that they survive the 13th Black Crusade to it's inevitable conclusion. 

 

Not that it's anything new, it's been a core component of 40k for awhile. It's not even necessarily Abaddon doing it, he could sit everything out at this point if he really wanted, the fact that the Cadia Gate has been broken open would be enough to do the Imperium in eventually.

 

The Crimson Path is just speeding up the process.

[Gree]

Miscellaneous comments time.

 

I'm iffy on Abaddon. I understand that he needs to move beyond his portrayal in the Horus Heresy series and "Soul Hunter", but the moonshining poet with the "Now, my centuries of cunning schemes have finally maneuvered all of you into position to play your roles in my master plan"....I can see how the Abaddon of Horus Rising and the one in the Night Lords trilogy are two interpretations of the same character.

Why Wade, you want him to be that incompetent patsy don't you? The kind that has victory dangled in front of him by the Dark Gods only to be snatched away at the last moment Charlie Brown-style? After all you have made that abundantly clear in our last discussions that he not be some ''unstoppable doom warlord'' as you were so fond of saying.

 

I mean, otherwise one might think the whole ‘’Failbaddon’’ thing is a tad insulting to Chaos players, or people invested with Abaddon. Heaven forbid, if fans of the Black Legion want Abaddon to be portrayed as a powerful and charismatic warlord.

 

Somehow, I am skeptical of the idea that "This bloke in the Colonies said some less than complementary things about my New York Times best selling novel that is going to allow me to build a new wing of my house made of solid money" counts for the purposes of "ADB is now taken down a peg."

You mean like Unhappy Anchovy? After all Wade, you have such experience in that very department, as I recall so fondly from our discussions in the past.

 

A lot of people agreeing with you doesn't make you right. A lot of people disagreeing with you doesn't make you wrong.

 

A minority view isn't necessarily less valid or less informed than a majority view. A debate on the merits isn't a popularity contest.

 

On the other hand, peer pressure is a thing. A general plurality does exist. The nail that sticks up get's hammered down. If I were to walk into the Space Wolves forum right not and try to put forth the idea that ''Leman Russ sucked'' then I would probably get dogpiled in short order by posters eager to shout me down.

 

I've been on the receiving end of that enough times to know what it's like. There was this one time on a forum called Spacebattles, a staunchly pro-Imperial forum where I tried to argue the fact that Abaddon was actually a serious threat to the Imperium and the End Times were approaching.

 

The various responses ranged from polite condescension to mocking ridicule at the idea that Abaddon could actually be a serious threat to the Imperium. The forum was very much vehemently opposed to the idea that Abaddon could actually be a badass and everything I said got shouted down by the majority.

 

Alot of people disagreeing you doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but being on the receiving end of said majority is never a pleasant experience. And if you’re the only one who believes that then it doesn't to do well for your reputation in the eyes of the majority who hold a different view.

 

And on the other hand you have an Ultramarine Captain who using only a gladius kills SEVEN Word Bearers without breaking a stride (Battle for the Abyss) but because he is a loyalist this is expected, never ever to be questioned by anyone...

 

Neither is Eldrad, Tigurius or Mephiston ever questioned...

 

I wonder when my vaunted loyalist brethren will understand the notion of hypocrisy.

I am not the most well-versed in the fluff of those characters, but have they ever done anything quite on the scale of Khayon’s feat of tugging a starship for months on end? I can’t think of anything except Tigurius’s feat of melding with the Hive Mind, but even that is usually portrayed as a shrouded rumor rather than iron fact. Even that Ultramarine Captain’s feat is something that could theoretically happen on the tabletop, even if it requires and most amazing amount of luck and dice rolls.

 

Now, I don’t think what Khayon did was impossible, especially as he was portrayed as being essentially immobile and barely conscious while doing that, so it’s probably unlikely that he’ll be flinging around Titans like cheap toys while in the middle of combat.

[Loesh]

A single Psyker can mind control multiple planets if he's powerful enough, and that's while he's in real space.

 

To some Sorcerers, what Khayon did could be little more then a parlor trick.

[Gree]

A single Psyker can mind control multiple planets if he's powerful enough, and that's while he's in real space.

 

To some Sorcerers, what Khayon did could be little more then a parlor trick.

I'm not arguing that what he did was implausible or unfuffy, just the comparison to loyalist psykers strikes me as a poor comparison.

[Loesh]

 

A single Psyker can mind control multiple planets if he's powerful enough, and that's while he's in real space.

 

To some Sorcerers, what Khayon did could be little more then a parlor trick.

I'm not arguing that what he did was implausible or unfuffy, just the comparison to loyalist psykers strikes me as a poor comparison.

 

 

 

Oh no I get that, I was just reinforcing your point that what Khayon did was far from impossible. 

 

The tabletop is really a poor representation of what a Chaos Sorcerer really is and in no small part that's for balancing. It's why in the fluff I want to see more Chaos Sorcerers, bonus points if they aren't Tzeentcian, because there are so many possibilities.