hellfrost invuln save

[HunterKiller-x-]

so a debate came up with invuln saves.when having to make a hellfrost test.

his argument "it says in the BRB that you always get to make an invulnsave even if it says ignores saves so you get an invuln save against the strength test."

 

my argument "you have allready made a invuln save versus the AP weapon of the weapon and failed so don't get to make another against the hellfrost test, you took the test, failed and so was removed as casulty despite having wounds left"

also does the test ignore eternal warrior? so even though the model has eternal warrior if he fails the test he is removed from play? and what about re-animation protocol?

now im pritty sure I'm right..... right?

[Sohail187]

I do not have the rules in front of me but i am fairly sure it says that the model must make a Str test or be removed from play. So no arm saves of any kind allowed, bit like jaws.

[tjdudey]

Off the top of my head...

 

You can't take an invuln save on a characteristic test, unless it causes a wound, ie Tyranid Acid Blood.

 

Eternal Warrior, ignores the instant death special rule, but Helfrost doesn't cause instant death, it removes the model from play.

 

Thats my understanding.

 

Good question well presented...

[Kassill]

Not sire about 7th bit I don't remember any saves ever being allowed for characteristics tests

[HunterKiller-x-]

OK so all of your thinking matches my thinking so I'm pretty sure we are all correct. it makes logical sense,

.

[Sohail187]

its fairly clear in the box tbh mate. Your friend or opponent has no leg to stand on. take the test if you fail *removed from play*.  

[Brother Amarel]

so a debate came up with invuln saves.when having to make a hellfrost test.

 

his argument "it says in the BRB that you always get to make an invulnsave even if it says ignores saves so you get an invuln save against the strength test."

 

my argument "you have allready made a invuln save versus the AP weapon of the weapon and failed so don't get to make another against the hellfrost test, you took the test, failed and so was removed as casulty despite having wounds left"

 

also does the test ignore eternal warrior? so even though the model has eternal warrior if he fails the test he is removed from play? and what about re-animation protocol?

 

now im pritty sure I'm right..... right?

 

The BBB actually says that "Invulnerable Saves [...] may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound", which isn't what is happening. The Characteristic Tests section states that if the test is failed "something unusual will occur" (which in this case is the removal of the model).

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sheesh, even this little bit of hell frost cheese one wants to argue rules. I have never ever heard of anyone trying to make an invuln save twice. That guy is a bloke if you ask me. You are absolutely right hunter.

[DanPesci]

yep no eternal warrior, no invul saves once you get to the point of taking the strength test. Work exactly the same as jaws used to.does with intiative test. You fail, your guy/girl/massive scary monster is removed.

[Urauloth]

Since it was mentioned, how does helfrost interact with reanimation protocols?

[Frater Cornelius]

Invul saves can be taken against wounds and glances/pens. Characteristic test are not wounds, neither is 'removed from play'.

Eternal Warrior makes immune to instant death, which is caused by wounds or effects. 'Removed from play' does not cause wounds and it does not say 'instant death', thus eternal warrior isn't a factor.

[Leif Bearclaw]

If memory serves (been a while since I read the Necron dex), Helfrost should bypass the reanimation protocols rule. I think reanimation states something like 'when a model loses its last wound, place a reanimation protocols counter next to the unit'. As helfrost doesn't remove wounds, reanimation wouldn't come into play.

[Adorondak]

So how does helfrost interact with Feel no Pain? Helfrost says for each unsaved wound you take the str test, and technically FNP is not a saving throw so does a wound negated by FNP still count as an unsaved wound for the purposes of helfrost?

[Frater Cornelius]

So how does helfrost interact with Feel no Pain? Helfrost says for each unsaved wound you take the str test, and technically FNP is not a saving throw so does a wound negated by FNP still count as an unsaved wound for the purposes of helfrost?

 

FnP works against wounds. As I mentioned above, 'removed from play' does not cause wounds. FnP can be used against the wound from the Helfrost weapon, but once the wound is caused and not prevented he is at the mercy of the strength test and nothing else.. bar Jesus flying it and punching you.

[Kasper_Hawser]

In the first place, you would already have used feel no pain, failing which you will take a wound and therefore take strength test.

 

In order:

 

Take armour/invuln save

If fail, take feel no pain test.

If fail, you take a wound, then take strength test to see if model is removed.

[Adorondak]

Not what I meant, What I meant was that if I saved the wound with FNP would I still take the str test, because technically it's still an unsaved wound because feel no pain is not a saving throw

[Blacksad]

but the wound hasn't been taken, cause it was saved against with FNP, so it is actualy a saving throw...

[Lord Ragnarok]

Not what I meant, What I meant was that if I saved the wound with FNP would I still take the str test, because technically it's still an unsaved wound because feel no pain is not a saving throw

You roll your FNP as normal. If it does not pass, it gets removed. 

[HunterKiller-x-]

all very interesting, tho i now feel armed with all the knowledge i need to counter any of his desperate arguments, should I ever get anything to fail the strength test again.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Actually looking at it harder. This is more challenging to me when I first thought of it. 

 

I'm thinking it is this...

 

1. take wound

2. Save wound 

3.Fail Save

4 FNP?

5. Fail FNP

6. St test

7. Fail Str. test

8. Remove model.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

if you read the book you would see that when a feel no pain test is passed, it is treated as if it was saved.

[Lord Ragnarok]

if you read the book you would see that when a feel no pain test is passed, it is treated as if it was saved.

This is true, once you pass FNP. The rolls stop. helfrost would only be if you failed armor, inv, then FNP rolls. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Yup, that's what I said earlier as well.

[Vash113]

The question of reanimation protocols is interesting. Now for multi-wound models it would work exactly as normal but what about single wound models like Necron Warriors? They fail a save to Helfrost weapons and lose a wound, normally they wouldn't need to take the strength test because as one wound models they would be removed from play already, but since they have a chance to get up from reanimation protocols would or could you require the Helfrost test to be rolled and if failed remove the model before reanimation protocols is rolled for?

[Spacefrisian]

I believe that those reanimation protocols had something in there erratas about this, so in that case, remove from play isnt realy removed from play. But i havent checked there erratas in a while.

 

Feel free to correct me on that.