I want my 10 points back!

[Simiel]

So, Space puppys and Grey Knight's get 33 point Terminators equipped with just storm bolters and a power weapon ( in a similar fashion to the heretics! ) and there units to start with are equipped identically and are priced consistently 99pt's for 3 Wolf Guard Terminators and 165 for five Greyknight Terminators....

 

So why do Deathwing and Codex Marine Tactical Terminators get charged 10pts for non-existent power fist upgrade for there Sargents ?

[Larhendiel]

looks like power creep of some sort for me, I wouldn't expect anything different rom GW, if this company will be arround for next 20 years or so and if people will still play their system I'd expect termies to cost about 20 pts/model and we'll have to pay approx 120GBP per box of five termies XD

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Maybe in the nextcodex we get some revisions. Until then we have to paly with the cards we were dealt with.

[Brother Bahram]

Do the puppies got something like the "Inner Circle" rule?

[GrandMasterAralia]

Do the puppies got something like the "Inner Circle" rule?

And what about vengeful strike and deathwing assault. Does the SW have access to similar abilities? And most importantly, do they need a special character to unlock troop TDAs?

[Commander_Moustache]

 

Do the puppies got something like the "Inner Circle" rule?

And what about vengeful strike and deathwing assault. Does the SW have access to similar abilities? And most importantly, do they need a special character to unlock troop TDAs?

 

 

Nope and nope. And sure we get nice and cheap termies to start with, if you want th/ss or twin claws (ok our claws are better) Then we start paying more (15pts)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

They do have Fortress of shields with an improvement. ;)

[templarphoenix]

Once you got pinned down, you will remember how good fearless is.

[SvenONE]

Well, hopefully we won't be the test-dex next time around and instead will be the mold to which all the others are cast.  Seeing the range of unit costs across the DA, C:SM, SW and now these early GK entries makes me believe that we'll get a MUCH needed decrease in cost, not much, but probably down to 40 points, 35 seems too low, but you wouldn't see me complaining if we did.

 

I think it's funny how much people love Deathwing when even prior this GK book they've still had the best all-terminator army.  Beefy HQ? Check.  Terminators as troops? Check. Shooting? Check.  Multiple Close Combat options? Check. Psyker Powers? Check. 2 Wound terminators if they are so inclined? Check.  Points leftover for some support units? Check.

 

Not to poo poo on our boys in bone, but DW is overvalued.  It's one of the reasons I always argue that it's overcosted.  

 

DWA isn't bad, but unless you invest in bikes you're scattering somewhere

Vengeful Assault is ok against Xenos, but made to be slightly worse with the new Night Fighting rules.  Twinlinked stormbolters/assault cannons? Ok, I've got a 3+ cover because I'm standing in ruins at night now.

Fearless? When your alternative is ATSHNF and you are LD9 (most likely LD10 since you'll have an HQ attached) and you have (most likely) a banner to re-roll the failed checks.  Meh

Preferred Enemy Chaos? Ok, now what about the other 12 books on the wall?

 

DW's biggest advantage is the near indestructible ObSec Landraider.

 

Looking at outside factors like the prevalence of AP2, extremely high volumes of shooting and Monstrous Creatures in this generation of the game; it makes perfect sense that GW has been bringing down Terminators in cost with these 2 codices.   From a business standpoint it behooves GW to bring Terminators back into relevance with their cost.

[Master Antaeus]

Codex terminators get chapter tactics? 

[Simiel]

For our 34pts ( 44pts - 10pt's for a power fist ) we get :

Fearless

Preferred Enemy ( Chaos Space Marine )

Split Fire

and Deathwing strike.

Space poodles get for there 33pts:

Acute Senses ( which can be of use in the great company formation as they have the possibility of out flanking )

Counter Attack

Greyknights for there 33pts:

The Aegis ( Re-Roll 1's on Deny the Witch )

Brotherhood of Psykers ( Mastery Level 1 )

Preferred Enemy ( Daemons )

Purity of Spirit ( Sanctic Demonology only, perils only on multiple 6's )

they also get:

Nemesis Force weapons ( roughly equivalent in cost to there power analogues but with Force and Daemonbane )

Frak, Krak and Psyche-Out grenades!

also with Rites of Teleportation they can deep strike turn 1 on a 3+

Codex Marines for there 30pts:

Chapter Tactics

Unfortunately I can't see our points coming down in our next codex, best we can hope for is a bit more flexibility with our Sargent or not paying for a power fist he doesn't have

[ZONKEY]

I find a 10 man unit of terminators deep striking first turn will scare the crap out of anyone

[Prot]

I find a 10 man unit of terminators deep striking first turn will scare the crap out of anyone

 

+ potentially anywhere they want, just outside an inch of a juicy target.

[Firepower]

I find a 10 man unit of terminators deep striking first turn will scare the crap out of anyone

 

What about Necrons?  I don't think Necrons can poop.

[Prot]

 

I find a 10 man unit of terminators deep striking first turn will scare the crap out of anyone

 

What about Necrons?  I don't think Necrons can poop.

 

 

They just stand there and oil their pants.

[ZONKEY]

I think metallic Lego falls out

[Komrk]

Codex Marines for there 30pts:

Chapter Tactics if applicable

 

Fixed that for you *cough* Raven Guard *cough*

[Kasper_Hawser]

I somewhat resent being called space poodles but what the heck, I've heard worse derogatory terms for the sons of Fenris.

 

Anyway, I just want to highlight a few things about Space Wolves terminators based on new codex:

 

1) SW Terminators as troops - Space wolves codex by itself can't do it, but Champions of Fenris supplement gives a different org chart, basically compulsory 1 HQ and 2 Elites, followed by 6 optional elites, , 3 HQs, 3 troops and rest is same. So yes, pure Space Wolves termie army can be fielded, and without Logan Grimnar too.

 

2) SW terminator cost - I believe normal assault termies with SS/TH are about 45 points a model. SW is about 48 poins, the SS/TH costs 15 points. More if you replace one with another ranged weapon or melee weapon. Like DW armies, we also get Land Raiders as dedicated transports but if we play Champions or SW unleashed detachment, will not get objective secured.

 

3) SW chapter tactics - Normal SW is basically counter attack and Acute senses, the former makes us somewhat riskier to assault, while the latter makes outflanking more reliable. Unleashed detachment CUnning of the Wolf rules basically guarantees ONE unit in reserve coming every turn, while at the beginning of the game, we roll a dice for each unit and on a 6+, that unit gets outflank.

 

Champions of Fenris chapter tactics - Basically our characters have to challenge all the time, but we get preferred enemy. Also all Wolf Guard units (PA and TDA), and Thunderwolf cavalry get +1WS.

 

4) SW Formations - One thing to note is that we have two formation which basically GW cut and pasted from DA codex. One is THunderstrike, where a deepstriking unit of termies and a drop pod of Wolf Guard in PA come down in one reserve roll, and basically get twin linked on that round. The other is Arjac's shieldbrothers, where Arjac, a Wolf Guard IC, along with 5 SW Termies with SS/TH, get +1 Toughness base to base. Thankfully they didn't get smite which would just be trolling DA.

 

FYI, wolves apparently overcame their fear of teleportation as all our termies can deepstrike now.

 

Personally I still think DW armies rock, both in fluff as well as in game. On the unique side, you still have smite, and when combined with Belial or RW, basically still land where you want. SW, the only way to reliably teleport is teleporter homers on drop pods. No other way to reliably teleport as far as I see.

[Prot]

Wow. I had no idea it got so much better for you guys this edition. That's way better than before. I used to also use a lot of the unique load outs for combi weapons for my Wolves. But the price for what you get is always what bugs me. I never complain about what DA are capable of, just that we pay through the nose for it. That being said I had no idea you guys can basically come in one roll, twin link, and didn't have to use pods... wow.

 

All the other stuff is just gravy (challenges, etc)

[Tanyr]

There's nothing wrong with disliking teleportation! Much like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, I question the wisdom of voluntarily jumping into the warp with naught but the faith in a deity that denies its deification to safeguard one from growing a third nipple...and then being strangled to death by it.

 

I agree wholeheartedly on DW armies rocking, I love them to death as well, but I do hope that the latest few armies having minimally costed, minimally geared terminators that can be upgraded to suit continues on into our next codex. As i've a hundred PF/SB termies already, I doubt it would affect me overmuch, but I do love the ability to customize!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just bear in mind that our combi weapons and special weapons are not as cheap they used to be. Once upon a time, a PA Wolf Guard could arm combi weapons at +5 points. Now its double of that. Not to mention Wolf Guard can't be split off anymore and has a minimum cap of 5, so I can't just drop 3 PA with combi meltas in front of you, I have to take 5 minimum, which is quite expensive as need drop pod as well. Imagine 50 points for 5 combi weapons, plus WG which are pretty much Vanguard marines without heroic intervention. Frankly, deepstriking SW termies are more cheaper, if less reliable now.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I still want my ten points back too! :P That would nearly be sufficient to cover our overpricing by Vetock; DW are good, they just cost a little too much.

:D

s

[twopounder]

Keep the points the same and allow Cyclone Missile Launchers to use flakk rounds for free. I'd be happy.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I feel you Stobz. In a way, DA and CSM got the misfortune (or initial luck) of being the testbed for 6th Ed. Now I'm afraid both of you got hit by the codex creep, with everything else becoming more and more points cost efficient (Geedubs ploy for making one buy more models), whereas your point cost was the same.

 

For me, I think the way to balance DA is not in points cost, but simply the rules and wargear composition. DA and SW termies are supposed to be fully customizable compared to codex marines, so that should be our "tax" for more expensive TDA. But unfortunately, 6th Ed has far too may AP2 RANGED weapons that makes PA armies suffer and make Terminator a very risky proposition. As mentioned before, the sergeant being stuck with powersword is a bit ridiculous.

 

In a way, SW was balanced out that our special weapons are no longer very cheap or free when comes to 10 man squads of Grey Hunters. Still, we're hardly the most spammable AP2 weapon army. That would be Tau and Eldar and they're ridiculous Riptide and bladestorm weapons.

[twopounder]

I feel you Stobz. In a way, DA and CSM got the misfortune (or initial luck) of being the testbed for 6th Ed. Now I'm afraid both of you got hit by the codex creep, with everything else becoming more and more points cost efficient (Geedubs ploy for making one buy more models), whereas your point cost was the same.

 

For me, I think the way to balance DA is not in points cost, but simply the rules and wargear composition. DA and SW termies are supposed to be fully customizable compared to codex marines, so that should be our "tax" for more expensive TDA. But unfortunately, 6th Ed has far too may AP2 RANGED weapons that makes PA armies suffer and make Terminator a very risky proposition. As mentioned before, the sergeant being stuck with powersword is a bit ridiculous.

 

In a way, SW was balanced out that our special weapons are no longer very cheap or free when comes to 10 man squads of Grey Hunters. Still, we're hardly the most spammable AP2 weapon army. That would be Tau and Eldar and they're ridiculous Riptide and bladestorm weapons.

 

We play Dark Angels. We're used to being the test bed.