Wolf Guard on Bikes

[Frater Cornelius]

Here is now the next question. Given that allies are so easily accessed, what is superior: White Scars or WG?

[skeletoro]

@Dan: in the last codex they were not 33 points but get this.... 53 points per model. The bike upgrade alone was 35 points, 5 times their current cost. So expensive they may as well have not been a thing.

 

@Imm: they're pretty different. Wolf guard bikers, I think, should be a lot more dangerous than space marine bikes. There is a distinct lack of synergy between jink and shooting attacks, twin linked weaponry and +1 to jink notwithstanding. That said, objective secured is a really big deal.

 

White scar command squads are another story and much more readily compared with wolf guard. The WS models end up about 2 points per model more expensive but can get storm shields 5 points cheaper - a squad of 5 with 2 shields costs the same. They can upgrade to an apothecary and take a company standard, and have access to combi-grav weapons, which are all excellent options (note, however, the lack of synergy between jink and that grav shot). They also get bonuses to jink, hammer of wrath and hit and run. However, the wolf guard have +1 WS (the company champion upgrade is 15 points, by comparison), access to +1 strength special ccw at a 5 point premium (perhaps not a huge deal, but nice) and more flexibility in terms of squad size and number of packs per detachment (assuming CotGW).

 

We can also get a modicum of FnP by choosing a wolf priest as an IC to lead the pack. Over twice the price of the apothecary but includes a power weapon, has better stats, an invulnerable save, preferred enemy and access to relics. Perhaps better than an apothecary and company champion combined, and actually a similar price to the pair if you give the apothecary a power weapon. Well, slightly more.

 

It's really quite close, to be honest. Both are great units. I find it hard to call.

[Leif Bearclaw]

White Scars for shooty bikes, because Grav.

Wolf Guard for combat bikes, because minimum 3 attacks and armoury access on all models.

[Frater Cornelius]

I like to compare because White Scars seem to be top dogs at tourneys right now. Lists usually look like this: White Scar Command Squad with Apo, tanking Chapter Master (shield eternal and all that jazz) and Khan, 2 White Scar bike squads, TFCs, Grav Centurions in pod (is that even legal?!!), usually with Coteaz and some small extras like mininal henchmen in psybacks to score objectives.

Can PAWG (in rhinos), TWC, TW Lord and WG Bikes holt up against that sort of list? I can dominate Choppa but they will rip me apart before that happens due to Cent drop and Grav spam...

[Leif Bearclaw]

I like to compare because White Scars seem to be top dogs at tourneys right now. Lists usually look like this: White Scar Command Squad with Apo, tanking Chapter Master (shield eternal and all that jazz) and Khan, 2 White Scar bike squads, TFCs, Grav Centurions in pod, usually with Coteaz (is that even legal?!!) and some small extras like mininal henchmen in psybacks to score objectives.

Can PAWG (in rhinos), TWC, TW Lord and WG Bikes holt up against that sort of list? I can dominate Choppa but they will rip me apart before that happens due to Cent drop and Grav spam...

Isn't that an illegal build?

 

Centurions don't get Pods as dedicated transports, and we're the only Marines currently with the option to take undedicated Pods. So the only way to get Pod Centurion is to ally in Space Wolves.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, someone once told me that you could buy a pod for a TFC and give it to centurions. I didn't really double check so I am not sure, but I presume that this is illegal. But since SW can take that pod and ally White Scars, the question is even more relevant. Pay 150 points for 6 WG Bikers WS5, 4 attacks and then throw some combi weapons or a power weapon on it. Or take 5 WS bikers with 2 Grav and 1 combi-Grav. Because dropping some Centurions sounds devastating, especially when combined with Biker pressure. I am simply worried that WG bikers will not hold up because they will die to shooting very easily and they are no match against a White Scar Command Squad in melee (there is little that is short of a Thunderwolf Star).

[Valerian]

Well, someone once told me that you could buy a pod for a TFC and give it to centurions. I didn't really double check so I am not sure,

 

A unit may not start the game in a transport that is dedicated to another unit - so that's definitely right out.  The reason everyone is making a big deal out of the new SW codex, in this regard, is that you can get Drop Pods that aren't dedicated to a unit for the first time.

 

v

[Leif Bearclaw]

Yeah, that Thunderfire business is totally wrong. While the cannon can take a pod, it's still a dedicated transport. Which means only the unit it is bought for may start the game embarked.

 

In your proposed list, it isn't the WG biker that should be competing with a command squad. That job should really be going to your TWC and Lord. Geared up with Storm Shields, they're the superior melee unit.

 

Edit: Damns, Valerian got there first while I was typing.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, even without the Centurion Drop, I fear that Grav Weapons is what stops WG Bikers right in their tracks.

[Leif Bearclaw]

If you're that worried about Grav Bikers, consider a dual strike with WG bikers/TWC paired with Fenrisian Wolves. Or hide a TW Lord in with the Wolves, rendering the Grav wasted, the bodies soak the boltgun fire, then the Lord does his thing in assault.

 

As for Centurions, it's trickier, especially if they're psychically buffed and in cover. You could try alpha striking with Divination buffed combi weapon WG though. Unless the opponent has spent silly points, you'll probably only be facing three Centurions, that's only six wounds you need to make stick.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, after thinking it through a bit, I feel that Centurions aren't the biggest concern. I run my Champions of Fenris Thunderlord in a pack of Fenrisian Wolves and once he reaches those Centurions, they suffer critical existence failure. And he will be knocking at their door turn 2 with 2 more 4man TWC units. In fact, Grav guns do not bother me so much in general as much as they bother me specifically when I take WG Bikers.

 

Have a look:

 

Thunderlord with all this awesome relics and wargear and a pack of Ferisian wolves.

2x 10 PAWG in rhinos with combi weapons, clocking in around the same price as equivalent GH but have 4A and WS5. Great, they can take on any tac squad and will reduce Grav Bikers to dust when they disembark. Can't handle command squads but that what the TWC is for. They are mainly for midfield and objective duty.

2x 4 TWC with SS and melta bombs. Awesome units.

Stormwolf, great AT and AA all around.

 

But here comes the thing. I have around 350-400 points left. To support my speedy advance I was considering WG Bikers because they are WS5, get 4 attacks and have access to combi-weapons and power weapons. 180-200 points for a nicely kitted out unit sounds like a good deal.

But the have no defense. TWC have 2 wounds and SS, Fenrisian wolves are super cheap and PAWG are in Rhinos. Once Grav+bolter salvo from a 155 points 5man WS bike squad will destroy and jinking 180 point WG bike squad.

 

I really like them. They fit my theme, they seem strong. But when looking at the amount of ways to ignore armour and the dominance of Eldar and White Scars, I really feel that they will be wasted points most of the time. But that is just me saying it without having tried them.

Maybe they are worth every penny. This is why I am asking whether I should include them or look for alternatives.

 

Edit: an interesting alternative for Champions of Fenris is to take several naked 5man squads. Say, 130 points for 5 bikes and 1 melta bomb. They will function like Eldar Jetbikes in a way. Not costing enough to dedicate fire, but if ignored, they destroy you. 3x5 bike units would fit into the army, but WS grav biker units are 155 points.. so there are again.

[skeletoro]

If the bikers are jinking they'll have a hard time hitting with their grav weapons. Are they outflanking or scouting?

[Frater Cornelius]

Nah, the 15 dudes just deploy and against scouting armies like WS I would want to go second to get that first turn charge on them. That is a lot of bolter shots, loads of melee swings and darn cheap. I think this is an interesting way of doing it, because this meager 130 point setup can deal with pretty much anything on the field bar 2+ armour MC and flyers.

[skeletoro]

My gut told me to go second against a ravenwing army a while back. I decided it was a bad idea afterwards. I really should have gone first to get them jinking and snap-shooting those plasma talons.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

you know what upsets centurions day..... a 6 man long fang unit with 5 PC's and a wolf priest. 

[Frater Cornelius]

My gut told me to go second against a ravenwing army a while back. I decided it was a bad idea afterwards. I really should have gone first to get them jinking and snap-shooting those plasma talons.

 

Well, go second if you have enough terrain to hide in that is ;)

[Hear da Lamentation]

Great to see a post from Littlebitz again !  For me, he is hands down the "Biker Master" and definitely worth listening to his opinions.

 

I have been a swift claw fan for quite some years and was gutted to see their nerf.  Until I read the Wolf Guard page and saw how cheap the bikes now were.

OK we lose special weapons - but we can have combi instead - and SS for an absolute steal ... on everyone if we want !  Loving it !

 

One point I read earlier ... my understanding is that Kahn (with the White Scars) only gives his Scout and Hit and Run abilities to those with the White Scar faction.  I dont think he will give this to Space Wolves.

 

It is a real shame you cannot get Grav guns on SW.  I eventually turned from my SwiftClaws to White Scar biker aliies because of this.  BUT, with our bikers looking more assault based now ... I am also really hoping we can start showing armies that Shooting > Assault is no longer the case !!!!

[Sohail187]

if you really want the access to some of the goodies white scars have to offer wg bikers and u also want grav weapons with out the bikers this is your best bet.

 

buy 1 fast attack drop pod.

Allies 

Khan 

 

1 Cheap bike naked just for objectives running left to right up and down! 

 

Heavy support

Centurions grav weapon cannons omniscope ect..ect

 

Tactics behind this.

you stick khan with your main wg bike unit, now I am not 100% but he might give them the scout ability if he does great if not! they will still benefit from hit and run. Now you have your bikes with cc capability and you have grav weapons coming down turn 1 to lay some juice down. Also stick a rune priest in that pod! for a spell or 2 and you are sorted.

[Frater Cornelius]

I have been thinking and will actually give the cheap 5man w/ 2 melta bombs a try. 3 of them. If my assault variant utterly fails, only then will I be looking at WS. I already have a list up and running for my next FLGS League. Very handy to test those lists.

[WG Vrox]

Building the first 10 man unit, I want to be able to split them into 2 / 5 man units for play testing purposes. I am thinking something like this. Could use some input though before I commit to the build. 

 

4 Bikers: 100 points

4 Bikers with CP & MB: 160 points

2 Bikers with SS/PA: 100  points

 

Keeping it relatively cheap at 360, saving points to outfit my HQs,  I am planning on modeling a WL and WP on bikes to join with the unit/s. Mainly see the WG unit as a shooty unit that will absorb some firepower with the WL able to break off and deal with any CC issues. As stated I plan to run a unit or two of TWC that will be the main CC portion of my list.  

 

Power Fist or not to power first instead of the PA is the question.. 50 points is massive considering the units overall price and the fact I want to keep it a somewhat shooty unit. 

[skeletoro]

Khan doesn't have to give hit and run and scout to the SW. Those abilities work as long as at least one model in the unit has them.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

@ Immersturm - What is the load-out on your PAWG? I am doing something similar and would like to know how you are running yours.

 

Thanks

 

I had my first game with the new codex today. It was against a Plague Marine List. 5 x 7 PMs in Rhinos, Chaos Lord and 3 x 3 Obliterators. Simple but nasty. The bikes didn't really do spectacular. Partly my fault but I was setting up to charge into his lines with 4 TWC, 7 bikes and my TW Lord with 15 Fenris Wolves. Two squads of Obliterators chose assault cannons to shoot the bikers and only two survived, the TH/SS dude and the RP. The TH/SS guy went on later to smash some stuff and the RP broke off to join a TWC pack but I was kind of shocked at how brittle the bikes actually were. I probably need to play around with it a little more before pulling pitch though.

[Hear da Lamentation]

The brittleness of bikers (as you nicely put it) is a real learning curve to go through.  It's one of the things which make bikers difficult to play  (but fun I find).  In the end they are marines - and die to the same stuff marines die to ... lots of shots.  All those nice things you can give them, like 3++ and jink don't do diddly to volume of shots.  (Of course the T5 does help)

 

Can you say the same for Thunderwolf Cavalry though? Previously I think you could because they are the same (defensively) for twice the points with 2 wounds.  But now they are quite a bit cheaper.

 

So you have to ask - what do they bring that you can't get with TWC instead? (Even the jink is slightly less good now that you can have cheap storm shields on the TWC).  The shooting is not to be sniffed at, but I think you need quite large units for that to really kick in.  But there is also the turbo boost ..... which is often a Significant advantage.  You can also have the combi melta's of course ... but the points really add up now.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well I probably will be stepping up my ranged game and running them 2*6 bikes with 1 melta bomb and 2 combi weapons, probably plasmas.

I want avoid them becoming too expensive. They are a harass unit and a way to deal with tanks. They can also deal with hordes very well in both range and melee.

The main charge against elite units still comes from TWC and TWM Lord.

[littlbitz]

HDL brings up some very good points. Bikers in my opinion are good, but there is a learning curve to them. Myself, I'm not bringing then to Nova this weekend, but fully intend to take them to Mechanicon in October. I am certAinly going to be figuring them out for this edition. I've a feeling the tactics haven't changed too much, but the load out, and addition of a WG bike unit will greatly change my list