5 Imperial Knights. What DA would you kill them with?

[BigGumbo]

So why should you accept the formation as legit in standard games, if your playing the campaign fine if your not then the opponent doesn't get the opposing formation bonuses which balance it out.

 

Is the formation in the main codex the answer is clearly no so trying to legitimize it as a codex standard is a long shot, it may be used but so can a shed load of other supplements over the years

 

The 7th Ed rulebook makes it clear that pretty much anything goes now, subject to player agreement beforehand - there isn't even a limit on the number of detachments you can take. Formations are listed as a type of detachment for Battle Forged and Unbound armies, so they're in unless you specifically agree otherwise for a particular game.

[aura_enchanted]

Field a knight right back and use the gerantius dataslate. Couple him with melta bikers and las cannons and you will wreck shop.

 

Against other knights gerantius hits on 3's with either of his weapons, he's more mobile, has iwnd, and he has a 3++ instead of a 4++.

 

However be aware that he could knightstar using the sanctus reach triple knight formation. This gives three of his knights 4++R and hatred as long as they maintain unit cohesion and he pays literally 0 for it.

[Kilofix]

Field a knight right back and use the gerantius dataslate. Couple him with melta bikers and las cannons and you will wreck shop.

 

Against other knights gerantius hits on 3's with either of his weapons, he's more mobile, has iwnd, and he has a 3++ instead of a 4++.

 

However be aware that he could knightstar using the sanctus reach triple knight formation. This gives three of his knights 4++R and hatred as long as they maintain unit cohesion and he pays literally 0 for it.

 

That was the Adamantine Lance formation I mentioned earlier.

 

One of the Knights also gets 3+ rerollable instead of 4+ per the Knight Codex whereby if your Warlord is a Knight - it gets 3+.

 

 

If sticking with DA - what about just loading up on Land Raider (AV14) with Lascannons? Then place a forward Fortification with Tank Traps?

 

Knights don't get immobilized but they still get reduced to 6" max (3D6 pick highest with MTC) through Difficult Terrain. Then just keep that Melta Cannon away from 18" while you Las Cannon him from 48"? Knight's Str8 will still have a hard time against AV14 in cover.

[shabbadoo]

If sticking with DA - what about just loading up on Land Raider (AV14) with Lascannons? Then place a forward Fortification with Tank Traps?

 

Knights don't get immobilized but they still get reduced to 6" max (3D6 pick highest with MTC) through Difficult Terrain. Then just keep that Melta Cannon away from 18" while you Las Cannon him from 48"? Knight's Str8 will still have a hard time against AV14 in cover.

 

Okay, that is some useful information I didn't pick up on.  Anything that slows him down is a good thing, and I have plenty of tank traps.  The thermal cannons do not conern me too much so far as any Fortifictions I might buy are concerned (especially if I put Void Sheilds on them).  He has two Knights with thermal cannons, and they are definitely going to get targeted first.  I've thought about godhammer Land Raiders, but I could get two Predator Annihilators fully loaded with lascannnons for about the same cost as one land Raider.  That is potentially three times the lascannon firepower for the same price, and he has to kill two targets as well.  Still, I only have one Predator Annihilator built and ready to go.  Mabye I should build the other one...

[Kilofix]

Cool - make sure you stay in Cover, Knights don't Ignore Cover with their shooting.

 

Also, not sure if you can proxy FW models but the FW Whirlwind Scorpius does Str 8, AP 3 Barrage D3+1 Blast. Barrage always hits vehicles on their Side Armor (problem with that Ion Shield?). You can't get an Explode but you can knock a few HPs off on 4+.

 

Lastly, have you thought about Blinding the Knights to mitigate some of their shooting?

[shabbadoo]

LOL!  Blinded Knights!  That is hillarious, namely as it legitimately works under the rules.  But, there isn't really any long range weapon with that ability, and I want to stay at range for the most part. The Dark Talon could safely emplyoy its rift cannon with impugnity, but that is a chunk of points for a small blast effect that won't even work most of the time.

 

I will *ONLY* be using Codex: Dark Angels untis, plus any Fortifitions from Stronghold Assault.  I might field one Nephilim, just to screw with him, and it will come screaming in opposite of the Land Speeders + Dark shroud.  The movment and weapon ranges of thsoe groups should have me able to cross shots at unshielded facings, plus he'll still have to consider straight-on shots from my firebase.  I think this will be the best tactic to damage him/keep him wary.  Now I need to think more about other units and taking objectives.

[Space Truckin]

This would make an excellent battle report!

 

 

 

 

Err I mean we are going to get a battle report aren't we? ;)

[Kilofix]

Btw - I just played a 2,000 point game with 3 Knight Titans (plus IG Vets, Artillery and Anti-Air) vs Dark Angels pure Deathwing. It was a friendly game and we wanted to see how it would turn out.

 

Belial + 9 Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Terminators - killed all 3 of my Knights in close combat while losing only 4 TDAs. He was lucky though in rolling 3++ Invuls, I only got 2 rolls of 6s on all the D-Weapon / Stomp attacks I made tonight, and all 3 Catasthropic Kabooms Scattered out of range.

 

In terms of what happened - he Deep Struck behind me. My 3 Knights were close together for Adamantine Lance. I fired Melta, Battle Cannon x 2, Battle Cannon x 2, and a bunch of Heavy Stubber but only killed 1 TDA. Then I Charged (thinking I would kill everything going first at Init 4), but only killed another 2 TDA in close combat at Init 4, then he killed 2 Knights (!!) at Init 1, I failed to kill anything with Stomps, then next turn I killed another TDA, and then he killed my remaining Knight.

 

I had bad luck but it does show that it can be done.

 

Also, TH / SS clearly does better than Deathwing Knights.

[shabbadoo]

This would make an excellent battle report!

Err I mean we are going to get a battle report aren't we?

Yes, I will probably write it up. Like Kilofix and his friend, I am curious to see how things will turn out. His three Knight Paladins and two Knight Errants come to 1,865 points. Here is one army list I am thinking of running:

HQ

Librarian: Level 1 (Divination), force staff

Techmarine: power field generator

TROOPS

(10) Tactical Squad: Sgt. w/ meltabombs; missile launcher, meltagun

(10) Tactical Squad: Sgt. w/ meltabombs; missile launcher, meltagun

FAST ATTACK

(2) Ravenwing Support Squadron: 2 x typhoon launcher & multi-melta

(2) Ravenwing Support Squadron: 2 x typhoon launcher & multi-melta

Ravenwing Darkshroud: assault cannon

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Annihilator: twin-linked lascannon turret, lascannon sponsons.

(10) Devastator Squad: 2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers

(10) Devastator Squad: 2 lascannons, 2 missile launchers

FORTIFICATIONS

Fortress of Redemption: twin-linked icarus lascannon, krakstorm missiles, 2 sections of tank traps (12" total)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1,865 points

I'll have to double check those points, but I think I am on the money.

Anyways, that is one option for a more varied force. The Fortress of Redemption, the Predator Annihilator, and the Devastator Squads are the anchor. The Tactical Squads are forward units (not too forward mind you) that will shelter in terrain/behind tank traps, their goal being to harass, misdirect, and potentially achieve objectives. The Librarian is really there to use Prescience as he is able, and because I need an HQ for this Battle-Forged Army. The Techamarine is there to protect what he can with his powerfield (probably the icarus lascannon, the building section it is on, and the Predator Annihilator). The Ravenwing element is a flanking force aimed at making the Knights choose what facing they will put their ion shields on, However, they also represent a very serious threat, fielding a total of twelve Strenght 8 shots all on their own. In total, the entire force can potentially put out 27 mid-to-long-range Strength 8 or 9 anti-armor shots per turn. This is different from the lists I normally play, but it looks like it would be fun to try out against this very out-of-the-ordinary foe.

My other option is pure Deathwing, although running 14 Venerable Dreadnoughts (accompanied by a Techmarine with a powerfield and a few servitors) sounds fun too. If I had that many Dreadnought models, I would seriously be tempted to do the latter!

[Garath]

Hq: Sammael on Sableclaw

 

Troops:

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM 

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM  

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 

 Fill the rest of the army with whatever you want - you will not need it anyway. 

 

  Deploy on 12" line .Scout move forward.  If you go first - move 12"  fire everything and shake hands shortly after!

 

  18 melta shots and 6 MM shots.

 

  If you go second, jink and assault with melta bombs.  

 

  Anyway, I don't see those knights lasting more then 2 turns.

[Kilofix]

Hq: Sammael on Sableclaw

 

Troops:

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM 

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM  

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 3 bikes, 2 meltas, combi melta ,melta bombs, AB with MM

 

 Fill the rest of the army with whatever you want - you will not need it anyway. 

 

  Deploy on 12" line .Scout move forward.  If you go first - move 12"  fire everything and shake hands shortly after!

 

  18 melta shots and 6 MM shots.

 

  If you go second, jink and assault with melta bombs.  

 

  Anyway, I don't see those knights lasting more then 2 turns.

 

Actuall, building on that idea - a bunch of Land Speeders with Multi-Melta might also do it.

 

With Fast, 12" move and 12" Melta range, keep them spaced out and at most, a Knight can shoot 1 or Charge one.

 

And, if for some reason, they don't destroy it in Close Combat, they don't get stuck in, so you can still shoot at the Knight with the others.

[Garath]

Yes, a bunch of LS might do the trick too.

[shabbadoo]

The only thing is, with your strategy, if he goes first he will not only shoot the crap out of the units, but charge them and stomp them dead. Yeah, we'll be shaking hands all right, but not with the Ravenwing as the victor. Also, that many melta shots is not going to drop stuff as easily as you think. Shield saves, most of the shots not being within range to use the Melta rule, etc. So, it will be 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 get through the shields, and those will mostly be Str 8 + 1d6 vs. AV 13 (some vs. AV 12 perhaps). Even if I went first, that sounds like recipe for killing one Knight...and then getting my arse handed to me because I parked on his doorstep. Then it will be 6 battle cannon shots, 2 thermal cannon shots, 4 Hammer of Wrath hits, 16 D attacks, and 12 small blast Stomp attacks in return. That's if I were to go first. if he were to go first, and my units had to Jink, then the shooting turns into 2 hits that actually get to roll against AV....if everyone survived to even give those odds...and then I get mauled by 5 Knights instead of 4. So, your list is not exactly the "easy button" list that you make it out to be. Also, Sammael is a waste of more than 10% of the army total. Better to simply run this sort of Ravenwing group as an Unbound list and use as many 3 bike + attack bike untis in 1,865 points as possible. Playing a Ravenwing list as an "up the gut" type of army versus this opponent is probably not the best of ideas, unless done in a certain way. I think that could take down the lot of them without too much trouble, as there would be 11 of those units in 1,865 points! As long as the Hit And Run rolls don't turn out too bad, there would be all sorts of close range melta love going on there.

But, considering what I have built (I have only about a third of that built to a playable level, but I do have lots of Deathwing ready to rock) my plan is instead to shoot them up from range, feeding units to them in assault as necessary to bleed them/slow them down/set them up to be shot at some more. I think I will have a good chance that way, whether I go first or second.

[lhg033]

no idea on points but I would be looking at trying to include:

 

libby w/ pfg and/or belial as HQ

 

at least a couple of Deathwing squads with cyclones. Deathwing assault rear armour/non shielded facing for twinlinked krak missiles and a few shields tanking. make sure to land out of charge range. he then has to choose whether to switch which side has the shield and/or change direction to deal with the unit(s) to the side or behind him taking the heat off something else.

 

tacticals with melta/multimeltas in pods or lascannons with lasbacks

 

3 x 10 man greenwing lascannon dev squads combat squadded and split up as 2x lascannons/3 bolters spread out and shooting from range on his front facing.

spread out and use cover to minimise the impact of his shooting

add lasbacks if you can for more lascannons

put the libby with a dev squad with appropriate powers if you take one

 

throw spare points into speaders with twin multimeltas for some cheap deepstriking suicide units and again, more splitting his fire up.

 

if you take belial then your termies are scoring which along with pods/razorbacks and tacticals gives you more option to try and win with objectives.

 

DWA and reserved speeders will make him more wary and hopefully help with overall army survivability if you don't get first turn. it'll also help you alphastrike one or two of his knights more effectively

[marvmoogy]

as has been mentioned, the Stomp attack added to the D-strength weapon can make a mess of anything the DAs have to go up against one in CC.

 

This leaves shooting or manoeuvre.  Manoeuvring is easy to do against 1 target, not difficult against 2 and entirely possible against 3.  But with 5 pretty big models on the battlefield, you will find it difficult to be out of LOS of all of them.....even in a built up 'industrial' terrain setup.

 

So, shooting.  We have an AV value we can beat and, sure they have an inv save so we need weight of fire to get through it.  This is shouting Lascannons to me to ensure you are out of range of the Knights.  The Thermal Cannon armed guys have a 36" range and the Battle cannons are 72".  How can we out range that?

 

FIRESTORM REDOUBTS!  

You know you're not going up against flyers so the rules that it targets flyers / flying MCs before anything else are null & void.  200 points gets you a nice AV14  bunker with 2 quad-linked Icarus lascannons that can target them AND HAVE A 96" RANGE!!!!

 

So, if it was me......3 scout squads with camo cloaks and missile launchers....keep them hidden and save them for objective grabs (255 points)

4 Firestorm redoubts  (800 points)

Put a dev squad with lascannons in each firestorm (600 points)

Add in 2 Librarians (prescience / divination stylee) for 130 and, by my maths that totals 1785 points, 8 quad-linked lascannons and 16 man-portable lascannons.

 

That's gotta ruin a Knights day....surely?

[DarkProdigy]

Aren't those las cannons skyfire though?

[shabbadoo]

I forgot about that. The FoR's twin-linked Icarus lascannon has skyfire too. They really screwed that ability over. It is as if the writers never heard of a WW2 German 88.

"In the grim darkness of the far future, guns are only made to be fired horizontally or vertically, never both!"

Hmmm. The range, power, and accuracy of that weapon was partly why the FoD was an attractive option. Now I may end up going with the much cheaper Aegis Defense Line (without any additioanl icarus lacannons of course, as they now suck all things that can be sucked), or I could see how many Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunkers I have access to (two I think), as I would really rather have my units in some AV 14 buildings than behind a 4++ save defense line. So, I could replace the FoR with one of the following options that I have built:

* Two Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunkers, and either 6 Company Vets (one meltagun, two combi-meltas, two meltabombs) or a Deathwing Dreadnought with twin-linked lascannons & power fist

* A Land Raider (Godhammer pattern, and I could put one of the Tactical Combat Squads with meltagun + meltabombs in it)

* Two Deathwing Dreadnougths with multi-meltas & power fists

* A 5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad (CML, two TH & SH, two chainfists)

[[TA]Typher]

Btw - I just played a 2,000 point game with 3 Knight Titans (plus IG Vets, Artillery and Anti-Air) vs Dark Angels pure Deathwing. It was a friendly game and we wanted to see how it would turn out.

 

Belial + 9 Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield Terminators - killed all 3 of my Knights in close combat while losing only 4 TDAs. He was lucky though in rolling 3++ Invuls, I only got 2 rolls of 6s on all the D-Weapon / Stomp attacks I made tonight, and all 3 Catasthropic Kabooms Scattered out of range.

 

In terms of what happened - he Deep Struck behind me. My 3 Knights were close together for Adamantine Lance. I fired Melta, Battle Cannon x 2, Battle Cannon x 2, and a bunch of Heavy Stubber but only killed 1 TDA. Then I Charged (thinking I would kill everything going first at Init 4), but only killed another 2 TDA in close combat at Init 4, then he killed 2 Knights (!!) at Init 1, I failed to kill anything with Stomps, then next turn I killed another TDA, and then he killed my remaining Knight.

 

I had bad luck but it does show that it can be done.

 

Also, TH / SS clearly does better than Deathwing Knights.

 

 

If facing multiple knights then TH/SS terms might be better than DWK, just because they only get one shot with their maces.

 

Multiple units of DWKs would be dramatically better than TH/SS terms. S10 vs S8 means a huge difference, hitting on 3's and glancing on 3s vs hitting on 4s and glancing on 5s would proably be the difference in winning and losing.

 

If he won with just S8 TH/SS then good for him, but the odds aren't that great unless you mulit-charge one knight at a time with a lot of terms or roll like a champ.

 

4 terms (DW Sgt can't hurt a Knight with his PS) getting charged only have 2 attacks each. That is 8 attacks, if he was very lucky and the knight didn't kill any of them when he swung first. 4 hit on average. With 6 hull points you need pens to win, the stomp is going to suck. The Knight has front armor of 13, so  you need 6's to pen. With 4 hits on average (baring no one died) the chances of you getting 2 pens and two 6's on the vehicle damage chart isn't likely.

 

Compared to DWK's hitting on 3's at the same time the knight strikes, so they always get their attacks. So lets say 6 hit (rounding) You need 4's to Pen and 6's to explode again.. the odds are much, much better.

 

Either way you'll need more than 5 DWT or DWKs assaulting a knight to guarantee you win and even then the explosion will probably suck for you. If you get the charge off then 4 Mace wielding knight would probably kill a knight, while the DWTs wouldn't .

 

4 DWKs = 12 attacks on the charge. 8 hit on average, 4 pen and 1 or two glances. That equals a dead Knight.

4 DWT = 12 attacks on the charge. If you are really lucky and none die before they swing then you'll get 6 hit on average, 1 pens and 1 glances. That equals more dead Terms. 

[Garath]

The only thing is, with your strategy, if he goes first he will not only shoot the crap out of the units, charge them, and stomp them dead. Yeah, we'll be shaking hands all right, but not with the Ravenwing as the victor. Also, that many melta shots is not going to drop stuff as easily as you think. Shield saves, most of ithe shots not being within range to use the Melta rule, etc. So, it will be 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 get through the shields, and those will mostly be Str 8 + 1d6 vs. AV 13 (some vs. AV 12 perhaps). Even if I went first, that sounds like recipe for killing one Knight...and then getting my arse handed to me because I parked on his doorstep. Then it will be 6 battle cannon shots, 2 thermal cannon shots, 4 Hammer of Wrath hits, 16 D attacks, and 12 small blast Stomp attacks in return. That's if I were to go first. if he were to go first, and my units had to Jink, then the shooting turns into 2 hits that actually get to roll against AV....if everyone survived to even give those odds...and then I get mauled by 5 Knights instead of 4. So, your list is not exactly the "easy button" list that you make it out to be. Also, Sammael is a waste of more than 10% of the army total. Better to simply run this sort of Ravenwing group as an Unbound list and use as many 3 bike + attack bike untis in 1,865 points as possible. Playing a Ravenwing list as an "up the gut" type of army versus this opponent is probably not the best of ideas, unless done in a certain way. I think that could take down the lot of them without too much trouble, as there would be 11 of those units in 1,865 points! As long as the Hit And Run rolls don't turn out too bad, there would be all sorts of close range melta love going on there.

But, consiering what I have built (I have only about a third of that built to a playable level, but I d o have lots of Deathwing ready to rock) my plan is instead to shoot them up from range, feeding units to them in assault as necessary to bleed them/slow them down/set them up to be shot at some more. I think I will have a good chance that way, whether I go first or second.

You are assuming Ravenwing is playing to the knights advantage - but it could be the other way around.

We have a bunch melta and MM shots to work with.

Say he deploys his knights like this:

K K K K

Whatever the distance between them, if you concentrate your whole force on the left (or right) there's almost no way he can charge with more them one knight. Even if he does, no knight can ever engage more then one unit (as a multicharge is impossible with single models ).

You can premeasure , right ?

Say you deploy on the 24" line on the right. So a bunch of bikes are on the 24" line. MM AB can be anywhere within 36". Now we scout move forward. 2-3" inches is enough . The idea is to be re-deployed within 20" of a SINGLE knight .

Let us assume he siezes.

One knight will be able to charge 3 bikes. All the knights get to shoot. They can however ,each, shoot only a single unit . The shots might miss, he might roll some 1's on the to wound and the bikes can jink for a 4+ cover. 3+ if it's night fight.

A single knight charging even a single bike unit will be facing a model (sarge) with melta bombs. Those things hurt knights- don't they?

The very possible outcome of that encounter is a dead unit of 3 bikes and a knight staring at a bunch of bikes. Now they surround it and shoot from all sides. The shield can't be everywhere. They will kill it. 2-3 units are enough. All hits will be penns (barring the shield), all are Ap 1. The bikes then charge to use melta bombs.

This is wat you yourself said.

To take things even further...here's a simple list

HQ Sammael on LS

Troops:

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

Fast attack:

3 LS with 2 MM each

3 LS with 2 MM each

2 LS with 2 MM each

18 Meltas, 20 MM- all fully mobile !

If he goes first - then we do the above. If RW goes first... This concept is tailored up to 11. No way RW can loose

[marvmoogy]

The only thing is, with your strategy, if he goes first he will not only shoot the crap out of the units, charge them, and stomp them dead. Yeah, we'll be shaking hands all right, but not with the Ravenwing as the victor. Also, that many melta shots is not going to drop stuff as easily as you think. Shield saves, most of ithe shots not being within range to use the Melta rule, etc. So, it will be 24 shots, 16 hits, 8 get through the shields, and those will mostly be Str 8 + 1d6 vs. AV 13 (some vs. AV 12 perhaps). Even if I went first, that sounds like recipe for killing one Knight...and then getting my arse handed to me because I parked on his doorstep. Then it will be 6 battle cannon shots, 2 thermal cannon shots, 4 Hammer of Wrath hits, 16 D attacks, and 12 small blast Stomp attacks in return. That's if I were to go first. if he were to go first, and my units had to Jink, then the shooting turns into 2 hits that actually get to roll against AV....if everyone survived to even give those odds...and then I get mauled by 5 Knights instead of 4. So, your list is not exactly the "easy button" list that you make it out to be. Also, Sammael is a waste of more than 10% of the army total. Better to simply run this sort of Ravenwing group as an Unbound list and use as many 3 bike + attack bike untis in 1,865 points as possible. Playing a Ravenwing list as an "up the gut" type of army versus this opponent is probably not the best of ideas, unless done in a certain way. I think that could take down the lot of them without too much trouble, as there would be 11 of those units in 1,865 points! As long as the Hit And Run rolls don't turn out too bad, there would be all sorts of close range melta love going on there.

But, consiering what I have built (I have only about a third of that built to a playable level, but I d o have lots of Deathwing ready to rock) my plan is instead to shoot them up from range, feeding units to them in assault as necessary to bleed them/slow them down/set them up to be shot at some more. I think I will have a good chance that way, whether I go first or second.

You are assuming Ravenwing is playing to the knights advantage - but it could be the other way around.

We have a bunch melta and MM shots to work with.

Say he deploys his knights like this:

K K K K

Whatever the distance between them, if you concentrate your whole force on the left (or right) there's almost no way he can charge with more them one knight. Even if he does, no knight can ever engage more then one unit (as a multicharge is impossible with single models ).

You can premeasure , right ?

Say you deploy on the 24" line on the right. So a bunch of bikes are on the 24" line. MM AB can be anywhere within 36". Now we scout move forward. 2-3" inches is enough . The idea is to be re-deployed within 20" of a SINGLE knight .

Let us assume he siezes.

One knight will be able to charge 3 bikes. All the knights get to shoot. They can however ,each, shoot only a single unit . The shots might miss, he might roll some 1's on the to wound and the bikes can jink for a 4+ cover. 3+ if it's night fight.

A single knight charging even a single bike unit will be facing a model (sarge) with melta bombs. Those things hurt knights- don't they?

The very possible outcome of that encounter is a dead unit of 3 bikes and a knight staring at a bunch of bikes. Now they surround it and shoot from all sides. The shield can't be everywhere. They will kill it. 2-3 units are enough. All hits will be penns (barring the shield), all are Ap 1. The bikes then charge to use melta bombs.

This is wat you yourself said.

To take things even further...here's a simple list

HQ Sammael on LS

Troops:

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with melta boms,combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

3 bikers, sarge with combi melta, 2 melta guns , AA with MM

Fast attack:

3 LS with 2 MM each

3 LS with 2 MM each

2 LS with 2 MM each

18 Meltas, 20 MM- all fully mobile !

If he goes first - then we do the above. If RW goes first... This concept is tailored up to 11. No way RW can loose

Excuse my nay-saying but when you say that, the law of sir sod changes your statement to "No way RW can ever win"

You are going up against FIVE Knights. The tactics described above work well for 1 Knight...but you are making some serious assumptions.

1) the rest of the knights won't move. Seriously - do you think they are going to stand in a nice line blocking each others line of sight so you can pick them off one at a time?

2) The reduction in effectiveness when you loose a unit. Let's assume your grand strategy works. So, I knight is down for the count of 1 biek squad. 2 knights = you would have lost (only) 2 squads. By the time you get to the last knight (and this is ignoring any losses from the Knights shooting...) you will be down to 1 bike squad and the land speeders. Is that seriously enough firepower to take out a Knight? Possibly....but unlikely.

With the weapons a knight has to play with and the templates that go with them....you need to be REALLY cautious with hiding in the shadows to make it work. RW have NOTHING that can out range a battle cannon so terrain needs to be used and, you must NEVER solely rely on Jink saves when playing RW.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that going up against 5 knights is not an easy task....i want to try it!

[shabbadoo]

^ That, and very definitely including the "...I want to try it!" part too though.

The 24" line still means Str 8 versus AV 13 and a 4++ ion shield, with no melta rule and no meltaguns in range at all. As to the meltabombs, yes, they will likely get penetrating hits, but you only get one attack with them, and you only hit with that one attack 50% of the time. Not exactly awesome, but of course they would still be used as a cheap form of attack (note that I do have them on my squad sergeants for just that reason). Knights move quickly enough that FIVE of them will cut off your area of maneuverability no later than turn 2, as they will deploy as far forward as possible (usually 12"). At the end of turn 1 they will have cut off two feet of space on a 4' x 6' table, and by turn 2 they will have upped that to 36". Once they have done that, there is no place left to go that won't put you in charge range of them (unless you bunch up at the oppostie corner of the table, in which case you will sitll be in range of pie plate DEATH and be perfectly bunched up to suffer the worst from it), but some of them will probably have charged you on Turn 2 anyways.

Firing eleven multi-meltas at 24" range against AV 13 and a 4++ ion shield will likely just melt a few armor plates/scuff some paint, and only drop *one* of the Knights on some freakishly good rolls on the RW's part, and some bad rolls on the Knights' part. And so you will most likely have damaged one Knight, but not taken it out, and then will get to suck up 8 large blasts of DOOM. Even with Jink saves that will leave many models dead. Worse still, taking Jink saves at all emasculates your shooting the following turn, which you really can't afford to do if you employ your ranged attack plan idea. It is just not a good plan. You really need the melta rule to come into effect, and to be hitting the knights with as many shots as possible, not just 11 of them. That probably means sucking up a single turn of shots from the Knights without Jinking (which terrain and a Darkshroud would help out with), and likley being on the receiving end of a partial charge as well. It is going to hurt, but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.

It just won't be an easy fight no matter what one chooses to do. It is defintiely one of those "hyaenas vs. lion" type of scenarios, which surely would be fun to try out. I just don't have the RW models built up to do it, so I would prefer that the discussion veer back towards what I do have available. I have posted four options from the models that I do have built, and that meet a certain available points amount (roughly 260 points), so I would prefer some feedback on those. They all seem viable replacements for the Fortress of Redemption, but perhaps you lot will think of something that I am overlooking which makes one choice a bit better than the others. Some will choose based just on personal preference, but I want to hear about that too.

[marvmoogy]

Would your friend allow proxies?  Why not a Terminus Ultra pattern Landraider?  3 TL-LCs and 2 more LCs could give the Knights a headache.  You'll be in battlecannon range but AV14 means they're looking at 6s to do much of anything.  If you're feeling really insecure, take a techmarine for the bolster defences and throw the LR behind some cover to boot.  

[shabbadoo]

I abhor proxies.  I don't use them, and never have.   Besides, as I have mentioned more than a few times already, ***I will only be using Codex: Dark Angels units***, so please stick to those units.   I could put a multi-melta on the Godahmmer Land Raider though and still be within the points alotment.  I did just finsih building a Nephilim, but I think it would be unsporting to field a unit that he is incapable of harming, and so it will languish for a bit longer.

[shortysl]

Deathwing Knights. Done and done.

 

Edit: To be fair, that was a bit of a git's answer; I'm not even sure what the rear armour of a Knight is as I don't have my codex handy. The Smite ability and obvious defensive capability of Deathwing Knights would be a massive boon, but I'm doubtful that you own 1850 points worth of Deathwing Knights anyway!

 

Sorry, far too tired to give this a well-thought out answer, but I will say good luck!

[SvenONE]

Field one yourself, run 2 librarians (or Ezekiel+Lib ML2) and try to get invisibility.