Grey Knights origins

[Perrin]

Are you replying with "Maybe. Maybe not." to the Epimetheus bit or the second part? Would you care to expand?

That we know anything.

But we do This isn't Assassins Creed bro, not everything is a lie. Sure there are a lot of things that we can't be sure about with this topic, and a lot of things are just a theory, but we do know some things for certain.

[Kol Saresk]

Umm, don't take this wrong way, but GW has pretty much trademarked the line "Everything is a lie". Been that way since before the Xbox 360. The closest we get to certain is an eyewitness account. Which is and was and always will be dictated by personal bias, meaning that what is recounted is done so according to what that person has heard and believed they had seen.

[Perrin]

How could I take that the wrong way Kol

I know what personal bias is, thanks. But, not every event can be influenced by personal/observer bias. If I saw a car run a red light, and I think I saw a man driving, but someone else on the other side of the street thinks they saw a women driving, a car has still ran a red light.

I get the whole bias observer trope in 40k, and it's great, it's one of the things that make 40k the hobby/universe we all love, but it can't be used to explain away anything and everything. We know that the Grey Knight founders were Space Marines before they became Grey Knight founders, bias of any kind doesn't come into it, and it doesn't change what is written in the lore.

[Kol Saresk]

Once upon a time, the lore as written by an Imperial historian(as dictated by a man behind a desk who played with little toy men) said that Ultramar only ever had eight worlds. And that when the Word Bearers attacked Calth, Guilliman valiantly countered using hit and run attacks and tore them to shreds and that on their way out-system, they poisoned Calth's sun.

 

The entire 40K lore is meant to be dripping with personal bias. There is no omnipotent observer beyond us, the reader. And even we are not omnipotent of the entire background.

 

The Grey Knights 40K Codex is written by the "secret historians" of the Chapter, who are doing nothing more than recording history as how the Grey Knights remember it. Meaning, if the Grey Knights remember their Founding Masters as having previously been Astartes, then that is how the Grey Knights remember them and that is how we are introduced to them. Much as how we were introduced to Calth being the last petty act of a beaten dog, rather than a planned military objective that was achieved even in defeat.

 

So, to hijack Cormac's brainstorm, what if the Founding Masters were instead the first, true Grey Knights? But what if the Grey Knights themselves were unaware and mistook the first trainers, for being the first founders and made statues and plaques in the memory of the trainers, but then put the names of the first Grey Knights on the statues, because they misremembered? What if the truth was that Janus wasn't Janus, that the person they thought was Janus was actually a traitor who sought redemption and did so by training the person who actually was Janus?

 

Go back to Mortarion's Heart. The whole purpose of the battle was to draw Mortarion to a certain place at a certain time because they had trained Geraniton, even invented his name, for the sole purpose of slaying Mortarion. But then Geraniton died. And Kaldor Draigo had to take his place. Kaldor Draigo had to be Geraniton. True, at the moment the Grey Knights remember the truth. But what if by 50K, the history has become legend it is instead remembered that Geraniton defeated Mortarion that day? The greatest lie ever told is the truth. And the most convincing truth, is the simplest of lies.

[Hyaenidae]

50th Millennium?  50th Millennium?!?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7swa6z5bb1rn95k2o1_400.gif

 

 

 Seriously, though, either we need to reel this thread back to the 31st-ish millenium, or I'll need to move it to a suitable forum. We're straying outside of the Age of Darkness eras.  :)

[GhostMalone]

50th Millennium? 50th Millennium?!?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7swa6z5bb1rn95k2o1_400.gif

 

 

Seriously, though, either we need to reel this thread back to the 31st-ish millenium, or I'll need to move it to a suitable forum. We're straying outside of the Age of Darkness eras. :)

10000years after abaddon breaks through cadia and heads to terra kaldor speaks abaddons name and banishes him because he was really a deamon in disguise.

 

The necrons and tyranids kill rack other off and the tau and eldar and humies make an interstellar alliance and hug away all the war

[Slips]

...but thats neither Grim nor Dark, let alone Grimdark..Give me back my hopeless psuedo future-fiction-fantasy

[Kol Saresk]

Back in 30K, Lorgar becomes Janus, Morturg become Khyron and Arvida becomes their first Librarian. :rolleyes:

[Perrin]

Once upon a time, the lore as written by an Imperial historian(as dictated by a man behind a desk who played with little toy men) said that Ultramar only ever had eight worlds. And that when the Word Bearers attacked Calth, Guilliman valiantly countered using hit and run attacks and tore them to shreds and that on their way out-system, they poisoned Calth's sun.

The entire 40K lore is meant to be dripping with personal bias. There is no omnipotent observer beyond us, the reader. And even we are not omnipotent of the entire background.

The Grey Knights 40K Codex is written by the "secret historians" of the Chapter, who are doing nothing more than recording history as how the Grey Knights remember it. Meaning, if the Grey Knights remember their Founding Masters as having previously been Astartes, then that is how the Grey Knights remember them and that is how we are introduced to them. Much as how we were introduced to Calth being the last petty act of a beaten dog, rather than a planned military objective that was achieved even in defeat.

So, to hijack Cormac's brainstorm, what if the Founding Masters were instead the first, true Grey Knights? But what if the Grey Knights themselves were unaware and mistook the first trainers, for being the first founders and made statues and plaques in the memory of the trainers, but then put the names of the first Grey Knights on the statues, because they misremembered? What if the truth was that Janus wasn't Janus, that the person they thought was Janus was actually a traitor who sought redemption and did so by training the person who actually was Janus?

Go back to Mortarion's Heart. The whole purpose of the battle was to draw Mortarion to a certain place at a certain time because they had trained Geraniton, even invented his name, for the sole purpose of slaying Mortarion. But then Geraniton died. And Kaldor Draigo had to take his place. Kaldor Draigo had to be Geraniton. True, at the moment the Grey Knights remember the truth. But what if by 50K, the history has become legend it is instead remembered that Geraniton defeated Mortarion that day? The greatest lie ever told is the truth. And the most convincing truth, is the simplest of lies.

Sure, that's a good point with regards to Calth, but why would Mortarion remember Janus then? Also that whole argument doesn't really apply with Epimetheus. Parts of Pandorax are from his POV, it isn't someone 10,000 years later misremembering something. Sure his view of his own history and actions may be coloured by personal bias, but the fact remains that he remembers himself being an astartes before becoming a Grey Knight founder.

Epimetheus is the link with 30k btw, for Heathens' sanity. I am trying hard to think of something 30k to cover with the Grey Knights

Something that has just occurred to me. I do love the Omegon = Janus theory, but with all of the Grey Knight founders confirmed to be psykers does it still hold up? There's the argument that all Primarchs are psychic beings, but we haven't actually seen the use of psychic powers from all of them. I really hope that Omegon's black-op skills aren't related to psyker powers in anyway ever, that would suck.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm sure the man who just spent ten thousand years playing tic-tac-toe with himself inside a vault still remembers everything that happened in the Great Crusade with perfect clarity and his mental state is completely stable.

[MasterofMankind]

Technically speaking he was in a prolonged sus an membrane induced coma so to him I think it would be like no time has passed

[Wade Garrett]

You mean like Zso Sahaal, who came out of his sus-coma insisting that Night Haunter was a misunderstood anti-hero with a heart of gold and that he, Sahaal, had personally invented Assault Marines? ;)

[Kol Saresk]

You mean like Zso Sahaal, who came out of his sus-coma insisting that Night Haunter was a misunderstood anti-hero with a heart of gold and that he, Sahaal, had personally invented Assault Marines?

Don't forget the part where he remembered that Curze made him heir to the command of the Legion.

[incinerator950]

Umm, don't take this wrong way, but GW has pretty much trademarked the line "Everything is a lie". Been that way since before the Xbox 360. The closest we get to certain is an eyewitness account. Which is and was and always will be dictated by personal bias, meaning that what is recounted is done so according to what that person has heard and believed they had seen.

By this statement, everything is just an opinionated history account, and I can make up whatever I please.

[Hyaenidae]

 

Umm, don't take this wrong way, but GW has pretty much trademarked the line "Everything is a lie". Been that way since before the Xbox 360. The closest we get to certain is an eyewitness account. Which is and was and always will be dictated by personal bias, meaning that what is recounted is done so according to what that person has heard and believed they had seen.

By this statement, everything is just an opinionated history account, and I can make up whatever I please.

 

 

Amusingly (or not amusing, if you are hardcore about continuity), this is GW's and BL's company stance on fluff.

 

Make of that as you will.

[b1soul]

About Sevatar not turning loyalist because he's a psycho and like to torture and flay loyalists... You heard about General Butt Naked? He was a cannibal who killed children and ate their hearts and drank their blood (only one of the examples) during Liberian Civil War...he's a "pacifist" christian preacher now...And that's real life...

 

There are two issues. 

 

One issue is whether someone like Sevatar would pledge himself to the Imperium 

 

Another issue is whether the Imperium would take back a traitor of Sevatar's infamy. 

 

Your example of General Butt Naked is interesting. The guy's a preacher now...but he doesn't strike mas one who's truly "reformed" if you will. I've seen documentaries and interviews featuring him. He strikes me as full of crap. Putting on the "born again Christian" act simply because he no longer has the power to operate as a tyrannical warlord. 

 

The guy is no longer acting like a douche because he can't act like a douche in present-day Liberia and survive. Inside, this guy is likely still a self-serving, reptilian scumbag whose only concern is self-aggrandisement. He hasn't gone the way of the humble preacher. He's set himself up as more of a cult leader  surrounded by followers, many of them women. He wears a fancy suit and lives much better than the average Liberian. If Liberia were to revert to Civil War, this guy would jump at the opportunity to reassert himself as a warlord. I almost threw up when he talked about how Christ had come to him in a vision. The guy went from cannibal warlord to charlatan cult-leader. 

 

What I'm saying is that people very, very rarely do a 180 degree turn with their personalities and characters. That said, perhaps Sevatar is the rare exception. I doubt it...but even if that were the case, there's the second obstacle to overcome.

 

Why would the Imperium take back Sevatar. Do they really need him that badly? It would almost be setting breaking for the Imperium to let bygones be bygones and accept Sevatar back into the fold. Perhaps...perhaps the Imperials mind-scrub him in order to use him  as a Grey Knight? Torturing and executing him if he's ever captured would be far more in line with the Imperium's style.  

[Marshal Rohr]

I really want the other Grey Knight founders to have African warlord names. Butt Naked, Lord Humongus, Terminator, Butcher, Robert, etc

[Sabadin]

Why would the Imperium take back Sevatar. Do they really need him that badly? It would almost be setting breaking for the Imperium to let bygones be bygones and accept Sevatar back into the fold. Perhaps...

This is assuming the Imperium would even be aware, it's been made pretty obvious by now Malcador has no issues doing his own thing behind the scenes if he feels it's going to give the Loyalists better odds.

[depthcharge12]

I really want the other Grey Knight founders to have African warlord names. Butt Naked, Lord Humongus, Terminator, Butcher, Robert, etc

 

I'll have you know I have a friend named Bigus Dickus! And he has a wife too...Incontenentia....Incontentia Buttocks!!!

 

 

 

 

Ahh Monty Python...where art thou?

[Hyaenidae]

Keep it on-topic, and keep it clean.

 

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