No Warrior Lodges in the XIIIth?

[karden00]

So...Were the noble XIIIth just too damn cool for the Lodges...Did the Word Bearers snub them because of Monarchia? Does the warrior ethos of the XIIIth just not offer a place for lodges on a psychological level? 

 

 

[Relict]

The Ultramarines were the ones the Emperor sent to punish Lorgar for violating the Imperial Truth. 

 

If Erebus and company showed up and started preaching about the benefits of warrior lodges, Our Spiritual Liege would have turned them into a red smear on the floor before running off to Daddy to tattle - "DADDY! Lorgar is at it again with the wearing silly outfits and meeting in secret stuff!" 

[blackoption]

I find it more likely that the legion's demeanour would have prevented lodges from ever forming.  The ultramarines value clear and concise doctrine, honor, integrity, and truthful openness in everything they do.  Secret meetings and rituals would be distasteful to them in my opinion.  They are known for their rational, through, and adaptive combat styles that are selective enough to minimize collateral damage. That and the fact they tend to hold individual members of the legion accountable for mistakes in a public fashion (ala Mark of Censure), secrecy for its own sake and covert meetings that hide from their does not fit their profile in my mind.  Additionally, considering the Ultramarines view on the importance of the chain of command, I also do not believe they would tolerate a structure where a senior officer could be subordinate to a line trooper.

[Conn Eremon]

I think there is room for Iron Warrior-style brotherhoods in the Ultramarines Legion, with bonds of confraternity stretching across companies, Chapters and the rank and file.

 

But I would say blackoption has the right of it in regards to the kinds of warrior lodges you are referring to. The XIII just don't have the right kind of demeanor to see those kind of gatherings gain traction.

[Kol Saresk]

Something like the Iron Warriors' "Strategies and thoughts" would seem perfect for the Ultramarines. Or something like the EC's Officers' Club.

 

But I think the biggest problem for the lodges gaining traction would have been the relationship between the Legions.

 

After all, the Word Bearers were responsible for their spread. And IIRC, KNF mentions that neither Legion wanted much to do with the other after Monarchia.

[Fire Golem]

Even if the lodges were set up in the Ultramarines, I don't see that being enough to corrupt them.

[Legatus]

According to the IA Luna Wolves, the lodges were established mainly among the Legions that were under Horus' control at the time, so the usual suspects that were likely already close to Horus. The Ultramarines were probably mainly active on the other side of the galaxy at that time.

[No Foes Remain]

I think it was in Horus Rising and Betrayal that the warrior lodges dated back in some Legions to the early crusade, and possibly the Unification Wars, and that the Word Bearers just helped them grow larger.

 

I could be wrong though....

[Marshal Rohr]

I think they were only really popular in the legions close to Horus, like Legs mentioned. For some reason though, I remember something about the lodges and the Iron Hands, but I can't remember if it's that they didn't have them or they did but weren't really important.

[Wade Garrett]

Didn't Horus Rising list Dorn and Guilliman as the Primarchs who were closest to Horus and championed his elevation in the face of Corax, Angron, Perturabo, etc griping about it?

 

Of course, in Unremembered Empire Rob never misses an opportunity (even in his own internal monologue) to state that he always knew Lupercal was a bad'un and never should have been exalted in such a way.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, its ultimately how you define "closest". Was it "closest" serving? Was it those involve in the Heresy? Was it the closest Primarchs? Was it the members of the Legions who closely supported Horus' ideals?

 

Because there were lodges in the Scars, mainly from the Terrans who served alongside the Luna Wolves, the Terrans who were supposed to join the Luna Wolves but were slotted for the Scars when the Khan was found and then the Chogorians who weren't overly fond of the Khan's methods.

 

And Know No Fear mentions that there were joint campaigns between the XIII and XVII in the years following the Heresy, but rarely did bonds of brotherhood form between them. And that is probably the biggest detriment to the lodges existing in the XIII, unless another Legion, such as the XVI was responsible for introducing them.

[Marshal Rohr]

In M2C-verse, Dorn and Guilliman are the 'Eldest Brothers' of the Primarchs. Both had interstellar empires, and both walked into their roles as Primarchs without a learning curve. Horus was the Imperium's brightest star, sure, but even he needed tutoring, as did the rest. That's why Abnett specifically said that Horus acted in a manner like a younger sibling who trying for the respect of his elders. Neither Dorn nor Guilliman were 'the best', but no one could argue that they both did exactly what they were created for without the drama that came with the other 16. I'd imagine Russ, Sanguinius, and Vulkan will all fit into this group as the 'consistent' of the Emperor's sons, since those 5 are all Sworn Brothers.

[Vesper]

Didn't Horus Rising list Dorn and Guilliman as the Primarchs who were closest to Horus and championed his elevation in the face of Corax, Angron, Perturabo, etc griping about it?

 

Of course, in Unremembered Empire Rob never misses an opportunity (even in his own internal monologue) to state that he always knew Lupercal was a bad'un and never should have been exalted in such a way.

Yeah. He could have also stated that there was no Warrior Lodge in his Legion for there are no warrior in his Legion. Only Logistics.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

In the FW HH book 3.  IT talkes about the Lodged in the Raven Guard.  They mostly died off in a  before Isstvan, but they were there.  There were members of the XIX Legion who were close to Horus.  If they had survived the battle they might have been a big problem for Corax.

[Conn Eremon]

The XIX though had a very close relationship with Horus and the Luna Wolves for the vast majority of the Great Crusade. They might as well have been XVI Legion at that time.

 

The Ultramarines, on the other hand, were at the same level of exceptional independence since the earliest days of the Great Crusade.

[Relict]

Remember: Lorgar planned the Heresy for the better part of 40 years after he discovered the Primordial Truth on Cadia. 

 

And what did he do to prepare?

 

- Had the Word Bearers put on the facade of having reformed. The worlds (conquered at an accelerated pace) they brought into compliance were seeded with Chaos cults. 

 

- Had the Word Bearers increase its recruitment and indoctrination. The Legion went from 100,000 to a number rivaling that of the Ultramarines. The few remaining Terrans were formed into separate units under Colchisian officers. Those Terrans were quietly culled. 

 

- Had the Chaplains spread the Warrior Lodges throughout the other Legions. Some, like the Salamanders and Iron Warriors, rebuffed them. Others, like the Sons of Horus, White Scars, and Raven Guard, accept them. 

 

- Had strategic locations selected. Massacre makes mention of a system that was mysterious destroyed by the Word Bearers during the Great Crusade. That system happens to be a crucial link between Ultramar and Terra. 

 

In conclusion, Lorgar knew from the start that he could not corrupt Guilliman. Therefore he had to either destroy the Ultramarines or at the very least cut them off from Terra. The betrayal at Calth, the devastation of the Shadow Crusade, and the summoning of the Ruinstorm all serve those two ends. 

 

That, ladies and gentlemen, is one magnificent bastard. 

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the Terrans being culled is somewhat false. The Terrans and others who did not want to go along with the new path the Legion was walking along were purged. But not all Terrans were culled from the Legion.

[blackoption]

He planned against Guilliman the way he would have planned against any potential threat to his conspiracy.  But remember that it was the Warmaster's rebellion.  I'll give credit that Lorgar did an admirable job in prepping the battle field for the shadow crusade... but the Warmaster's strokes made Lorgar seem do nothing but meddle in the strategic art of war.

 

Horus sent orders for Guilliman to marshal on the far side of the Imperium. Isolating the largest legion (and arguably problematic rival at the strategic level) away from his center of gravity

Horus sent Sanguinus to a personalized trap on the far side of the Imperium, isolating one of the most lethal legions (and arguably problematic political rival) from interfering.

Horus ensured legions under his banner were fulled equipped while loyalist forces were dealing with needless supply shortages.

Horus was able to twist the orders of the Space Wolves from capture and return to capture and kill Magnus...  Denying the loyalists the single largest librarium and warp lore, this created a capability gap considering Lorgar's teachings allowed for sorcery.

And the list goes on.

 

TL;DR version:  Lorgar may have been the source of the idea, but it was Horus who turned the idea of rebellion into action.  Horus completed what Lorgar attempted to start.

 

Forgive me for asking, but why does it matter if the XIIIth had lodges?  Is it a fluff related question or are you trying to build a hypothesis on something?

[Relict]

Remember who it was that set Horus up for the fall on Davin. Erebus, a Word Bearer.

 

Horus may be the Warmaster of Chaos. Lorgar was and remains the Arch-Priest of Chaos - fitting in that he loathed being a warrior in the first place. 

 

Like I said, Lorgar had 40 years to make not only "spiritual" (for the lack of a better term) but also strategic preparations. He made sure that when Horus fell and raised the flag of rebellion, he would have things like one of the largest Legions (the Word Bearers themselves), mighty ships (the Abyss-class vessels), and crippling discord within the Legions he could not corrupt (things like the Warrior Lodges and the civil war within the White Scars) on his side.