To 40K or not to 40K? Here is the question.....

[captain fabian]

Hello brothers

 

I came to you to ask for guidance. 

Here's how things are. I stopped playing 40K in 5th edition. I was completely lost when the allies system was introduced and I hated it. Its even worse now with the dataslates, formations, supplements, whatever they're called nowadays. I stopped because I though it was a stupid game with no balance whatsoever, no tactical thinking and not even close to reality. Coming from a fantasy background I find it difficult to adjust to 40K.'s logic I must admit. I hate power gamers with a passion and seeing all those min/max combinations gets on my nerves. Especially when allies come into play. So with the new codex I came here to ask for your guidance. I like the wolves, their fluff and their miniature. Actually all the armies I own are related to vikings (dwarfs, chaos warriors, space wolves). So I want your sincere opinion on whether I should come back to 40K given my stance towards the game.I think I like the current edition of the rules and I would like to give it a try. Of course I have nothing to lose if I do. I just want to know what would you do in my position, because Im not completely sure I want to get involved, plus I refuse to give GW a single euro. I have the rules/codeces I need but im not going to legally acquire them if im not sure im doing this.

All this may sound pessimistic or to some of you out of place, but Im an experienced player and I know 40K has turned into a money making mechanism aimed at kids and new players these days. Part of me wants to start again but on the other hand it may be the new codex syndrome thats doing this to me.

 

What does the pack think?

[Karack Blackstone]

Get the SW Codex; read up on the fluff and the changes made in our 7th edition book.

 

Figure out whether or not the changes you see are something you consider to be in line with your notions of where the game needs to go over time.

 

BC's are truly viable again; they're low points cost, and with their guiding WP, they can do a great deal of harm.

 

Ulric is a true beast once again, in terms of his combat ability.

 

Find a list you'd like to try, some new stuff, some of our tried and true.  Just go with what is fun; if you win or lose, and win in the fun category, you have not lost.

[Lord Ragnarok]

This is a very personal issue that only you can decide. For me I never had the opportunity to get tired or dislike the game because I rarely get to play. I love variety and love the different rules to make a very personalized army. My opinion is that power gamers have been here since we were painting on caves and those folks and they will not go extinct.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yet another one of those 'boohoooo allies, unbalanced, overpowered'. I am very sorry, but I have no sympathy for such negative nancies whatsoever. If you dislike allies, then do not play them. If you are getting beaten around, improve your game or find casual players to play with. Yes, GW has done a lot of very stupid things, but how come people never mention the actual good thing that came out of it?

My opinion is either stop crying and be a real Space Wolf or do not even attempt to start it. Because if you start the game with such half hearted negative attitude, you will get nowhere and just resent it even more.

[Z00Z]

Hello brothers

 

I came to you to ask for guidance. 

Here's how things are. I stopped playing 40K in 5th edition. I was completely lost when the allies system was introduced and I hated it. Its even worse now with the dataslates, formations, supplements, whatever they're called nowadays. I stopped because I though it was a stupid game with no balance whatsoever, no tactical thinking and not even close to reality. Coming from a fantasy background I find it difficult to adjust to 40K.'s logic I must admit. I hate power gamers with a passion and seeing all those min/max combinations gets on my nerves. Especially when allies come into play. So with the new codex I came here to ask for your guidance. I like the wolves, their fluff and their miniature. Actually all the armies I own are related to vikings (dwarfs, chaos warriors, space wolves). So I want your sincere opinion on whether I should come back to 40K given my stance towards the game.I think I like the current edition of the rules and I would like to give it a try. Of course I have nothing to lose if I do. I just want to know what would you do in my position, because Im not completely sure I want to get involved, plus I refuse to give GW a single euro. I have the rules/codeces I need but im not going to legally acquire them if im not sure im doing this.

All this may sound pessimistic or to some of you out of place, but Im an experienced player and I know 40K has turned into a money making mechanism aimed at kids and new players these days. Part of me wants to start again but on the other hand it may be the new codex syndrome thats doing this to me.

 

What does the pack think?

 

Hi and welcome!

 

I can only talk from my personal experiences so pls add salt. Having played fantasy when i started in the UK and later LOTR in Aus (I move around a lot), and now 40K SW only recently, I can testify that finding a good gaming grp is key. My local group comprised of good friends now have 8 armies between the 4 of us and we play for fun mostly. Whilst still competitive (human nature), none have subscribed to allies etc. We keep to our codexes' detachments and dataslates. 

 

We also take the time to build our own terrain and forge narratives and our own missions and campaigns. 

 

I think the gaming group should be your first consideration, the 40k ruleset is just a framework to have fun in. We also dont play at FLGS or tournaments not as a rule, but we enjoy our Saturday BBQ's, the wives get on and socialise and we play at our own homes. 

 

This is the sort of terrain we make for our games, we hobbyists 1st, gamers 2nd. Most of all, we best of mates. 

 

http://i.imgur.com/016TjTY.jpg

[tjdudey]

My suggestion is, if there is a chance you will be unimpressed or disappointed by the game, then don't spend a penny. Its too expensive of a hobby to invest on the off-chance you might like it. I see no moral or ethical problems with playtesting with pdfs of the books until you are sure you like it. Once you are sure, then you can spend some money...

 

my 2 cents

[spjaco]

There is no reason why you cannot collect the models you like/want and occasionally pick up a friendly game here and there.  That way your army still gets game time, but you get to keep up with the painting/modeling aspect. 

 

I get what you say about the meta-gaming and min/maxer's.  It bothered me too, but I was able to identify those players early on and only took them on when there were no one else to play, then when they had their maxed out Daemon Prince Chaos United Army and I had my 3,000 pt ground sloggin army we settled in for a loonnngggg drawn out fight. 

 

I won.  Killed two Daemon Princes on turn 3 and 4, as well as a Defiler on turn 2.  I only lost one entire pack of Blood Claws and had two packs of Grey Hunters mangled, but still on the table.  Abaddon croaked at the foot of Blackmane with two Long Fang packs in overwatch in turn 6!  I still had two squads of Blood Claws in reserve (on the table, but out of sight behind a castle gate)!

 

The game ended that turn.  My opponent did not come back to the store for over two months with a NEW mega-list.

 

My point is think like a wolf.  Don't always attack when and where your opponent is strongest, but attack him where there is an opening and bleed or weaken him. 

 

Break him down. 

 

Savor the victory.

 

As a Space Wolf player it is YOUR game.  Enjoy it.

[Blacksad]

I'm in mostly the same boat as you man. recently went to the store, looking to buy our new codex, and the rulebook. after seeing the prices, I walked out, went home, took a long, cold shower, and cried for a few hours.

 

just to have the rules to play the game you have to pay what 2 years ago you paid for a 2k points army worth of figurines. WH40K seems to be changing to a game made solely for CEO kids and celebs...

[Squark]

I'm in mostly the same boat as you man. recently went to the store, looking to buy our new codex, and the rulebook. after seeing the prices, I walked out, went home, took a long, cold shower, and cried for a few hours.

 

just to have the rules to play the game you have to pay what 2 years ago you paid for a 2k points army worth of figurines. WH40K seems to be changing to a game made solely for CEO kids and celebs...

Uhh... unless you're talking ebay (which is volatile, and is beyond anyone's control), there's no way you could get a 2k list for $120 short of Draigo wing with every single item master-crafted and all two super expensive units of 5 paladins.

 

Anyway... Well, has the game changed? Yes. The advantage of GW's release method as opposed to, say, Warmachine's, is that the metagame shifts with every (non-junk) codex release. Are there still power-gamers? Yes. And there is no way to get rid of them short of removing all the rules of the game (and thus kind of removing any competitive mechanics at all), and, frankly, I don't think they're bad for the game in any way, shape, or form*. The real question is; does your playstyle match up with yours? Because that's what seems to be the real deal breaker for you.

 

 

*Munchkinry on the other hand, is, but that's not what we've seen for the most part. Hell, a lot of power gamers complained about 6th because the deathstar meta was boring.

 

Aside: Allies weren't the problem with 6th edition. In many ways they helped out with keeping armies in the game- Letting Black Templars actually hold objectives, giving fliers to those who didn't have them. The only 6th edition game breaker that depended on Allies was Dark Eldar 2+ invulnerable saves with fortune from Craftworld eldar. Everything else would have been pretty much the same without allies. Maybe Taudar got a little better. But, if the price of keeping several armies playable is making the top tier a tad better, that's a price worth paying.

[spjaco]

I had three thousand points destroyed in a move.  When I filed a claim they said it was plastic and there for not worth anything.....   I should have claimed it as Hobby - Assorted and that would have helped.  

 

Currently I have no Army or Codex.  But I will be getting back into it after my youngest turns four, this coming January, until then I will get the books when I can. 

 

I figure a box set a month, troops or dreads, maybe a Rhino or Drop Pod here and there.  That will give me time to paint it up to a nice standard.  Once I get enough troops then I will start on vehicles.

[Trevak Dal]

Even if you don't have a "Proper army" (1 hq, 2 troops, etc) you can still play with what you got.  Just let people know before hand-nobody wants the "SURPRISE, I'm Playing an Only HQ army," without some warning.

[Z00Z]

"Ceo kids and celebs..." wow...

[Z00Z]

Wrong thread ignore.

[Blacksad]

€70 for the basic rulebook, €80 for the codex and supplement, and then you don't have an army yet. yeah, that's for the rich (and possibly famous)

 

and Squark: 2k might be an exaggeration, but around 1500 was easy for that amount of money

[Z00Z]

I dont know, ive read tons of opinions on how expensive the hobby is. I used to play golf for a few years. Now thats expensive! As a hobby goes and the amount of times there are updates (2009 last codex) I dont see it... but thats me. Everyone has different circumstances I guess. New codex is a cost of a meal out with the missus or a night at the pub?

[Frater Cornelius]

Last time I checked a codex usually costs 39€. For 110€ you would never have gotten a 1.5k army. 2 years ago a tac squad costed 30€ a box. Grey Hunters still cost 30€ per box and it has been like that for a long time now. No one said that the hobby is cheap, but if you are rushing into the store and buying your entire 3k army and every book even closely related to you, then you are doing it wrong and should lose the privilege to spend money.

[Trevak Dal]

I've played everything between 400 and 4000 point games.  I prefer games to be about 1500 points-it mitigates some of the egregious crap people can be tempted to bring (There a Guy who always wants to bring a Trancendent C'Tan...*sigh*)

 

Though admittedly, I've had the most fun with the "Bigger Kilteam" type games of 400 points with slightly lowered restrictions (we allow TA units)  Yes, with every model being it's own unit still.  It's both Massive...and small.  

 

It's how we teach new players fundamentals (Measuring, Movement, Line of Sight, Shooting and assault) and urge them to "Buy a unit, model the unit, paint the unit-play the unit".  Of the Guys at the group, I probably LOVE lower points games the most.  I actually have not been playing, but have been GM-ing some Killteam type games here recently.  

I got our friend who plays tyranids to actually enjoy and have fun with his Hormagaunts, Genestealers and Lictors against two TDA Killteams sent to investigate some ruins.  The next one I'm brainstorming is one where their Killteams investigate a derelict Tau battle station, halfway across the galaxy from Tau Space.

[Spacefrisian]

Dont see how you lost sight of it all, everything is kind of crystally clear laid out what you can take, what dataslates you can add and other things.

 

I take a guess and say that what you actually want to say is "its something to new for me, and i dont like new stuff"

 

Although i kind of stopped reading at the strategical part as i dont see 40k as a real strategie game, unless you can pop out some clever ambush somewhere and have the opponent scare himself into submission kind of strategies.

[Stormborn]

Yet another one of those 'boohoooo allies, unbalanced, overpowered'. I am very sorry, but I have no sympathy for such negative nancies whatsoever. If you dislike allies, then do not play them. If you are getting beaten around, improve your game or find casual players to play with. Yes, GW has done a lot of very stupid things, but how come people never mention the actual good thing that came out of it?

My opinion is either stop crying and be a real Space Wolf or do not even attempt to start it. Because if you start the game with a half hearted negative attitude, you will get nowhere and just resent it even more.

Not sure I agree wtih everything you have said but the part I've highlighted in red is bang on the money.

 

However, to answer the OP's original question.  Personally I think the new style of codex GW have started releasing is awful to unreadable however needs must.  I'm much more of a kill team far quicker and cheaper to play,  Although personally I prefer and recommend Herald's of Ruin's rules over  GW's you can down load them free just check out their website.

[incinerator950]

I had three thousand points destroyed in a move. When I filed a claim they said it was plastic and there for not worth anything..... I should have claimed it as Hobby - Assorted and that would have helped.

 

Currently I have no Army or Codex. But I will be getting back into it after my youngest turns four, this coming January, until then I will get the books when I can.

 

I figure a box set a month, troops or dreads, maybe a Rhino or Drop Pod here and there. That will give me time to paint it up to a nice standard. Once I get enough troops then I will start on vehicles.

I left my models with a friend at his mom's. I leave for college and he gets married, and somehow he can't find any of them.

 

I know the similar feeling.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

7th is what 6th should have been.  And it has toned down some of the ridiculousness that some combos and builds 6th brought to the table.  There will always be some OP stuff though.

 

I really like our new codex.  I haven't played with it yet, but the changes made are what I thought we needed.  There is a lot of internal balance.  My only complaint is that Wolf Scouts are meh.  It is not as strong of a meta-shifting release as our last codex was in 5th but I do know that it is a solid book.

 

Find a group that doesn't power game.  But don't get too frustrated because the point of the game is to win.  And list-building is part of the game.  You just can't throw a bunch of stuff on the board without a plan or synergy and expect to win. (Not really directed at you, but sometimes the internet gets too loud about "internet lists".  My chief competitor is an Eldar player that plays 2 Wraithknights and 4+ Wave serpents at 1850.  It makes me a better player and list builder.

 

I think you should give a go at getting back in the hobby.  But take it one step at a time.

 

I have played this game almost 15 years now,  GW has always been about selling to kids and new players.  I was one of those kids.  But I still really enjoy the hobby.