5 Imperial Knights. What DA would you kill them with?

[shabbadoo]

A buddy of mine wants to play a game against me using a force made up of five, FIVE, Imperial Knights. Two of them have the melta canon things, the other three the double battlecannon things. That comes to around 1,875 points or so, so that's what I have to work with. Ignoring any mission parameters, and just sticking to a pure Dark Angels list, what would you take so as to offer somewhat of a challenge to this war crime of an army list?

Yes, I realize that an attack wing of 11 Nephilims would be an Imperial Knight's nightmare, as their blast weapons can't target flyers and their heavy stubbers...um...don't exactly inspire fear in the Nephilim with its all-around AV 11. But I don't have any Nephilims built just yet, so I'll just have to leave that unit option out of the equation (and because it is just a bit too cheesey in this particular situation- yeah, you problaby never thought the Nephilim could ever be referred to as "cheesey", but there it is ).

And so I am thinking that I should field a pure Deathwing force with CMLs, THs & SHs, and chainfists up the wazoo. I might have to use a couple Land Raiders (godhammer pattern with multi-meltas of course) to get units up close without them just being melta blasted dead though. The melta cannon Knights will be the initial targets, as they have shooting weapons which can do very bad things even to Deathwing. Once they are brought down I might, MIGHT, be able to give the other three a run for their money with whatever I have left alive. Whadd'ya all think?

[Brother dean]

Pod a veteran squad loaded with combi meltas next to one and try not to get caught in the blast when it goes up...  Oh..  they have a chart to roll on to see how big the explosion is...  My wolfbrother rolled an Apocalyptic blast...   Ow....  

 

Attack bikes, Crusaders, Melta speeders.

[Wraith776]

I toasted a knight with just two speeders withe double multi-meltas. And I can attest to the Melta against terms. lost 6 out of 10 in one shot once :/ 

[Cyfax]

I would say getting into melee with that Str D chainsword could be problematic even for terminators?

 

I haven't actually fought Knights before, but 4 Lascannons, 10 man devastator squad and a librarian with divination is usually my solution to any armor I face (and quite effectively I must say). Give the librarian a PFG and the Knight weapons are suddenly much less frightening, and he wont be able to get in melee if you postion them in a building. That alone seems like it could deal with those knights already. Add a techmarine perhaps, to boost that cover save even further.

 

You could add a lascannon predator or so as a decoy too, they always forget about the devastators.

 

Additionally I guess I would add (attack) bikers with melta guns, should be able to avoid the knights easily and go in for the kill when ready.

[Brother dean]

The three man Bike squad you must buy to get a MM attack bike is also useful with two meltas in it...

[Spaz431]

Pyro libs. Psychic shooting doesn't allow him to set a facing, due to the rules for their shields. I've fought 4 knights and won the game due to maelstrom mission cards allowed me to get around a table faster. So my second suggestion is play the mission not tank Hunter. And if all else fails before game put a hammer on the table call it an aegis defense line and let your opponent know what it's for.

[Centurio]

I beat a pure IK army (well he had a cheap inquisitor and a 5 man strike squad) with my Ravenwing... sammael and 5 man command squad, and something like 5 bike squads (2with flamers, otherwise all meltas) with 5 multimelta attack bikes. Just concentrate melta fire and attack from multiple sides. I think it took 4 turns to wipe everything out. I think Ravenwing is especially suited to take out that type of list.

 

Edit... I think I had the FNP banner.

[Master Avoghai]

3 nephilim with lascan...

 

He wont be able to hit them with his blast weapons...

[SnakeChisler]

They don't have ignores cover so any addition to cover saves such as Techmarines & DarkShroud will help with a Long range Las squads backed with MM bikes Attack Bikes

 

You can outflank and scout stuff as well and they don't have access to searchlights so get nerfed with night fighting

 

Terminators need to be either DWK or TH/SS

 

I wouldn't bother with Land Raiders just pour all your points into either big hammers or melta  + Las + getting better cover saves

 

Thing with the bikes is there not gonna be able to shield up to both them and Las from the back

[SvenONE]

Chainfists!!  or a squad of multi-melta speeders.   You could probably jink enough and spread them out enough to mitigate blasts.

 

My shop did a sort of scenario where the Knights fought all the other big things people could bring in, Wraith Knights, Bloodthirsters, Big Bugs.  What ended up happening was 3 (of the 7) Knights blew up in the same combat after a Wraith knight blew it up, I mean EVERYONE else died, but it was still pretty hilarious.  Top 5 40k moments for sure.

[[TA]Typher]

Deathwing, but even they you'll need to run only CF, TH/SS and Deathwing Knights or you'll be tabled just by the exploding Knights.

 

That or.. find another opponent. People that want to play such unbalanced lists should have trouble finding people to play with. Not many armies can death with that kind of firepower.

[shabbadoo]

Though I did consider them, Deathwing Knights are just a bit too sacrificial in this case. One turn of Smite and then their offensive capability will be gone, and then they will be just be hanging around to be killed.  TH & SH, or CF are better overall.  Close combat does render the Imperial Knights' shields ineffective, but close combat is where they are the most dangerous (not that their shooting is garbage though).  Catch-22.

 

I can run 2,000+ points each of DW, Greenwing, or RW, so I do have a good amount of choices from those groups.  I could field 20 Devs (I have 4 lascannons, 4 MLs, and 2 MMs at my disposal) and one all lascannon Predator (that's 11 high strength shots right there).  A Fortress of Redemption (I have one of these, plus three Aegis Defense Lines, two Imperial Bastions, and three Icarus Lascannons as well) could be good too, with its missile battery (krakstorm) and an added twin-linked Icarus Lascannon (and Remote Fire).  Add a Techmarine to bump up one of its section's cover saves, plus a Darkshroud lurking behind to add Stealth to any squad there (two if I put one squad inside too), and a 3+ cover save to others nearby.  The Fortress' AV 14 is also very sturdy.  A bit pricey though.

 

You've now got me considering Typhoon/mult-melta speeders more, which would offer 2-3 threatening shots each, and they could also move to engage at different angles for the purpose of lessening the effectiveness the Knights' shields.  Their movement capabilities would also help them stay away from any advancing Knights, and I could field four of them.  Alongside a Darkshroud (which would only move and Jink for a 2+ cover save; 3+ cover save for any accompanying Speeders), four of them in two squadrons of two would be a nice flanking force of hunters to bolster any static Fortress of Redemption group.   Attack bikes with meltas/multi-meltas could work, their movement enabling them to at least match the Knights' movement, and better choose a point of attack with their weaponry.  Jink might keep them alive more too, and it takes two battle cannon/melta cannon shots to kill the attack bikes (very useful that).  Bikes/Speeders could make all the difference in achieving mission objectives too.  Hmm...so many choices.  I could run Infiltrating Scouts as Troops (ML and  meltabombs) too.

 

I just read up on Destroyer Weapons too. I was thinking they were much worse than they actually are.  Only on a 6 result do they outright kill stuff, otherwise everything at least gets an invulnerable save (if they have one).  That applies to the Catastrophic Damage from them exploding too.  Those close combat D attacks only hit half of the time too.  This makes CMLs with TH & SS termies all the more tempting (if somewhat more simple/boring than a more varied force).

[plasmaspam]

I'd say Ravenwing delivering some melta medicine are the answer. Keep it fast and mobile.

[Centurio]

The knights can outmanuever assault terminators, slaughter the non storm shield terminators, and keep in mind that you will need a 5 to glance them (iirc) . Then when they do go down you may take damage from the explosion. I wouldn't take pure Deathwing against them. I don't think pure knights is that tough of a list to deal with if you bring the right tools... I.e. anti tank weaponry and lots of it. I like ravenwing because I don't tailor lists and I can generally deal with anything with my ravenwing.

[Cod]

Do you only have the DA Codex to use? Are FW additions not allowed?

Rapier las weapons or a Sicaran could be fun too.

[TheForgottenAngel]

Um guys, Ravenwing Black Knights, their plasma and speed will wreck their rear armor

[Kilofix]

5 Knights can run the Adamantine Lance formation which allows rerolls of their 4++ Ion Shield (with the lead Senechal having 3++). If they position right, ranged will have a tough time.

 

Then in close combat, DW TDA PF will still need 5 to Glance, Smite will still need 3 to Pen and is one use, Chainfist is increadibly expensive, the Knight has the same Init 4, can Stomp for Instant Death no Invul save, and Detonate can take out your squad along with the Knight.

 

The Answer - if Allies - Melta Bomb IG Vets. Give them Demo and Fwd Sentries. Keep them spread out, run them up, go to ground if you get pie plated (Knights have no Ignores Cover). Keep them spread out when in close combat to avoid Stomp. And, as you can get 40 of them (with Demo and Fwd Sentries) per Knight - they're expendable.

[SnakeChisler]

Adamantine Lance formation is from a campaign supplement and should be used as part of the campaign

 

You'd not pull that one on me for sure dunno why you'd think he'd allow that its not even Escalation its like some of the freaky Apoc formations

[Brother dean]

 

Do you only have the DA Codex to use? Are FW additions not allowed?

Rapier las weapons or a Sicaran could be fun too.

 

We are talking about a game with 5 Superheaives.  The Knight player not allowing FW would just be dirty pool...

[Kilofix]

Adamantine Lance formation is from a campaign supplement and should be used as part of the campaign

 

You'd not pull that one on me for sure dunno why you'd think he'd allow that its not even Escalation its like some of the freaky Apoc formations

 

Not trying to be argumentative but the entry in Sanctus Reach clearly says usable for regular 40K. Its not Apoc.

[Flam]

Sheesh 5 is tough.

 

RW w/ melta guns/combimelta/bombs and M/M atk bike

M/M or Typhoon speeders

Las/ML devs behind cover, maybe ADL/PFG/Techmarine

Maybe a psyker since their are a few powers that could make a huge difference (Molten beam, Invisibility, etc)

 

Bikes and speeders aim for their open side, while the devs fire head-on or full RW works as well if not better.

 

Good luck to you!

[Grand Master Raziel]

MSU Ravenwing with as much melta as you can pack in, backed up by Annihilator Predators. 

[SnakeChisler]

So why should you accept the formation as legit in standard games, if your playing the campaign fine if your not then the opponent doesn't get the opposing formation bonuses which balance it out.

 

Is the formation in the main codex the answer is clearly no so trying to legitimize it as a codex standard is a long shot, it may be used but so can a shed load of other supplements over the years

[JeffJedi]

Annihilator Predators with Biker Techs with PFGs. Tau Longstrike bounced off one of my Razorbacks thanks to the good old PFG.

[shabbadoo]

I won't be running any Forgeworld units, just Codex: DA units.  The Fortress of Redmption is somewhat pricey.  I could just go with an Aegis Defense Line and three Icarus Lascannons for 155 points.  That leaves me with an extra 100+ points points to spend elsewhere if I take that option over the Fortress of Redemption option.  Or I could go Fortress of Redemption and add Void Shields (it takes four of them to proetect the whole thing) to make it an utter headache for him to deal with.

 

I don't know if he will be using the Adamantine Lance Formation or not.      

 

Not having used a Techmarine in a long, long while, I just noticed that Bolster Defenses cannot be used on any terrain purchased as part of your army.  So, no Techmarines required.  Drop Pod meltagun units would be good, as it would be quite possible to disembark the unit in such a way that models from it can be spread out so as to be firing on a Knight from two different facings at the same time, and only one facing can be shielded.  Could work, but at what cost?  5 Company Vets with meltas/combi-meltas (Vet. Sgt, w/meltabombs too)  in a Drop Pod runs me 180 pts.  Outflanking Ravenwing Knights with plasma talons (glance on 5, pen on a 6) are rather risky, and very pricey.  I think I will leave them out.  Multi-melta Attack Bikes are formidable, but are only accessible from Attack Squadrons, which are worse off than Black Knights.  Land Speeders will do very well in all ways, so I think they are a "must have" in this case.  Devastator Squads and terrain of some kind are also high on my list.