The Red Thirst Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Sharrowkyn aside, since when has Garro been confirmed as a Grey Knights founder? Its highly alluded too that he is at least a member of the first Grey Knights, Id say Malchador would be considered the Founder of the chapter. I recommend listening to the Mortarion's Heart audio drama (scoring names in hearts aside) its actually not that bad and goes into the origins a bit. Mortarion: "Oh, noble and mighty Janus! Noble, mighty, steadfast, pious and honourable Janus–" Draigo: "Do not speak his name. You are unworthy. Janus was the first of us to stand against the forces of Chaos, and the greatest." Mortarion: "I am unworthy? I spit on the name of “Janus”. You are more like him than you could ever know... But of course, I doubt even the archives of Titan would contain the original identities of the Sigillite’s... errant angels. Names. Power. It works both ways. Guarded. Hidden. The truth of Janus’s past would shake your pitiful Chapter to its very foundations. Of that, you can be certain. Treachery, cowardice... heresy, and a brother who would willingly betray his own for the sake of some half-imagined redemption." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 ...just a thought... As the Thunder Warriors were replaced by the legions when their task was completed, may the legions astartes have been meant to be replaced by the Grey Knights? dun. Dunh! DUNH!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Sharrowkyn aside, since when has Garro been confirmed as a Grey Knights founder? Its highly alluded too that he is at least a member of the first Grey Knights, Id say Malchador would be considered the Founder of the chapter. I recommend listening to the Mortarion's Heart audio drama (scoring names in hearts aside) its actually not that bad and goes into the origins a bit. Mortarion: "Oh, noble and mighty Janus! Noble, mighty, steadfast, pious and honourable Janus–" Draigo: "Do not speak his name. You are unworthy. Janus was the first of us to stand against the forces of Chaos, and the greatest." Mortarion: "I am unworthy? I spit on the name of “Janus”. You are more like him than you could ever know... But of course, I doubt even the archives of Titan would contain the original identities of the Sigillite’s... errant angels. Names. Power. It works both ways. Guarded. Hidden. The truth of Janus’s past would shake your pitiful Chapter to its very foundations. Of that, you can be certain. Treachery, cowardice... heresy, and a brother who would willingly betray his own for the sake of some half-imagined redemption." That spoiler makes me kinda believe it was Omegon more and more...Damn you 1d4chan conspiracies! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Well, I suspect he either died on Eskrador in a Legion civil war that was covered up by his twin, or Omegon pointed out where Alpharius would be (Eskrador) to Guilliman, and let the Ultramarines do the purging. Always been my two suspicions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Sadly, with how the Alpha Legion is now, we'll never really know. And I guess thats part of the fun now isn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 If they asked Dan Abnett to write up Omegon as the founder of the Grey Knights, and Dan wrote the proof of his loyalty to the Imperium by exposing his twin to the wrath of the Ultramarines, I'd hold no fear of how the story played out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Ah, I forgot about Mortarion's Heart. I'm all about the Omegon theory though. Also Janus seems to have a reputation as a great fighter, something that isn't expressly stated about Garro. But something that a PRIMARCH would have by default If they asked Dan Abnett to write up Omegon as the founder of the Grey Knights, and Dan wrote the proof of his loyalty to the Imperium by exposing his twin to the wrath of the Ultramarines, I'd hold no fear of how the story played out. That would be the best story ever told. The feels! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 considering the Grey Knights fight the daemons while chanting a prayer about how they're the mail about the Emperor's fist, pretty sure religion is a prerequisite. Remember, they're associated with the Inquisition of all things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Which is something that might change (or has changed) soon. Apparently they work with the Ordo Malleus but, if they wanted, could operate independently. It's just that Theirs and the Ordos' goals align in nearly every case so they don't see a reason to stop associating with one another. Then again, there is the bit on GK's saying they always defer to Inquisitors as superiors....... WE SHALL SEE THIS FRIDAY (or whenever I get my Codex or if some other Frater does before me and does a Write up). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 And if you were a Primarch who was shown that only faith could fight back the darkness, and a Primarch who came from a Legion renown for taking drastic asymmetrical directions to conflict, then..... See where I'm going here? Omegon doesn't need to be religious. He just needs to convince the first generation of Grey Knights to be so. The greatest liar in the galaxy, telling the greatest lie in the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Especially true, since, as a Primarch, unless your Lorgar, He would totally be cool with the Imperial Truth and its proliferation...right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I was about to make a rebuttal that in a universe where it is a known fact that gods do exist, then faith isn't a lie. But then it hit me. Faith is the belief that god(s) exist because of the lack of empirical evidence stating otherwise. Atheism is the opposite, the belief that god(s) doesn't/don't exist because of the lack of empirical evidence proving otherwise. So in a universe such as 40K, faith and atheism are both the biggest lies that could ever be told as it is known the gods do exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 If that meant keeping the galaxy in one piece, then yes, I believe so. Omegon is the yin to Alphrius's yang. Two sides to the same coin, yet opposites. If Alpharius is willing to destroy the Imperium because of a truth, then Omegon would be willing to hold it together with a lie. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Very good point, never thought of it that way. I edited the bit about Garro being religious out of my last post seconds before you posted your reply Kol, as I quickly remembered which Chapter of warrior monks we were talking about I really want Garro to have a suitably heroic and meaningful end/legacy, but I just can't see him as a Grey Knight founder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Just a thought, the bit from Mortarion's does suggest Garro, or at least a Death Guard (how would Mortarion know about Omegon?). And the principal counter I've always seen to Garro being a GK founder is that he isn't a psyker. But what about Crysos Morturg? He's loyalist Death Guard, we know he survives Istvaan and is debriefed by someone he refers to as 'my Lords', and is a psyker. What if he is actually Janus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 The Omegon conspiracy actually makes quite a bit of sense... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Im liking the Crysos theory myself, nice one leif. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I don't think the truth about Janus that would "shake your pitiful Chapter to its very foundations" would be that they were from traitor Legions. A lot has been forgotten or hidden since the HH, and I wouldn't be surprised if no one knew that little secret, but I don't think it's that big a deal. One of the founders being a traitor Primarch that no one knew existed would definitely be a foundation shaker though. Not sure about Morturg, but why would he or Garro need redemption? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Not sure about Morturg, but why would he or Garro need redemption? Because their Legion and gene-line proved traitorous to everything they held dear? A 'cleanse the guilt of my Legion's failing with the blood of traitors' type deal? Bear in mind how Dorn's failure to protect the Emperor haunted him, I can see loyalist Traitors having a similar thing in response to not being able to prevent their Legion's corruption. Or maybe survivors guilt as most of their loyal brethren died on Istvaan III? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 There was this novella about Ferrus Manus, Feat of Iron or whatever, in The Primarchs I believe.... Ferrus was in a cave (in a vision?) and there were statues that represented his brothers. Alpharius and Omegon where represented by the ancient Roman god, Janus. Maybe it's unrelated, maybe just a coincidence with symbols. Maybe it's not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3782835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 We also have to consider the point of the Alpha Legion having stolen the Genetic Template of the Primarchs and having done...well...nothing with it in 10k Years. No Super Astartes or anything. Then we have the Grey Knights who are an "original" Space Marine Chapter, with no known Primarch...AND, beyond their skin layer Wards, Surprisingly resistant to corruption...? Sure this all comes from the changes made in Deliverance Lost(?) but hey... It makes the Alpha Legion + Omegon theory a bit more plausible... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3783042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Ah, no sir. Omegon, I suspect, may be their spiritual leader, but I also suspect that their Gene-Seed hails from that made by Arik Taranis, the last Thunder Warrior. No gene-source, a blend of multiple Astartes and Thunder Warrior genetics (including a Thousand Son), and as understood, the thunder warriors were exceptionally resilient to corruption and psychic attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3783065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Ah, no sir. Omegon, I suspect, may be their spiritual leader, but I also suspect that their Gene-Seed hails from that made by Arik Taranis, the last Thunder Warrior. No gene-source, a blend of multiple Astartes and Thunder Warrior genetics (including a Thousand Son), and as understood, the thunder warriors were exceptionally resilient to corruption and psychic attack. Heathens, I hate you for putting these ideas in my head. Now I want FW and BL to confirm them. Also you'd be a pretty good pet for FW to have, they just poke you and you just spout ideas for them to use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3783070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 We also have to consider the point of the Alpha Legion having stolen the Genetic Template of the Primarchs and having done...well...nothing with it in 10k Years. No Super Astartes or anything. Then we have the Grey Knights who are an "original" Space Marine Chapter, with no known Primarch...AND, beyond their skin layer Wards, Surprisingly resistant to corruption...? Sure this all comes from the changes made in Deliverance Lost(?) but hey... It makes the Alpha Legion + Omegon theory a bit more plausible... Remember, of the Traitor Legions, the Alpha Legion show some of the highest levels of mutation despite consistently being seen far away from places like the Eye of Terror. On the other hand, the Night Lords are seen being in the thick of the warp and yet are surprisingly pure in gene-seed with only minor, if any, mutations appearing in the average individual. If the Grey Knights came from a Traitor Legion(and may the Night Lords community forgive me for saying this), chances are it lies with the VIII rather than the XX. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3783111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Lost Legions. The answer to everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295352-grey-knights-origins/page/2/#findComment-3783121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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