Ah, the power lance

[Rasclomalum]

Saw these guys on Forgeworld and I immediately fell in love. They look classy, regal and... use power lances. I understand these are for 30k and I don't know what rules they have, (looking at 40k here) furthermore I probably won't buy them (don't like resin) but would proxy them mixing Grey Knights and SM terminators to make Slaaneshi CSM termies with power lances. 

 

Anyway, I'm thinking 4 MoS terminators with power lances and a lance-packing termie lord riding in a Land Raider. So they should get to their destination safely, and get the charge. Against MEQ they fire their combi-bolters, killing 1.509 of them before the charge. A dirge caster takes care of the overwatch problem, and they charge, killing a further 5.778 marines at I5/I6. So, 7.287 MEQ are down before the squad has been able to do anything, which on average means you have 2-3 marines left to deal with in the following turn, where you probably win. Probably an expensive way of harassing enemy troops but it seems like it could be fun. You've gotta admit, spears on terminators look regal. 

[Captain Idaho]

Power lances are actually very effective but like power axes, you should spread them amongst a unit rather than use them exclusively. The Internet works only in absolutes but actually if you have a 3-2 or 50% ratio of lances to AP2/3 dedicated weapons you'll have great success. What this does is allow you to smash opponents on a charge and still present enough of a threat in subsequent turns and if counter charged.

 

And don't forget to put the models up so we can gawk at them!

[Axagoras]

real talk on power lances, they are kinda meh, like a power sword is always s user ap 3, whle the lance is just s+1 ap 3 on charge. The only model i can see it useful on would be a white scars biker command squad since they got hit and run and would also have power axes.

[Captain Idaho]

Strength 5 is amazing and in fact is exactly the same as the power axe you've just championed. It is a very Internet, all or nothing approach which is incorrect. Sure there is merit in selecting multiples of the same type, there is also a position that you take various different power weapons to cover weakness and boost killing potential.

 

As I mentioned previously as my go to example, my Honour Guard gets 15 S5 attacks at initiative 4, which is supplemented by further attacks at initiative from the Chapter Master and the rest of the squad. If I get charged by any armour 3+ infantry then I have the Chapter Master and Champion plus banner bearer to provide more penetrative power. Most power armour units won't want to charge such a squad anyway but it's not a disaster if they do.

 

On the charge, the power lances are very effective and with a Land Raider you can get that charge the majority of the time. You won't hurt an Ork mob with power axes quickly enough to stop those mountains of dice coming your way.

 

Initiative is very effective.

[knife&fork]

I'n not sure how useful that hit and run actually is. It's not like you normally want to disengage at the end of your turn, that would just leave you open to counter charges and shooting anyway. 

If it drags on longer than that, sure. But how often does that happen and is it a situation you want to put yourself in? 

[thepowerofwar]

i believe the lance is ap 4 normally but if you assault some one then on that combat round its +1str and ap 3.

[knife&fork]

I know, I just don't see the huge benefit from a Hit and Run unit for the above reasons. At first it seems like a good match but when are you actually going to make difference or have it be superior to other power weapons? 

[Sheesh Mode]

I can see the application of a Power Lance, particularly on chosen with a Banner of Wrath. Strength 6 ap 3 attacks on the charge are no joke. What we need to consider is that assault has many different forms, tarpitting, annihilating, weakening. With the first you throw a large (prefurably fearless) squad of weak troops at an expensive enemy unit and leave them there, for the second you take a deathstar and assault enemy squads with the intention of killing them outright. This would be your answer to an enemy deathstar if necessary. With the last you look to deal serious damage to the target but avoid killing them outright so as to avoid your opponents return fire. 

 

My chosen star fits the annihilation criteria, but also fits 'weakening' when they lose models or fight an enemy mob. 

 

While I use Lightning Claws to make the most of the Banner and their reroll's to wound, I could easily fit two power lances into a squad, or even replace the claws at lower points values. We have a cornucopia of power weapon options. The sword is safe and reliable, the Maul is perfect for xenos and guardsmen, the Axe is your answer for terminators and monsterous creatures, the lance is your power weapon support.

 

It all depends on your playstyle.  

[incinerator950]

I love lances, halberds, and spears.

[knife&fork]

Of course you do.

[incinerator950]

I think I forgot the rest of what I wanted to say.

[Axagoras]

I know, I just don't see the huge benefit from a Hit and Run unit for the above reasons. At first it seems like a good match but when are you actually going to make difference or have it be superior to other power weapons? 

so you can bail out and charge again next turn... especially on a weapon that NEEDS the charge...

[knife&fork]

 

so you can bail out and charge again next turn...

 

Well duh, that's what hit n run does.

 

What I'm asking is (for the third time no less): in how many cases is this going to be desirable, or be more effective than any other PW option (including LC) considering that you're most likely looking at one round of combat with no S bonus and AP4 before you want to even use that hit n run? 

 

When you try to think of actual situations, things that could happen in the context of a real game, I can honestly not think of an instance where I'd like to have those lances above any other PW. HnR or not. Maybe if they gave an I bonus or AP2 on the charge but not as they are. 

[Captain Idaho]

 

I know, I just don't see the huge benefit from a Hit and Run unit for the above reasons. At first it seems like a good match but when are you actually going to make difference or have it be superior to other power weapons?

 

so you can bail out and charge again next turn... especially on a weapon that NEEDS the charge...

It doesn't need the charge as much as you think. Against Orks, Tau, Eldar,Tyranids, Daemons or Humans, you don't. Against Space Marines you only need the one charge and even then if you've mixed and matched the weapons in a unit you then can still make do without the charge.

[Teetengee]

The argument is not about whether power lances are good on the charge (they of course are good on the charge) the question is whether they are good enough in general to choose instead of another weapon.

On the charge the Lance is better than the Sword and against toughness STR+2 it is better than a lightning claw (and maybe lower toughness if you absolutely need to deal wounds with every attack [you can deal more wounds but your average wounds are lower], but that is not a situation you want to be in anyways.). That is true against all armour, but the axe is better than all of that against the vast majority of 2+ save units and the maul is superior against all 4+ or worse save units.

Furthermore after the charge, the lance is worse than every other power weapon (in fact it is a chain axe at that point, just a thought to keep in mind).

End result, lances may be good choices for carnifex/riptide hunting. But Power fists are probably better for that.

Mathhammer says that best power weapons are probably a mix of axes and mauls, unless you are planning on taking on large amounts of equal or lower init meq, at which point you want swords or lightning claws.

[Captain Idaho]

That's not quite right though. Against everything in the game apart from power armour, a power lance is the same as a power sword only better on the charge.

 

Against power armour you can charge and cause a lot of damage. If you have some back up weapons in a squad you also get the option to hurt power armour if it counter charges you or survives.

 

What a power lance plays to is using an Assault vehicle or some other method of delivery. If you have either you will get a solid charge and do more damage at initiative than a power sword and more penetrative power than a maul.

 

That means you take can get a powerful hit that is stacked further in your favour than if you took other weapons. Once the inevitable casualties of a counter attack come in, they are from the lance armed models first rather than other weapons, so your killing power is reduced as little as possible.

[Axagoras]

then why not take mauls, that are always s6 ap 4 and KNOCK the out of xenos usually doubling them out. mauls are also better then swords vs all saves besides 3+

[knife&fork]

And that the reason we don't see lances a lot. They only excel at breaking T3-4 units with a 3+ on the charge. Since that most often means marines you need quite a few attacks to accomplish it in one round of combat. Cheap massed power weapons on squads isn't something marines do well.

 

lances<swords/mauls<claws<axes<fists

 

 

That said lances make for some of the nicest looking scratch builds I've seen. I think there was a member of this forum that posted a custom squad of sanguinary guards using spears and shields, they looked gorgeous. 

[Captain Idaho]

Most units are T3/4. The amount of T5 units out there are in reduced numbers but S5 is still pretty good at cracking them.

 

I think you'll find that Marines do cheap power weapons rather well actually. Honour Guard are great and in many armies nowadays.

 

then why not take mauls, that are always s6 ap 4 and KNOCK the :cuss out of xenos usually doubling them out. mauls are also better then swords vs all saves besides 3+

Versatility really. The option to hurt 3+ saves is important too. Means if I come up against Bloodclaws, Crusader squads, Wraith Guard, Immortals, Bikers etc, I can hurt them without being tarpitted or worse.

[knife&fork]

Most units are T3/4. The amount of T5 units out there are in reduced numbers but S5 is still pretty good at cracking them.

 

I think you'll find that Marines do cheap power weapons rather well actually. Honour Guard are great and in many armies nowadays.

 

 

 

That's not something I'd consider as cheap. It's 175 pts minimum right? Without a delivery method. You'll do a respectable 6-7 wounds on average vs MEQ stats for a full squad on the charge, but it's not cheap.

[Captain Idaho]

It's 160pts with a Chapter Banner and does around 12 wounds on the charge including a Chapter Master, 3 power lances, a power sword and a power sword Chapter Champion.

 

Ain't too shabby.

 

And what it does is provide you with killing potential in the enemy lines, supported with a Land Raider and Drop Pod squads.

 

It's a specific style of play but one worth considering. ;)

[Teetengee]

That's not quite right though. Against everything in the game apart from power armour, a power lance is the same as a power sword only better on the charge.

 

Against power armour you can charge and cause a lot of damage. If you have some back up weapons in a squad you also get the option to hurt power armour if it counter charges you or survives.

 

What a power lance plays to is using an Assault vehicle or some other method of delivery. If you have either you will get a solid charge and do more damage at initiative than a power sword and more penetrative power than a maul.

 

That means you take can get a powerful hit that is stacked further in your favour than if you took other weapons. Once the inevitable casualties of a counter attack come in, they are from the lance armed models first rather than other weapons, so your killing power is reduced as little as possible.

Against everything in the game apart from power armour, the spear and sword are both terrible choices. Axe if it is better and maul if it is worse. More importantly, the maul/axe lose less to the spear/sword in worst case scenarios than the spear/sword lose in situations that favor the maul/axe. Additionally the optimal situations for axes and mauls are drastically more frequent than the optimal situations for spear (and to a lesser extent sword).

Let's assume you are hitting a unit with a 3+ save and WS equal to yours. (Clearly the only case where a lance should even be considered as the right choice). (Keep in mind that the maul is strictly superior after round 1 of combat)

T1-3: Spear attack is worth 1/2*5/6=5/12 wounds, maul is worth 1/2*5/6*1/3=5/36 wounds. Axe is worth as many wounds as spear but goes last.

T4: Spear attack is worth 1/2*2/3=1/3 wounds, maul is worth 1/2*5/6*1/3=5/36 wounds. Axe as above.

T5: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/2=1/4 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*2/3*1/3=1/9 wounds. Axe as above.

T6: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/3=1/6 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*1/2*1/3=1/12 wounds. Axe as above.

T7: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/6=1/12 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*1/3*1/3=1/18 wounds. Axe as above.

T8: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/6=1/12 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*1/6*1/3=1/36 wounds. Axe as above.

 

But against 2+

T1-3: Spear attack is worth 1/2*5/6*1/6=5/72 wounds, maul is worth 1/2*5/6*1/6=5/72 wounds. Axe is worth 1/2*5/6=5/12 wounds.

T4: Spear attack is worth 1/2*2/3*1/6=1/18 wounds, maul is worth 1/2*5/6*1/6=5/72 wounds. Axe is worth 1/2*2/3=1/3 wounds.

T5: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/2*1/6=1/24 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*2/3*1/6=1/18 wounds. Axe is worth 1/2*21/2=1/4 wounds. 

T6: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/3*1/6=1/36 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*1/2*1/6=1/24 wounds. Axeis worth 1/2*1/3=1/6 wounds,.

T7: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/6*1/6=1/72 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*1/3*1/6=1/36 wounds. Axeis worth 1/2*1/6=1/12 wounds. 

T8: Spear attack is worth 1/2*1/6*1/6=1/72 wounds. Maul is worth 1/2*1/6*1/6=1/72 wounds. Axeis worth 1/2*1/6=1/12 wounds.

 

Also, against 4+ or worse.

T1-3 Spear, axe, maul worth 5/12 wounds.

T4: Spear and axe worth 1/3 wounds, maul worth 5/12 wounds.

T5: Spear and axe worth 1/4 wounds, maul worth 1/3 wounds.

T6: Spear and axe worth 1/6 wounds, maul worth 1/4 wounds.

T7: Spear and axe worth 1/12 wounds, maul worth 1/6 wounds.

T8: Spear, axe, maul worth 1/12 wounds.

 

So, against 2+ saves you want axes, clearly. Against 4+ saves you want mauls.

Against MEQ, you want to have 3 times the attacks as your opponent has wounds or the mauls will still probably end up being the better choice. So, 10 (or 5 if hunting combat squads) man spear units are needed to take out a single squad a turn or stragglers there off., and that is their only good function assuming they don't take casualties and can get to combat reliably. All in all I think mauls are the real winner in the power weapon (even though the last model I made had a spear, but more for rule of cool than anything else.) Single spears aren't necessarily bad, but choosing them over a different power weapon is a suboptimal choice in almost all cases. (Keep in mind that I didn't compare lightning claws which with the shred extra attack and +1 str trade off mean that claws are also better at certain cases than spears.)

[Captain Idaho]

You math as presented is pretty unclear so I'm afraid I'm going to jump straight to your conclusion; you need 3 times the attacks than the opponent has models.

 

Um, well I have 3 Honour Guard with lances, 1 with a sword and the Champion with another sword. I also have a Chapter Master striking at initiative with the burning blade. These get 12 wounds on the charge, approximately. Against both Orks or Space Marines.

 

This is versatility. If I focused on other weapons I become specialised and thus vulnerable to the paper-rock-scissors of competitive play.

 

You said yourself that against everything apart from power armour... well that's the point. I want to hurt power armour and I want a strong charge. ;)

[Teetengee]

I'm not saying your unit won't work, I am saying that the mauls will be better in many more cases and will be almost as good at the 3+ case except when you have that large number of attacks. 5 man Honor guard with lances hunting down combat squads of MEQ is actually a decent plan. However, Power lances are by far the least versatile power weapon rather than the most.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah I agree with that. It's the overall of unit that creates versatility. I'd be against all lances just as much as any other all power weapon choices.

 

That's my position from the start. It's a weapon that boosts combat potential in a unit provided you have other avenues covered.