Interrogator Stobz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The thing about being the test bed is that GeeDub keeps failing the test. That is why we get left behind Oh well, back to painting Hellstrikes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Well at least this time, it is Space Wolves and Orks who will be the testbed for 7th Ed codexes. If anything, we will be the next to suffer the codex creep of 7th Ed. Hopefully Dark Angels will come somewhere in the middle of 7th Ed's life. We know that Grey Knights are next, but after that is anyone's guess. latest rumours says Necrons as the paperback has been removed from stores, or Blood Angels or Dark Eldar, the only 3 armies with softcover codexes. However, I hope they won't update you guys too soon. Basically when Wolves got updated, a lot of our weapons and costs got standardised with SM: Codex. But the cost was the removal of almost all the unique rules that made Wolves unique, such as the Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Wolf Tail Talisman, etc. In replacement, we got a lot of the "standard" rules like furious charge, mastercraft, shred, rampage etc. The net effect is that Wolves become a lot more similar to SM Codex in terms of costs, equipment and rules. And don't get me started on Logan Claus. If they ever update DA, I hope you guys won't suffer the loss of your rules and fluff. Smite, Inner Circle, Ravenwing skilled riders and hit and run, Belial's non scatter, these great rules make DA extremely cool, even if you guys suffer in balance and costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 It is likely optimistic to assume DA will get a 7E codex at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 . If they ever update DA, I hope you guys won't suffer the loss of your rules and fluff. Smite, Inner Circle, Ravenwing skilled riders and hit and run, Belial's non scatter, these great rules make DA extremely cool, even if you guys suffer in balance and costs. Well only smite is DA-specific Inner Circle is just fearless and hatred (chaos) generic rules Skilled riders scout and hit&run are just generic rules Grim resolve is just stubborn generic rules... What makes a chapter unique is not that he has unique rules, but unique set of generic rules. The main problem of the SW codex is the uselessness of their troops choice. They are too expensive and therefore I see lots of people taking the minimum and concentrating on thunderwolves or such things... Making the army lists not looking like a great company detachment So as long as GW don't make RW and DW too expensive to be really play (they are costly now but still good), there won't be a problem... I don't care if they remove the mass of redemption or standard of devastation I'll be fine anyway. For our 34pts ( 44pts - 10pt's for a power fist ) we get : Fearless Preferred Enemy ( Chaos Space Marine ) Split Fire and Deathwing strike. Though it seems nice for 34pts we cannot consider that it IS good to pay 44pts. Simple reason is that IF we had 34 pts terminators, we wouldn't give them ALL a power fist. Hence 44pts make us pay for an improved CC weapon we don't want. Actually I've thougt to a nice evolution for terminators in general that may help DA to have more unique squads of termi : making storm bolter counting as melee weapon in the hand of a termi That way, the sgt would get +1A if equiped with a power sword, but won't grant anything more for a PF/CF as they are specialist weapons. For further improvement we could get 35pts termis with power sword or power maul (leaving power axe to SW), that may be upgraded to PF for +5pts exactly like chaos termis. LC could be purchased for free as you gain shred but lose the shooting A (hence you won't profit from vengeful strike anymore) so it seems fair. That would make all termis more useful and allow us to get new options without necessarly needing a new kit as we have the termi power sword in the vet kit... What do you think of this idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 But as long as we have fun wielding the dark angels does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Uhm, I have no idea where you got the idea that Grey Hunters are useless. If nothing else, they are still tactical marines with counter attack, and we can still have our "ultra grit" loadout of BP, Bolter and CCW, its just that we have to pay extra to get the CCW now. They are still the meat of our codex, just not so powerful anymore. Also Blood Claws are finally given a good chance to be as good as Grey Hunters. In a sense, they are more flexible then ever, I can even shave points off to pay for the CCW by arming certain squads with CCW intended for frontline, while the rest have bolters and sit back in their rhinos to shoot or camp at objectives. Plus, we still get a second special weapon every 5 man instead of heavy weapon, which for the mobile grey hunters, is a plus. Point taken on smite being the only DA centric rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 *throws gas on the fire* a DW sgt has only a PS and a SB, but is stil 44pts, the same cost of a PF term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 That was kind of the point of the thread Typher mate ;) More gas is mentioning the loss of PF on the apothecary too :rolleyes: :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Or the 10 extra points for Librarian level 2. Or the oddball structure in Scouts and their upgrade costs compared to Codex: Space Marines. GW just needs to extricate its head from betwixt its buttocks with regard to using errata updates to adjust the points of things that are exactly the same so as to put them on par with one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 yet they changed the hellbrute cost in the csm faq. that is one of the things that really annoys me regarding gw, they change some things, but refuse (or simply dont care) to change others far more in need of change (the L2 librarian cost as stated above, the nephilin cost and rules (missile lock ? its a rule we actually can use now as oposed upon codex release)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 *throws gas on the fire* a DW sgt has only a PS and a SB, but is stil 44pts, the same cost of a PF term. And that's why I propose to make the SB counting as a melee weapon when taken by a model in termi armour... @ kasper : because sitting backyard only with bolters, with no HW is not really cost effective. I first thought that the Cost of the 2nd CCW was faire on a marine model with counter attack. But after talking a little I see it exactly like our DW sgt not allowed to swap his weapons. GW decided to make the GH fluffy by not giving them HW => make them CC squad, but if you want to equipe them for CC it will ccost you more than a single heavy weapon in a standard tactical. So you end up either with a costly CC squad or with a uncompleted support squad... It's the same thing for our sgt : the sword is fluffy but I see no reason to pay extra cost for a inferior weapon. Give him +1A and I'll be fine. Such as that : Deathwing terminator squad : 170pts Squad Composition : 1DW sgt and 4 DW terminators Weapons : Power sword and storm bolter Options : You may add up to 5 additional DW terminator for +34pts/model Any DW terminator may exchange its power sword for a power fist for +10pts For each 5 DW terminators, one DW terminator may : replace his storm bolter by a heavy flamer for +5pts replace his storm bolter by an assault cannon for +15pts take a cyclone missile launcher for +25pts Any model may replace its storm bolter and power sword by a pair of lightning claw for free by a thunder hammer and a strom shield for +15pts. Special rules for TDA : A model equipped with a TDA considers a bolter, a storm bolter, a combi bolter or a twin linked bolter as a Melee weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 *throws gas on the fire* a DW sgt has only a PS and a SB, but is stil 44pts, the same cost of a PF term. And that's why I propose to make the SB counting as a melee weapon when taken by a model in termi armour... @ kasper : because sitting backyard only with bolters, with no HW is not really cost effective. I first thought that the Cost of the 2nd CCW was faire on a marine model with counter attack. But after talking a little I see it exactly like our DW sgt not allowed to swap his weapons. GW decided to make the GH fluffy by not giving them HW => make them CC squad, but if you want to equipe them for CC it will ccost you more than a single heavy weapon in a standard tactical. So you end up either with a costly CC squad or with a uncompleted support squad... It's the same thing for our sgt : the sword is fluffy but I see no reason to pay extra cost for a inferior weapon. Give him +1A and I'll be fine. Such as that : Deathwing terminator squad : 170pts Squad Composition : 1DW sgt and 4 DW terminators Weapons : Power sword and storm bolter Options : You may add up to 5 additional DW terminator for +34pts/model Any DW terminator may exchange its power sword for a power fist for +10pts For each 5 DW terminators, one DW terminator may :replace his storm bolter by a heavy flamer for +5pts replace his storm bolter by an assault cannon for +15pts take a cyclone missile launcher for +25pts Any model may replace its storm bolter and power swordby a pair of lightning claw for free by a thunder hammer and a strom shield for +15pts. Special rules for TDA : A model equipped with a TDA considers a bolter, a storm bolter, a combi bolter or a twin linked bolter as a Melee weapon. I see you have some valid points regarding Grey Hunters, but I don't see them as too badly nerfed. Nerfed yes, but not not to the point of useless or totally points inefficients. We may not have combat squads and second heavy weapons, but we can still park some cheap 5 mans squads, as well as some expensive CC squads which are quite reasonable at CC, at least more than tactical marines. Not to mention we also have the ability to give a Grey Hunter a hidden powerfist that can potentially punk a Non-eternal warrior, making Grey Hunters a deterrent for many marine HQs anyway. So far the 5 man Grey Hunter team with a single plasma in Rhino has been working out for me in the few games I won. They basically follow behind the melta CC squad and support them, or while the CC squad is distracting the enemy, the 5 man squad zooms to objective or cover. If they get charged, they still have counter attack in a pinch. Back to the topic, I'm now somewhat convinced that maybe a fix in cost will fix much of your worries, giving space for more bodies on the ground or more efficient usage of points compared to regular marines, Space Wolves and Grey Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Do you really think that GW Will reduce some of our costa??? We are the Codex:overcosted Angels... For right point costs wait For HH DA books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Those will be overcosted too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Those will be overcosted too. Maybe not... In FW we trust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Those will be overcosted too. :PMaybe not... In FW we trust Luckily you guys aren't over costed cause you're exactly the same core as everyone else (so only things with jump packs are over costed). Your special units probably won't have jump packs so they won't be over costed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 3 points for a jump pack is overcsosted? Well, don't hold you breath wating to be satified with anything then. It would be nice to even have a veteran unit with a jump pack option for a chapter of...(dark) angels...with a sword and...wings...chapter symbol. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simiel Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 Or the 10 extra points for Librarian level 2. Or the oddball structure in Scouts and their upgrade costs compared to Codex: Space Marines. GW just needs to extricate its head from betwixt its buttocks with regard to using errata updates to adjust the points of things that are exactly the same so as to put them on par with one another. ML2 Dark Angel Librarian 100pts - Inner Circle ML2 Codex Librarian 90pts - Chapter Tactics ML2 Runepriest 95pts - Acute Senses - Counter Attack Generally I think Inner Circle is worth the extra 10 points, as having a fearless utility character anchoring a back line unit etc is extremely usefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I wouldn't bother on Librarian's cost anyway... If the rumours about the culexus are true, it would become an auto include unit to counter the eldar seerstar as well as multi psykers Deamons... As a consequence you won't need Libby as his own spells risk not to work and the assassin will provide a better protection any way... As for fun games... Why bother a 10pts difference in a game supposed to be fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 3 points for a jump pack is overcsosted? Well, don't hold you breath wating to be satified with anything then. It would be nice to even have a veteran unit with a jump pack option for a chapter of...(dark) angels...with a sword and...wings...chapter symbol. It's more that it's not effective for the points you have to pay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Or the 10 extra points for Librarian level 2. Or the oddball structure in Scouts and their upgrade costs compared to Codex: Space Marines. GW just needs to extricate its head from betwixt its buttocks with regard to using errata updates to adjust the points of things that are exactly the same so as to put them on par with one another. ML2 Dark Angel Librarian 100pts - Inner Circle ML2 Codex Librarian 90pts - Chapter Tactics ML2 Runepriest 95pts - Acute Senses - Counter Attack Generally I think Inner Circle is worth the extra 10 points, as having a fearless utility character anchoring a back line unit etc is extremely usefull. A Fearless character is extremely useful in anchoring a ONE back line unit of Stubborn, 3+ armor save, almost guaranteed to be in cover unit? Yeah, Fearless is a real life-saver in such a situation, as otherwise that one unit is simply going to run away every game (yes, sarcasm ;)). The only time Inner Circle even comes into play is when fighting one particular army (Chaos Space Marines), or when a unit has been beat the hell out of (i.e. Morale check time) and might have that 1-in-18 chance of failure pop up. So, are you argiung against me, or in support of me? :p ;) Anyways, we are paying for the *Librarian Level*, NOT Chapter Tactics. Besides, you will note that almost every other Chapter's Chapter Tactics is not passive in the way ours is, but is actively effective. We have to either be fighting Chaos Space Marines to get any benefit (limited to one opponent, but at least it is a directly active power), or "hope" that we are getting our butts kicked, because it is only then that our "thing" works. Yes, the main "thing" we have is something that influences the most passive aspect of the entirety of the game rules (Morale). Yes, we've got it so good. And so our Librarians are very much being needlessly penalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Egzackary; we pay points to lose less bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simiel Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 Or the 10 extra points for Librarian level 2. Or the oddball structure in Scouts and their upgrade costs compared to Codex: Space Marines. GW just needs to extricate its head from betwixt its buttocks with regard to using errata updates to adjust the points of things that are exactly the same so as to put them on par with one another. ML2 Dark Angel Librarian 100pts - Inner Circle ML2 Codex Librarian 90pts - Chapter Tactics ML2 Runepriest 95pts - Acute Senses - Counter Attack Generally I think Inner Circle is worth the extra 10 points, as having a fearless utility character anchoring a back line unit etc is extremely usefull. A Fearless character is extremely useful in anchoring a ONE back line unit of Stubborn, 3+ armor save, almost guaranteed to be in cover unit? Yeah, Fearless is a real life-saver in such a situation, as otherwise that one unit is simply going to run away every game (yes, sarcasm ). The only time Inner Circle even comes into play is when fighting one particular army (Chaos Space Marines), or when a unit has been beat the hell out of (i.e. Morale check time) and might have that 1-in-18 chance of failure pop up. So, are you argiung against me, or in support of me? Anyways, we are paying for the *Librarian Level*, NOT Chapter Tactics. Besides, you will note that almost every other Chapter's Chapter Tactics is not passive in the way ours is, but is actively effective. We have to either be fighting Chaos Space Marines to get any benefit (limited to one opponent, but at least it is a directly active power), or "hope" that we are getting our butts kicked, because it is only then that our "thing" works. Yes, the main "thing" we have is something that influences the most passive aspect of the entirety of the game rules (Morale). Yes, we've got it so good. And so our Librarians are very much being needlessly penalized. One of my points was that when totalled up the increased cost Master Level 2 is somewhat cancelled out by the utility provided by being Fearless. Comparing to Codex marines, only one Chapter tactic provides a direct benefit to the librarian model, ( unless he's on a bike, or really using that bolt pistol or wading into melee often ) and that is 6+ FNP and It will not Die from the Iron Hands. Sure fearless is very situation dependant and has a lot of factors involved, but in low points games ( smaller units ) or games when cover/deployment options are limited ( within 7" of the board edge ) having units run of the board before actually using them is a real danger and can be game changing, which has happened to me on several occasions ( damn you dice gods! ). Am I actually arguing that some of our generic HQ's are possibly under costed ? . ( I never said that, nothing to see here GW, move along! ) Sure Inner Circle is more effective against Chaos Space Marine scum, but by that argument Grey Knights are more effective against Daemons, Space chiwawa's are more effective against melee heavy armies, White Scars/Raven Guard/Blood Angels are more effective against static gun lines and Imperial Fists are better against Vehicle/Fortification heavy armies. Every marine army has a niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Sure Inner Circle is more effective against Chaos Space Marine scum, but by that argument Grey Knights are more effective against Daemons, Space chiwawa's are more effective against melee heavy armies, White Scars/Raven Guard/Blood Angels are more effective against static gun lines and Imperial Fists are better against Vehicle/Fortification heavy armies.Every marine army has a niche. A valid argument, if not for the fact that the Inner Circle Preferred Enemy rule only works against one army, while every one of the forces you sited have abilities that work against ALL armies. A bit of a difference there. Besides, all but GKs can can get the equivalent of our Inner Circle abilities, in addtion to their own Chapter Tactics, simply by fielding Chaplains. In this way even DA Interrogator-Chaplains are slighted, as they don't give squads they join a comparably increased level of effectiveness simply because the Inner Circle and Zealot rules effecitively give comparable benefits so far as the Morale effects are concerned. And so we lost out there too, gaining only part of the benefits of the Zealot rule (the re-roll to hit on the first round bit), and none of the Morale benefits (because Inner Circle already proivides them), which were not replaced by some other minor benefit (such as Fear). DA fall short yet again. DA Chapter Tactics is simply not comparable to those of other Chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 The stupid thing about our librarian is that costs the same when 1st level and more when 2nd level considering there isn't any profile change (more wound or attacks) that can exploit the IC rule... If our librarian should cost more for being fearless it should be 5/10 points more at 1st level and pay the same as vanilla for the 2nd level... About DA special rules... All vanilla Chapters get a set of 2 special rules for their chapter tactics... One for all the models (this represents the core of the chapter fighting style) and one for certain units (this shows the units the chapter most rely on)... DA in this thing are more lucky... We have grim resolve for all (even if our scouts don't get it and they cost more than vanilla ones) upgraded to IC for DW and most IC, and the special rules for DW and RW... I only complain that grim resolve give a malus too (while chapter tactics dont) and that our scouts don't get the chapter tactic... About terminators... Terminators are overcosted since 3rd edition (all terminators not just DA ones) and since then the vanilla terminators went down only 2 points from 42 to 40 and gained a 5++ save but they are still overcosted... DW adds on top of that the cost for the DW special rules but lose the Combat squad rule so 4 points for the upgrade to DW terminators is still too much... I always stated that vanilla terminators should cost 5 points more than CSM ones for the PF (but there is always the problem of the sgt with fixed PS that he cannot swap) and 1 point for ATSKF... 31+5+1=37 points/model... On top of that DW terminators should cost 3 points more for a grand total of 40... And DWK 43 point/model ofc... About RW... 6 points for a teleport homer is too much... Our RW bikes could drop in points from 27 to 24/25 and it would be fair... The same way BK/RWCS should drop from 40/42 points to 35... Then there are the overcosted LSV, DT and NJF and the non sense BoC... We seriously need more a rewritten codex than a FAQ/errata but i know we have to wait at least another year IMHO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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