ZONKEY Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Good Afternoon, slightly odd questions, but I was just wondering is every company master a member of the inner circle or do they only select company masters that have a strong will and a grim heart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 All the Masters are members of the DW but not all are members of the IC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 previously they were all ic, but current fluff says just some, despite they all being part of the deathwing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanyr Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Circles within circles. Just because you're DW, or even a Company Master, doesn't mean you know nearly as much as others of the same rank. Only Azrael knows about Luther, and even he doesn't know about the Primarch. So when you're the 1st legion, assume you know less than the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Lacerus Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Circles within circles. Just because you're DW, or even a Company Master, doesn't mean you know nearly as much as others of the same rank. Only Azrael knows about Luther, and even he doesn't know about the Primarch. So when you're the 1st legion, assume you know less than the other guy. Unless you are unaware there is more to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 and i take it the supreme grandmaster of the dark angels is a dead mans boots roll and the former supreme grand masters don't reside within dreadnoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 The IC seems to be getting the RETCON hammer these days. Originally the a Masters knew more than the DW and then the Grand Masters knew more and then Azrael knew the most but not everything that the players do. Obviously, that has changed now to be subjective to the individual, their position and rank. I guess this deeds into the close-lipped nature of the DA and the fact that each brother will know in time. The ones who know the most are the Watchers in the Dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Yeah it's kind of funny because the Deathwing command squad that would accompany a Company Master (they all have Deathwing Honors) would presumably be a part of the Inner Circle, whatever level they would be. It's also a good point about the Watchers that GMB points out, in the codex entry the fact company master's can take a Perfidious Relic would infer that they too are a part of the inner circle. But again, circles within Circles. For the purposes of gameplay, company masters on the tabletop are members of the Inner Circle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 All the Masters are members of the DW but not all are members of the IC... Not true. "As a part of the Inner Circle, a Company Master may join his 1st Company brethren in battle, donning his Terminator armour and leading one of the most feared fighting formations in the galaxy." - C: DA, page 29 So, all Company Masters are a part of the Inner Circle, as are all Deathwing now. Company Masters will surely know more than the average Deathwing trooper though, as it is they who will ultimatley be making decisions regarding anything related to the Chapter's secret agenda. To make such command decisions, one kinda needs to know a bit more than Joe Schmoe the Deathwing trooper does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasmaspam Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 +1 to what @Shabbadoo said, as surely all Company Masters had to serve time as a DW Knight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 the sad part is that there has been at least one BL novel that has a non inner circle company master (the one with asmodai and sapphon i think). another example of gw codex and fluff clashing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 No it's deliberate obfuscation from the Inner Circle ;) ~I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasmaspam Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 the sad part is that there has been at least one BL novel that has a non inner circle company master (the one with asmodai and sapphon i think). another example of gw codex and fluff clashing <_< Yup - the recent Master of Sanctity by Mr Thorpe. A great read, but I choose to ignore most of his fluff retcons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 the sad part is that there has been at least one BL novel that has a non inner circle company master (the one with asmodai and sapphon i think). another example of gw codex and fluff clashing This may surprise you, but BL used to not be so impactful on the fluff, or be considered part of it. If anything, there has been more instances of zero coordination between codex and bl writers that this is both common, and annoying. Another wonderful product over the lack of oversight in a continuum that actively overwrites and changes itself with each book, maintaining little coherency unless authors are planning a series. This is worrysome when you have a bols rumor posted that for the Chaos dex, they will be looking at the Legions. Makes me wonder if they bother to read the things their peers write if they're paid to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 not surprised at all since i have been into the hobby for over 16 years, i have seen it all. its that clash and current changes and retcons that bother me. my most favourite game system and universe is battletech and i have been following it for longer than i have 40k (despite starting to play 40k before managing to actually play battletech) and its aproach to fluff is like a historical fact, it hapened. period. this character fought in this planet, that one killed the other, that planet was conquered by that other guy. and a 25 year old novel or campaing book is as valid today as it was then (regardelss of rules changes and they were not that many). that does not happen with gw. look at the Emperor/Horus fight. they were interrupted by a guardsman, later by a imperial fists terminator, and now it was a custodiian. the DA and SW were together when they learned of the assault on eatrh and returned together, now they are in nearly oposite sides of the galaxy (unless gw manages another plot twist). there is the plains world story that now is pointed more than ever as a allegory than closer to fact. the BA lost 95% of the first company in the original space hulk campaign, now its 95% of the whole chapter. that is what annoys me the most. like you said and i agree 100% "the lack of oversight in a continuum that actively overwrites and changes itself with each book, maintaining little coherency unless authors are planning a series." enough thread hijacking on my part, i have a few stars to organize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 I wonder how they will further change the dark angel fluff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 All the Masters are members of the DW but not all are members of the IC... Not true. "As a part of the Inner Circle, a Company Master may join his 1st Company brethren in battle, donning his Terminator armour and leading one of the most feared fighting formations in the galaxy." - C: DA, page 29 So, all Company Masters are a part of the Inner Circle, as are all Deathwing now. Company Masters will surely know more than the average Deathwing trooper though, as it is they who will ultimatley be making decisions regarding anything related to the Chapter's secret agenda. To make such command decisions, one kinda needs to know a bit more than Joe Schmoe the Deathwing trooper does. The Codex sometimes contradicts itself. Personally, I think page 21 is the most definitive section: “Rule over the Dark Angels falls to the Supreme Grand Master and his council of Grand Masters. This is sometimes referred to as the Inner Circle – an old Caliban name that has secretive meanings unknown to all but the highest ranking officers of the Unforgiven Chapters. Members of the Inner Circle include the Chapter’s Librarians, the Interrogator-Chaplains, and a small number of Company Masters, including the leaders of the 1st and 2nd Companies.” Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Dark Angels.” v1.7. Games Workshop, 2013. Emphasis mine. The most significant change to the fluff, in my humble opinion, is also the most helpful: Ravenwing Black Knights now know of the Fallen. This makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 10 is a small number compared to 1000+ of the rest of the chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Two people give contrary facts. Both are correct. Ah, GW. Ah, Dark Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 So just gonna re-awaken this post cause I have some further questions. Circles within circles is the best description I've seen so far so its safe to say that being a member of the 1st Company is your entry into the first "ring" of the Inner Circle meaning you've got the entry level version of the secret. It's also safe to assume that Black Knights know of the Fallen so they will also fit here as well as Company Masters at a minimum. Now, what about Veteran Sergeants? In the old codex's they too were members of the Deathwing. Paying for Terminator honours making them a Veteran Sergeant would also give them and their unit Stubborn as they were members of the Deathwing (3rd or 4th edition DA codex from memory). Would this have changed? Veteran status in the past was always represented by the Crux Terminus which gave them access to terminator armour and gave them the +1 Attack but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore as our Company Veterans are literally just Veterans from various squads/companies banded together for a specialised role. In past SM fluff members of the Veteran company would be put in as Veteran Sergeants in other companies and in past DA fluff this would also happen by assuming there was no TDA armour available therefore they would go back to leading a squad as a Veteran Sergeant until said space was available but they were still inducted into the Deathwing and be at that "first" ring of the Inner Circle. Would this still be the case? I've started expanding my DA which at the moment I only have Terminators but I'm in the middle of painting 3 tac squads. I wanted to model my Sergeants different in order to easily pick them out for challenges and whatever. I first thought about using the DA Veterans box but I really dislike how the robes look. I've decided to use Sternguard for them instead cause I think the tabards look way better than the robes and with the Sternguard box I get an array of combi-weapon options for magnetising goodness. I pose the Veteran Sergeant question since the Sternguard box comes with Crux Terminus shoulder pads and was thinking of using some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Circles within circles is the best description I've seen so far so its safe to say that being a member of the 1st Company is your entry into the first "ring" of the Inner Circle meaning you've got the entry level version of the secret. It's also safe to assume that Black Knights know of the Fallen so they will also fit here as well as Company Masters at a minimum. Now, what about Veteran Sergeants? In the old codex's they too were members of the Deathwing. Paying for Terminator honours making them a Veteran Sergeant would also give them and their unit Stubborn as they were members of the Deathwing (3rd or 4th edition DA codex from memory). Would this have changed? Veteran status in the past was always represented by the Crux Terminus which gave them access to terminator armour and gave them the +1 Attack but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore as our Company Veterans are literally just Veterans from various squads/companies banded together for a specialised role. In past SM fluff members of the Veteran company would be put in as Veteran Sergeants in other companies and in past DA fluff this would also happen by assuming there was no TDA armour available therefore they would go back to leading a squad as a Veteran Sergeant until said space was available but they were still inducted into the Deathwing and be at that "first" ring of the Inner Circle. Would this still be the case? The first ring of the Inner cirlce is not Black Knights. Black Knights apparently know that there are traitor Dark Angles, but not ncecessarily that some of them are The Fallen. The Deathwing do know that there are Dark Angels traitors, and know that some of them are The Fallen (i.e. they know at least some of the tale of Luther's treachery, and of Cypher). Assuming that Company Masters are members of at least the first ring of the Inner Circle (which is why Company Masters actually have the Inner Circle rule and Black Knights do not), we can assume that not only do they know of tratior Dark Agnels, but know that some of them are The Fallen. In the 3E codex, Dark Angels Veteran Sergeants had the option to be denoted as having served in the Deathwing (gaining a special game rule thereby), meaning they would be privy to knowledge of The Fallen. This was included due to the common practice among all Chapters of 1st Company veterans being seconded to other Companies to serve as Veteran Sergeants in the capacity of leading/training non-veteran units (i.e. "learn for the best" ideology). This upgrade option did not exist in the 2E Angels of Death codex (which simply assumed all Veteran Sergeants were holders of the Crux Terminatus, yet no rules benefits were granted), nor did it exist in the 4E codex, but the 4E codex did add a new unit in the form of Company Veterans. There is no indication that Company Veterans know of traitor Dark Angels whatsoever, just that their untis are comprised of the best fighters of their Company. In the 4E and current codex, being a Veteran Sergeant in no way denotes having served with the Deathwing (i.e. they are just very experienced marines and good leaders). However, it very well could be that some Veteran Sergeants actually have been secretly inducted into the Deathwing and clandestinely serve as Veteran Sergeants among the other Companies, functioning as additiaonl "eyes and ears" for the Inner Circle (though they will probably not advertise that fact by wearing a Deathwing logo or Crux Terminatus, the Dark Angels being a secretive Chapter even among themsleves). And I agree that the robes of the Dark Angels Veterans models are sub-par. Many of the bits in that kit were poorly executed. I do use them for Company Veterans, but I am using Sternguard Veterans bodies for my unit Sergeants. I like that they are a bit more low-key (and better sculpted) than the fully robed Company Veterans models, as I think the models look more suitable for the Veteran Sergeants of Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Cheers Shabbadoo! This gives me a bit more fluff direction when I start modelling Sergeant models :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 As mentioned earlier, the Codex contradicts itself in a number of places where membership in the Inner Circle is concerned. Page 19 strongly alludes to entry in the Deathwing being the first step within the Inner Circle; page 21, however, straightforwardly states that the Inner Circle includes "... the Chapter's Librarians, the Interrogator-Chaplains, and a small number of Company Masters, including the leaders of the 1st and 2nd Companies." Where Black Knights are concerned, it's true that their rules don't include Inner Circle, but page 32 of the Codex is rather firm: "Although it is known only by the company's highest ranked officers - the Company Master and his Black Knight veteran squads - the Ravenwing's primary role is to hunt down the Fallen." This, incidentally, goes hand in hand with what Master of Sanctity proposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 If we want a level of distinction between the two units to explain the rules differences, we can just assume that Black Knights know the nature of the traitors, but not necessarily all of the details (of the Fallen, the events surrouding the destruction of Caliban, the extent of the involvement of Chaos, etc.) that the Deathwing know, such that they gain the superior mental and morale fortitude to gain Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines and become Fearless (although some of that will come from training too, not just knowledge). Master of Stanctity is okay, but some of Gav's charcterization makes me roll my eyes. Though a zealot, Asmodai comes off way too much as a moron to have ever been elevated to any position of command. I can't help but imagine that his voice is the same as Cobra Commander from the old 1980's G.I. Joe cartoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I can only tell you that, while he still comes off as a somewhat illogical fanatic, his depiction in Master of Sanctity is infinitely better than his treatment in the "Warlords of the Dark Millennium" article series. The Codex certainly doesn't get into what exactly the Black Knights know about the Fallen. Master of Sanctity has new inductees into the Black Knights hear this: “Fair Caliban, the birthplace of the Lion, home world of the Legion, was destroyed not by Horus, but by Dark Angels corrupted by their own ambition, who used forbidden warp-tech in an attempt to overthrow the rightful rule of the Lion.”... “The Space Marines we hunt as Ravenwing were once Dark Angels. Their existence has been kept secret for ten thousand years and they are the greatest threat to the Chapter and all who share the gene-seed of the Lion. We call them the Fallen and until the last has been hunted down and brought to account for their sins, there can be no rest.” Excerpt From: Gav Thorpe. “Master of Sanctity.” iBooks. This is basically the information that new members of the Deathwing received in earlier material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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