Master Sheol Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 No one outside the DW knows about the Fallen including Black Knights... In the codex fluff it's stated that the Black Knights are RW members that Know all the rituals of the RW and are tested to became DW eventually... Nowhere is stated that BK know about the Fallen... Shortly, in codex DA all the units that have the Inner Circle rule knows about the Fallen, other ones do not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Ahem. As posted earlier: “Although it is known only by the company’s highest ranked officers – the Company Master and his Black Knight veteran squads – the Ravenwing’s primary role is to hunt down and capture the Fallen.” Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” v1.8. Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright. Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/oLrXI.l Again, that's from page 32 of the Codex. Nor does the fluff section of the Black Knights contradict the above section: Those who survive in the Ravenwing long enough learn to take mobile warfare to the next level. If they can pass the Seven Rites of the Raven, they will be inducted into the Black Knights, the Inner Circle of the 2nd Company. There, they will learn the real reason behind their hunt.That reads pretty direct to me. :) If you ask me, the real distinction between Deathwing and Ravenwing isn't knowledge of the Fallen, but knowledge of Luther's role. The Codex states the Ravenwing know of the Fallen, but Luther is never mentioned in any of their sections. Every time there is a mention of an initiate being told of Luther, it's in the context of someone being inducted in the Deathwing: “Only upon entering the Deathwing will a Dark Angel hear the story of Luther’s betrayal, ...” Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” v1.8. Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright. Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/oLrXI.l Same with published fiction: Master of Sanctity shows warriors inducted into the Black Knights being told that the destruction of Caliban was the fault of the Fallen, but no mention of Luther is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 It doesn't make sense to me then that the BK don't have the IC special rule... If they know about the Fallen and are the RW equivalent of the DW they should be that... Oh, wait... the codex is written by Jeremy Vetock who gave Strafing Run to the Legion main interceptor flyer... However... If BK knows about the Fallen and DW knows about Luther, what is the secret that makes the Inner Circle better than DW? That Luther is still alive and prisoner in the Rock is know only by Azrael, Ezekiel and Sapphon according to the fluff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Point of fact, only Azrael knows about Luther still being alive. What is the secret that higher-ranking members of the Inner Circle know? That's a very good question. Especially given that we know that there are several circles of initiation within the Inner Circle. I mean, at a very minimum, I imagine the Deathwing Knights, Company Masters, and Grand Masters correspond with separate levels of initiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Exactly... In the past fluff a DA learn about the Fallen only when he gets into DW and about Luther when he gets into IC... Now that RWBK knows about the Fallen and DW about Luther and there is a new Circle (DWK) I wonder what DWK and Masters know more than DW and less than Grand Masters and the Supreme Grand Master... Without considering the CoVets that knows nothing about the Fallen and Luther and can get inducted directly into the DW (not all DA become RW before being DW and this is shown by the Master not being able to take a bike) knowing about both things in a single shot... Or the PA Command Squad that can be the bodyguard of Azrael, Ezekiel, ecc and holding a revered standard or the Chapter standard without being DW knowing how much DA consider this kind of circle things (in 2nd edition codex Brother Bethor was inducted into the DW to grant him the honor to hold the sacred standards)... But the main question is... Why Vetock did wrote DA (and Tau ruining the 6th edition) just to return to WHFB??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Who knows? I'll tell you this much. I've thought that at least some element of the Ravenwing must know about the Fallen for a long, long time. I could never accept the idea that the Dark Angels had this Company whose main purpose was to hunt down the Fallen, but that they conveniently always sat back at the final moment for the Deathwing to teleport in. Just like a Battle Company requires a number of supporting assets to function as a well-rounded, independent force, so does the Inner Circle need to have a cadre of warriors who are capable of meeting all of the Hunt's challenges. By including the Black Knights, the Inner Circle gets the mobility it needs. If you ask me, though, creating the Black Knights was only half the solution. What the Codex should have done is price out the Inner Circle rule and allow any model - to include Land Speeders and even aerial units - to take the Inner Circle rule. For models that don't belong to the 1st and 2nd Companies, the player should have had the option to covertly designate the model (mark the underside of the base, perhaps?) to reflect the secretive nature of the Inner Circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 In the Third Edition codex the vet seargeants of every unit had the possibility to be DW (fearless at that time) paying +10 points... And in both 3rd Edition and 4th Edition codex the PACS were made by fearless DW members... Then there IS the stupid thing about Interrogator-Chaplains being DW and the Chaplains not... I always thought it was silly cause how can a Chaplain of a Battle Company test if the CoVets are ready to be inducted into the DW if he is not DW too??? Or even worse, RWBK know about the Fallen and the RW Chaplain (who doesn't have the RW rules even if he is member of the company) not??? Or the DW company not having a Chaplain... And the Chaplains of the 10 companies cannot take part to the briefings of the DA missions cause they could involve hunting a fallen??? This makes no sense to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I don't know about you guys, but nowadays with so many sources I just cherry pick what makes more sense to prevent my brain from overheating. Downside is that what is most logic to me may not be to the next guy, but at least keeps arguments interesting. In this case I would say it makes some sense that some Company Masters/Chaplains/Whatever don't know the secret. DA probably need strong linemen that do their duty enuncumbred by the weight of the Fallen hunt. Maybe some of those are exceptional warriors but the tests showed they would not respond well to the revelation so they are kept in ignorance. Sucks to be them I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Masters MUST know the secret cause they are picked up from,the ranks of the DWK that being DW know about the Fallen... Chaplains make no sense that are not DW cause Masters are the military leaders of the Companies while Chaplains survey the moral integrity of the battle brothers... Being the moral integrity the main thing the DA rely to judge if a battle brother is ready to enter into the DW the Chaplains should have at least the same level of knowledge of the BK... The CoVets in other way should be at the same level of knowledge of the BK and probably a separate formation too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 It doesn't make sense to me then that the BK don't have the IC special rule... If they know about the Fallen and are the RW equivalent of the DW they should be that... Oh, wait... the codex is written by Jeremy Vetock who gave Strafing Run to the Legion main interceptor flyer... However... If BK knows about the Fallen and DW knows about Luther, what is the secret that makes the Inner Circle better than DW? That Luther is still alive and prisoner in the Rock is know only by Azrael, Ezekiel and Sapphon according to the fluff... As to the differences between the Black Knights and the Deathwing, it has more to do with training. There is no "By the way. The traitors we are hunting are former Dark Angels that we have been hunting for 10,000 years, and this stain upon the Chapter's honour will remain until we get them all. That is what your job has really been about. And with that knowledge, here are your Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines and Fearless merit badges. Congratulations, and welcome to the Deathwing." going on As to the cirlces within circles, that would have to do with the level of detail. Here are some levels of detail to consider: 1. Knowing that there have been Dark Angels traitors in the Chapter's past (or even presently). 2. Knowing that a portion of the Chapter turned traitor during the Horus Heresy. 3. Knowing that some of those Horus Heresy era traitors (collectively kinown as The Fallen) are actually still alive and acitive, are being hunted by The Unforgiven, and are the reason why the Dark Angels and there sucessors are even referred to as The Unforgiven (the whole "Our treachery can not be forgiven until all of the trairos are redeemed." thing). 4. Knowing that there are many of The Fallen, and of public enemy number one- Cypher. 5. Knowing the identities of many of The Fallen. 6. Knowing of all confrimed members of The Fallen there are, and who they are. 7. Knowing exactly who is unaccounted for among the any of lost Dark Angels of Caliban, including those who assaulted the planet alongside the Priamrach, and whose fates are unknown (including no doubt incomplete records on Calibanite aspirants raised up at least Scout status, if not full battle brother status, which is a notable concern as they are likely corrupted). Then there IS the stupid thing about Interrogator-Chaplains being DW and the Chaplains not... I always thought it was silly cause how can a Chaplain of a Battle Company test if the CoVets are ready to be inducted into the DW if he is not DW too??? Or even worse, RWBK know about the Fallen and the RW Chaplain (who doesn't have the RW rules even if he is member of the company) not??? Or the DW company not having a Chaplain... And the Chaplains of the 10 companies cannot take part to the briefings of the DA missions cause they could involve hunting a fallen??? This makes no sense to me... Candidates for Chaplains are taken into the Reclusiam from the 2nd and higher Companies (Apothecary and Techmarine candidates are similarly selected), not from the Deathwing. As such, a marine can progress to become a Chaplain without ever having joined the Deathwing, or even the Black Knights. And so they might not even be aware of The Fallen (though it makes sense that the 2nd Company Chaplain would be; at least to the level of a Black Knight). And so Chaplains do not select marines for the Deathwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 shabbadoo, The problem with those examples is that Black Knights and Deathwing know items 1-3 and half of item 4 to begin with. Luther's role in the corruption of the Fallen could be considered a matter to be kept even more secret, and I'll grant you that Cypher's ability to frustrate the Dark Angels for millennia would probably restrict knowledge of him to higher ranks as well. Items 5-7, though, just don't see like the kind of thing that meaningfully separates, e.g., a Deathwing Knight from a Grand Master of the Inner Circle. I'm just making random guesses here, but I wonder if the knowledge higher-ranking rings of the Inner Circle possess has less to do with names and numbers of the Fallen (though I grant you this would be possessed by higher-ranking individuals) and more to do with what the Chapter has done in order to catch them. What is a more reasonable gauge of trust, after all? Watching a Deathwing Sergeant's reaction to being told what the Chapter did in Minoria to determine whether he should become a Deathwing Knight or not? Or revealing to that same Deathwing Sergeant names of individuals whom he has never met and whom he was already sworn to hunt down? Master Sheol, Your Chaplain dilemma might be solved by these two concepts: 1. The Dark Angels hunt for the Fallen ceaselessly. They pursue rumors, hints, etc., and they do so in an organized, concerted fashion that includes the resources and forces of their Successor Chapters, as well. I find it exceedingly difficult to imagine that the Dark Angels randomly run into Fallen on anything resembling even a rare basis. What that means is that the Chapter should be able to attack to strike forces going after the Fallen those personnel they feel will be needed: Deathwing, Ravenwing, Librararians, an Interrogator-Chaplain, etc. And even assuming this doesn't happen, we know the Inner Circle covertly seeds its members throughout the Chapter. Nestor from Angels of Darkness is one example; Veteran Sergeant Seraphiel from Ravenwing is another. I imagine there's always someone responsible for being the eyes and ears of the Inner Circle in any given task force of the Dark Angels. 2. Malcifer is introduced as "just" a Chaplain in Ravenwing, but everything about him shows that he's truly an Interrogator-Chaplain. Where the hobby is concerned, does anything prevent a player from decking out an Interrogator-Chaplain in Ravenwing colors as opposed to a normal Chaplain? Personally, I think the only failure where this is concerned is that an Interrogator Chaplain riding solo from the Ravenwing won't have Skilled Rider - and thus won't reflect someone like Malcifer, who's been fighting alongside the 2nd Company for some time (apparently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Good point about the ends to which The Unforgiven will go to accomplish the capture of any of the The Fallen and keeping knowledge of The Fallen from others. that is one thing that Master of Sanctity gets right (i.e. when one becomes Deathwing, they give up their personal honour; only the Chapter's honor is now relevant). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 We know what divides the Black Knights from the Ravenwing and the Deathwing from everyone else. We know what divides the 'Inner Circle' from the entire rest of the Legion - knowledge of the Fallen and the Legion's true goal. What we don't know are the things that divide the members of the Inner Circle - Deathwing Knights from 'generic' Deathwing, for example. The only distinction in 'levels' of knowledge, or, perhaps, trust, is that the Supreme Grand Master knows Luther is still alive. There is a possibility that the Inner Circle divides along not only knowledge but also along trust levels, perhaps two separate levels, its all well and good to know that Brother Ibrahim will do whatever is necessary to hunt the Fallen, but is he a good choice to watch his fellow Astartes in the Battle Companies? I can see that there is the generic circles of knowledge, with the lowest rung being what the Black Knights know up to what Azrael knows with a consecutive group of circles of trust to handle things. A Brother might be truthworthy enough to be a Deathwing Sergeant, but he cannot be trusted with the future of the Legion and so never trains neophytes, or is seconded to a Battle Company. The reverse might also be a true, an Astartes who is amazingly good with his men might not have the mental fortitude to even know about the Fallen, or a very limited matter. There are a lot of variables that could be in place, enough for us all to have a plausible interpretation. And on that note, I just convinced myself why a Company-Master might not be a member of the Inner Circle. Heck, he could actually just consider the Inner Circle to refer to the senior commanders and trusted Astartes scattered throughout the Chapter and on that note consider himself a member without knowing the truth. Eh, just my ramblings on the topic :) Basically, to sum up, I think there might be two circle groups - one of trustworthiness/ability and one of mental fortitude resulting in knowledge. Sapphon clearly falls into both categories, for example, he is far more competent than Asmodai with his brothers, and has the mental fortitude that Asmodai has. Knowledge, and ability to do the 'right' thing is not, I think, the be all and end all of the Inner Circle. Ability seems to play a role in it. Sure the mental fortitude to be able to survive the knowledge and do what is needed is a pre-requisite of advancement into the Inner Circle and to the top, but it no longer seems to be the only criteria, and is more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I have a pretty conservative take on this matter. Though the Codex obviously contradicts itself quite a bit, I subscribe to the line that starts off the Chapter Organization chapter: “Rule over the Dark Angels falls to the Supreme Grand Master and his council of Grand Masters. This is sometimes referred to as the Inner Circle – an old Caliban name that has secretive meanings unknown to all but the highest ranking officers of the Unforgiven Chapters.” Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/oLrXI.l I include in that list Asmodai, Ezekiel, Sapphon, a "small number of Company Masters, including the leaders of the 1st and 2nd Companies", and maybe one or two other, as of yet unnamed individuals. I consider the individuals mentioned later - the Librarians and the Interrogator-Chaplains - and the remaining Company Masters to be the trusted agents of the Inner Circle. They carry out its will vis-a-vis the forces they command, and know (more often than not) why it is what they do. By contrast, I consider the warriors of the Deathwing and the Black Knights to be individuals who know of the Inner Circle and the Fallen (the Deathwing also know of Luther), but simply carry out orders. They go where they are told to, they fight who they are told to, and that's about it. Ranging amongst those three easy tiers of trust as individuals like Apothecary Nestor and Veteran Sergeant Seraphiel: individuals who are placed throughout the Chapter to be the eyes and ears of the Inner Circle, but who aren't necessarily Grand Masters or even high-ranking within the Chapter's conventional rank structure. Where the rank-and-file members of the Chapter are concerned, including Veterans who haven't been initiated in the Deathwing, there is no Inner Circle. In fact, I take it one step farther: their Chapter Master is Commander Azrael, not Supreme Grand Master; their Company commander is Captain Balthazar, not Master Balthasar. Titles and ranks that correlate with the Calibanite Order are unknown to them. The Interrogator-Chaplains are sources of great mystery to the rank and file. By the by, while scanning through Dark Vengeance, I noticed that C.Z. Dunn has Arion, a Sergeant in the Ravenwing, mention that he learned of the Fallen when he was inducted in the Ravenwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avon Rekaes Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 From what I gleened in this thread, there seems to be a distinct difference between the Black Knights and the Deathwing: The Black Knights don't know that Chaos was involved. The version they were told about the fall of Caliban, according to the quote given from Master of Sanctity upthread, was that a portion of the legion turned traitor for "their own ambition" and used "warp-tech" to destroy the planet. Warp-tech seems like a censored way of saying "the Chaos Gods opened a rift to their hellish dimension that tore our planet apart in a firey apocalypse". This would make sense to me why they don't have Preferred Enemy: Chaos Space Marines from the Inner Circle rule. They have no idea that the Fallen actually debased themselves to the powers of Chaos. They think they're just hunting down rogue space marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The fluff and rules for all of this don't necessarily have to be aligned and we know that not everything rules-wise can possibly be as granular as the fluff probably necessitates it being. Not everything known or unknown, etc, needs to be designated by a rule for units (or characters). As for who knows what when and at what levels with what secret rites, etc, I'm actually glad we don't know. Not everything needs to be spelled out, and from what I've seen here at the B&C, the more that is spelled out, the more people want that to be the absolute concrete, inviolate statement that can never be changed (which is basically the exact opposite of how 40K fluff works), and after it is changed, people start screaming about "Heresy!" and "Retcon!" and other trivial things that make the board a less fun and interesting place to be. So I'm glad we've never been told that much and hope it stays that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Bryan Blaire... Not following the fluff to build the army profiles defies the main reason why the fluff is here... If we strip off all the fluff from 40K what is left is a sub par wargame driven more by the dice than the ability if the player... If the main goal of playing 40K is "Forging the narrative" why the DA army list doesn't reflects the fluff??? It makes no sense... Avon Reakes... Good point but the fact is that this thing is in Master of Sanctity and not in the codex fluff... If this is the main difference between RWBK and DW it should be in the codex that is the main source and not on a novel that is optional... It is like that in Silmarillion (the main source for ME fluff) wasn't reported the role of the house of Gondor in the war of the Ring, while in LOTR you can read of Aragorn and his heritage from Elendil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Sorry, Master Sheol, I'll have to just live with disagreeing with you. Not every little granular fluff detail can (or should) be reflected 100% in the rules (especially not in a game where things are often decided by rolling a d6). You can "forge a narrative" with fluff that isn't reflected in the rules. Not everyone's interpretation of the fluff is the same, nor is everyone's view of what the rules reflect fluff-wise. I'm perfectly :tu: with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Bryan... It's not some minor things... It's things like the Nephilim being shown in the fluff a powerful air superiority fighter and in the rules it's better at ground attack (and it's still mediocre in that role too)... This makes me think that GD at GW are not able to do their work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I'm only talking about the specific topic at hand, that of the Inner Circle and levels of knowledge amongst the leadership and special units of the Dark Angels/Unforgiven. Other things will need to find another thread, as they would be off-topic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avon Rekaes Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I know the Master of Sanctity stuff isn't in the Codex, but I think that's okay. In keeping with our fluff, the truth is buried in circles within circles. Sure, you bought the Codex. You know the score. But there's a level of the truth that not even the Codex will avail you, and only with dedication to seek out other sources of knowledge, on our glorious chapter's history, like lost tomes (short stories and anthologies) and esoteric holovids (audio dramas), will you find out even more of the truth. I agree that not every bit of fluff needs to tie back into the codex. It's not even that the mechanics can't be granular enough to support the fluff (with enough special rules, you can probably do a lot), it's just that at some point the smarter game design decision is to go for simplicity and elegance over complex and elaborate. My idea that the Black Knights know about the Fallen but not their tie to Chaos is just something I was able to correlate between a piece of fiction and the codex rules. I don't think that the Black Knights lack Inner Circle because of the Master of Sanctity story, or even vise versa, but I think it's a happy coincidence that you can read into if you want to develop a working model of the Whole Picture in your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Avon, even though I don't necessarily agree with your theory, I think the larger point you make is excellent. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's a great discussion (so far). Conducted very civily. I now think I need to get hold of Master of Sanctity <_<. ~I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's a great discussion (so far). Conducted very civily. I now think I need to get hold of Master of Sanctity . ~I Do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Master of Sanctity is the best novel about DA and one of the best written by Gav Thorpe... Cannot wait to Read the following cause Cypher Will be heavily involved... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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