Olren Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I imagine they might be simple answers, but a conversation I caught has me a bit unsure. ICs count as individual units, of their own accord. They can also join units. I also know that, when they join a unit, special rules that say "a unit that contains one or more models with this rule" are applied to both -- such as when a Warlord IC with "Fearless" joins a unit, or when an IC joins a Slow and Purposeful unit. But there are certain cases where it might be a bit more ambiguous.... A situation that came up in one of my games: I managed to snipe my opponent's SM Captain with an Orbital Bombardment (despite being both Space Marine players, I think we all forgot to give him the +4 Invul save, but that's neither here nor there...) who was attached to a command squad. I didn't manage to wipe the whole command squad, but since the IC is, under some (all?) circumstances, his own unit, did I still get First Blood (in less specific circumstances, does it count as a unit death)? The question that made me consider this issue, though, was about Blood Angels. I don't know much about them, to be honest, but they apparently have units with a special rule that makes them never scoring. If a BA player were to attach an IC without that special rule (provided it wasn't one of those "contains one or more models" rules) and then have the Character stand 3" away from the objective, would they still own it through the virtue of having a scoring IC near it, despite the unit it's presently attached to not being scoring? I suppose there's an extension to that last question: if a scoring IC attached to a non-scoring unit can control an objective, then let's say I have an HQ IC attached to a Troops unit (with Objective Secured), and that the HQ IC is the only model within 3" of the objective... supposing my opponent has a model with Objective Secured within 3" of the objective, is the objective contested by the virtue of my Troops unit being near it, even though the only model "in" that unit near the objective is actually HQ, or does my opponent get the objective since my only model contesting is HQ, regardless of what unit it's joined? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 1- IC always count as a separate unit for victory points. So do dedicated transports, by the way. It does not matter what it is attached to, when the character is removed, one whole unit has been removed. 2- I am not familiar with that rule. I would need to read it before knowing how to play it. 3- When an IC joins a unit, it is considered part of that unit. If the IC is within 3" of the objective, then the unit is within 3". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3781466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjoluemblem Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 An HQ gains the special rules (that the rulebook allows, of course) of the unit he joins, i.e. Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, etc. For the terms of the Death Co, who do not score, any ICs attached to them would be considered a part of that unit, and therefore do not score (Death Co dedicated transports Land Raiders, however...). If you were to attach the same HQ to a scoring assault squad, and have him be in coherency whilst being on the objective with no other member of the squad scoring the objective, he would indeed have ObSec as he is considered part of the assault squad, and therefore would score the objective. Does that help? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3783486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Reference 1: "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Reference 2: "The Death Company are subject to the Rage special rule. Furthermore, the Death Company never count as a scoring unit." Lacking any specific mention of an attached IC, or verbiage such as 'a unit that contains at least one model...", the rules dictate that an attached IC does NOT suffer from the Black Rage special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3783689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 1- IC always count as a separate unit for victory points. So do dedicated transports, by the way. It does not matter what it is attached to, when the character is removed, one whole unit has been removed. We've had that discussion previously. Just thought I'd chip it in, for the sake of the record. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3785168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Reference 1: "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Reference 2: "The Death Company are subject to the Rage special rule. Furthermore, the Death Company never count as a scoring unit." Lacking any specific mention of an attached IC, or verbiage such as 'a unit that contains at least one model...", the rules dictate that an attached IC does NOT suffer from the Black Rage special rule. Actually, I think you may have proved more that the IC loses Scoring, as he is part of the Unit in question. Still, this is a 5th Edition army which had not even considered the possibility that anything besides Troops would/could Score, and IC's did not Score than either. Sadly, the FAQ is silent on this issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3785299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olren Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 Ah, old editions messed ups. Makes sense. Well, I don't plan on having Death Cos anyway, and all my other questions were nicely answered, I think. ;) Thanks for the replies! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3786007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Reference 1: "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Reference 2: "The Death Company are subject to the Rage special rule. Furthermore, the Death Company never count as a scoring unit." Lacking any specific mention of an attached IC, or verbiage such as 'a unit that contains at least one model...", the rules dictate that an attached IC does NOT suffer from the Black Rage special rule. Actually, I think you may have proved more that the IC loses Scoring, as he is part of the Unit in question. Still, this is a 5th Edition army which had not even considered the possibility that anything besides Troops would/could Score, and IC's did not Score than either. Sadly, the FAQ is silent on this issue. Being attached to a Unit of Death Company Does not make the IC Death Company. If the rule wasn't specific to the unit by name, (i.e. 'This Unit' or something similar), I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Otherwise, an IC would gain access to Sternguard Special Issue Ammunition (Each time a Sternguard Veteran Squad fires...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3787079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Being attached to a Unit of Death Company Does not make the IC Death Company. If the rule wasn't specific to the unit by name, (i.e. 'This Unit' or something similar), I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Otherwise, an IC would gain access to Sternguard Special Issue Ammunition (Each time a Sternguard Veteran Squad fires...) Does it affect the models or the unit? That is the proper question to be asked. Special Issue Ammunition and Relentless affect the model. Slow and Purposeful and Outflank affect the unit. ICs joined to a Unit become part of that unit and are affected by rules that affect the unit as a whole. Black Rage specifically affects the unit. Therefore, ICs joining Death Company are denied Scoring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3787693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Special Issue Ammunition specifies Sternguard Veteran squad, where as each model is individually identified as a Veteran or Space Marine Sergeant in that squad. (I'm referencing BA SG since we're discussing DC). Unfortunately, Death Company is both the name of the unit AND the models. The same interpretation that would extend non-scoring status to an attached IC would also give them the Rage USR, as they are both contained in the Special Rule Black rage and both refer to Death Company. Additionally, this same interpretation would give attached non-BA IC's The Red Thirst as it refers to 'the entire squad' for teh apllicable units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3794097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Special Issue Ammunition specifies Sternguard Veteran squad, where as each model is individually identified as a Veteran or Space Marine Sergeant in that squad. (I'm referencing BA SG since we're discussing DC). Unfortunately, Death Company is both the name of the unit AND the models. The same interpretation that would extend non-scoring status to an attached IC would also give them the Rage USR, as they are both contained in the Special Rule Black rage and both refer to Death Company. Additionally, this same interpretation would give attached non-BA IC's The Red Thirst as it refers to 'the entire squad' for teh apllicable units. For the time being, the Special Issue Ammunition could oddly apply for Blood Angels (C:SM has it as Wargear, so wouldn't transfer, and expect this to change). I guess someone's tossing him clips if he is carrying a Bolter. But a curiouser question is, why didn't they just use "unit" where they used "squad". Squad could mean unit, but it could also only be referring to the models that are purchased as part of the squad. The rule for Black Rage specifies that it may "never count as a scoring unit". That last part is the most important piece. Squad is never mentioned. If it just said models, this wouldn't even be a discussion (and the next codex may change to that), but it is for the unit, of which, a joined IC qualifies as being part of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295382-a-few-independent-character-questions/#findComment-3794344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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