New Grey Knights: Strike Squad Tactica

[lt051]

Bladeguard, having critique is ok, but can I suggest moving it to the pinned topic that serves as an open discussion?

 

Strikes and their effectiveness is obviously up in the air, after everyone has some games under their belt with the new setup we will be more set on how they work. And obviously even the depends on your meta

[Valerian]

 

Why is everyone griefing over Crowe? Crowe is one of the sickest HQ's we have (all of our HQ's are significantly better, but Crowe is by far one of the top choices).

 

His new challenge rules are fluffy and interesting (and I've always wanted Chaos Space Marines and us Grey Knights to have the same challenging rules, it makes our games so cool), and guess what? He's damn good in challenges! He will have between three and four, WS 8 (!), S 6 (with hammerhand), AP 2 attacks at I-step 6. When the opponent attacks back he'll have a re-rollable 2+/4++ because he gets to use both stances, AND should he die to your opponent he gets a single attack back. Doesn't sound as good as the original Heroic Sacrifice? Keep in mind that this is a free attack unlike the previous psychic power, and he can Smash to double strength since it's only a single attack. For free!

 

Does he lose these bonuses against basic infantry? Yes, but that's fine because he's an Independent Character now, and your squad should win combat handily while he slaughters the challenger. If you really want him to contribute in the fight against basic infantry, lets not forget that he's PML2 and has Cleansing Flame.

 

There's only one unit I'm excited to use in this new codex, and it's Crowe lol.

 

Edit: As to the usage of Strikes, I'm unconvinced that they're good for much of anything now. They're wholly overpriced given how inexpensive Terminators are, and Psycannons are significantly worse and more expensive now. The only reasonable approach to Strikes imo, is in Razorbacks with Incinerators. And honestly, Purifiers do it better.

 

Why AP2? Crowe's sword has AP "-"

 

 

Because Crowe has the Smash special rule in all Challenges, and Smash gives all of your attacks AP2, even when you're not using the special double-Strength 'Smash' attack.

 

EDIT: to AnImA8, I'd be a little more excited about using Crowe if he could Deep Strike with the rest of my army. 

[thade]

Folks, I'm going to set about nuking the off-topic posts in this thread...specifically posts that are directed criticisms toward other Frater and not about the topic at hand.

 

Attack the idea, not the person, and be respectful about it as you do, please. That, or this thread gets bombed from orbit.

[Ishagu]

Was the codex stripped?

 

Yes it was.

 

Did the things that stayed behind get cheaper, and in a few ways more effective?

 

Yes they did.

 

Can you ally in Inquisitors for a lot of the lost benefits of the old codex?

 

Yep

 

 

 

Cheer up guys. GW is heading in a different direction right now, but it's certainly one that is more balanced and standardised.

Grey Knights are hardly ever seen without support from other Imperial Forces in the lore so don't be afraid to plug holes in the codex with allies.

 

Librarians, Terminators, Dreadknights, Draigo... All pretty damn good!

[lt051]

Plus assassins rock by the looks of it now :D

[BladeGaurd]

for 115 pt you can take a suicidal incinerator strike drop squad.... been effective in the past and with proper placement vs the proper target they will be effective again.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Plus assassins rock by the looks of it now

If those rumours are right then they really rock.

Anti-Culexus tactics will be needed for any GK army, he shuts down psyker armies and massacres them in equal measure. I think a defensive screen of servo-skulls is called for if you think your opponent might field one. Obviously he rocks alongside GK so long as we can stay outside that 12" zone.

[lt051]

But inside of 12" we would help his shooting attack, and strong low ap shooting is something we need bad. Gonna give this guy a go Saturday I think. The other 3 look more even this time around

[BladeGaurd]

assassin use and killing of topic started

[Adeptus]

Did the things that stayed behind get cheaper, and in a few ways more effective?

 

Yes they did.

Except for Strike Squads, Rhinos, Razoracks, Purifiers, Paladins, Stormravens, Landraiders, most of our characters, Warding Staves, Halberds, Nemesis Swords, Stormbolters, Psycannons, and Dreadnoughts.

 

And that leaves... Terminators and NDKs?

 

Can you ally in Inquisitors for a lot of the lost benefits of the old codex?

 

Yep

I didn't start playing a faction of superhuman silver armoured daemon hunting warrior-mages just so I ally in some puny humans. *Sigh* I'm sorry for the tone, I just really hoped that with the removal of the Inquisition units from our Codex that we might get a stronger stand-alone codex. They told me Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, but I didn't listen...

[AnImA8]

Well, let's suppose for a moment that we are forced to take Strikes. It's not the only unit we can take, but lets imagine that we must have at least one or two squads of them. This might be the best way to develop a Strike Tactica as per IndigoJack and per the OP.

The first way that I would tackle the analysis of the Strike is to differentiate it from the Terminators. Why would we take Strikes over an equivalent points-worth of Terminators?

We know that Terminators are better in assault: they have more attacks per model, and 2+ armor mitigates whole swath of Power Weapons that affect Strikes. But the difference is not as great as it once was: Strikes now get access to the same weapons for the same cost as Terminators.

We know that they differ in transport options: both can Deep Strike and take Stormravens, but Strikes can take Rhinos and Razorbacks, and Terminators can take Land Raiders. In essence the primary difference here is that Terminators can assault out of their Dedicated Transports, and Strikes cannot.

SO now that I've gone over what everyone already knows at this point, what does all of this suggest about how to use either of these units? The answer is that Strikes are a mobile firing base that ought to be used in conjunction with their transports, whereas Terminators are the in-your-face gut-punching assault squad with Land Raider delivery system. If this sounds familiar, thats because this is essentially the same role-breakdown as before, the main difference being that the contrast is not as stark anymore.

When contrasted like this Strikes equipped with Psycannons can either sit back at 24" with Rhinos/Razorbacks as mobile cover, or they can push forward aggressively into 12" range to start using the Salvo 2 profile upon exiting their vehicles. The fact that we can't Assault after using our Psycannons like this is fine because it coincides with the turn we depart from our Rhinos and Razorbacks anyhow. This combined with an assortment of close combat weapons makes for a nice generalist unit, like Strikes were always meant to be.

The other option is that you specialize them in getting more up-close-and-personal by equipping them with the new, reasonably priced Incinerators. At this point we're sacrificing the ability to sit back and pick off our opponents for massed S6 flamer hits, which also works well from our transports. The damage output here is more significant against almost all infantry, but it is definitively lacking in flexibility--you must move forward to engage the opponent at Flamer distance.

Now I know that there's gonna be those pointing out that we could be utilizing Strikes' ability to Deep Strike. There are a couple of reasons why I shied away from talking about this. One of the reasons is GW still neglected to mark Strikes as teleporting specifically, so our newfound plethora of Teleport Homers do us no good here. Furthermore, the two best weapon options we have (the Psycannon and Incinerator) both need to be used within 12" after we Deepstrike. Personally I don't like Deep Striking to within 12" of the enemy, because I have horrid luck. If you're running the new Detachment option then this becomes a bit more viable since you can run to within range, but otherwise I feel like Deep Striking is a high-risk low-reward maneuver that can be achieved safer with vehicles and using cover.

Anyhow, that's what I got so far if anyone wants to add anything constructive

[Rommel44]

GW obviously didn't look these guys over, as I still find it surprising that they put all this effort into making Terminators a more appealing choice with there changes, but completely ignore the Strike Squads, who needed more of a fix then the Terminators. But I agree, there are only a few ways to run Strike Squads in this current edition: either by running them in Rhino's, Stormravens, or Razorbacks. The other option is to Deep Strike them in, which isn't that horrible considering that GK's literally became the Deep Striking army in this edition, giving us some tactical flexibility depending on the opponent.

 

The biggest problem I have seen with them is that the only thing Strike Squads have over Purifiers is that they are 5 points cheaper, which isn't great, and that they can Deep Strike. Purifiers can fulfill the same role as Strike Squads,  come with more Attacks, have Soul Blaze, and can get more Special Weapons, with there only real downside being that they have to be in transports to move around to make them more effective. No matter how I look at it, Terminators are the only way to go as the troop choice option for the GK's, unless there is a supplement book that comes out that makes Purifiers Troops, then I would prefer to go with that.

[AnImA8]

Don't forget too that Purifiers have no means of becoming Troops anymore. I am wholly convinced that players that know how to use their Troops will consistently beat out "Elite" armies because of Objective Secured. This is not to say that Strikes are good, or hold a candle to Purifiers, but it is to say that relying on Purifiers too much will leave you vulnerable when you're looking to actually secure objectives. And let's not forget that while Purifiers dish out a world of hurt unlike any other infantry, they are still only in 3+ armor.

 

So in terms of comparing Strikes and Purifiers, I don't think the comparison is a good one: Purifiers are there to clear a path, and Strikes are there to follow them up. I think Terminators do the latter better, but this is a thread about how to make Strikes work after all lol

[Happy-inquisitor]

Comparing Strikes with Purifiers quickly shows up that Purifiers are just all-round fantastic.

 

Aside from their lower cost the Strikes do have some things to offset their inferiority.

 

If you are playing the Nemesis formation they can join in with the deep strike strategy.

 

If you are playing standard CAD they have Objective Secured and they do have the option to deep strike up the table rather than sit in a metal box that increases the cost of the unit and maybe gifts your opponent First Blood.

 

If you are taking them as allies then they are the lowest troops tax available if what you were really after was Purifiers/Dreadknight/whatever.

 

Once Terminators have arrived on the table they are slow moving unless you sink a lot of points into moving them around. If you need mobile troops for a Maelstrom game the the price difference between Strikes and Terminators is huge.

 

Of course if everyone wants to rage-quit and sell their strike squads on eBay I won't mind but not would I want to buy masses of them.

[Rommel44]

Lol not looking to sell my squad of them, however I can admit I am having a hard time finding ways where I can use them. How many do you have and how will you be using yours?

[FL5]

Actually, my plan for strike squads hasn't really changed from the last book to this book.  Granted, it's only conceptual, as I've only just started constructing this force, but my plan for strikes was as follows:

 

1.  Take a full 10-man squad, and combat squad them.

2.  One combat squad gets both psycannons and 3 normal guys with swords.  This combat squad starts the game squatted on a backfield objective-secured maelstrom objective (or runs turn 1 up to a midfield objective) and acts as a 24" board control/area denial buffer while generating victory points.

3.  Other combat squad takes two hammers, two swords, and a sword Justicar w/ melta bombs.  This squad deep strikes on an objective further up in the field and/or goes hammertime on anything in your opponent's backfield that isn't properly protected.

 

Take two of those strike squads to claim 4 objectives.

 

Yeah, they're not cheap.  At 265pts per squad (and 530 for two!), that's a significant chunk of points, and might-as-well-be-immobile psycannons make them less flexible than they were before.  There are much more destructive units in the game for far fewer points, and it will be an uphill battle using strikes against optimized builds.  However, while they are no longer as effective at the old Eternal War missions, they're far from useless in Maelstrom missions.  Your opponents will be coming to you now, so having a couple of static midfield ObSec psycannon batteries in ruins is hardly a bad thing.  Play smart.  Play situational.  Play the board.

[Ishagu]

There's no way to fairly make Strike squads cheaper.

 

The price of a normal marine is 14 points, but a grey knight strike squad member has a power sword, storm bolter and is a psyker for only 6 points more.

 

I don't see the problem with using these guys similarly to tactical marines. 10 in a Rhino, take objectives and kill other infantry. But they also perform well in combat.

[Valerian]

There's no way to fairly make Strike squads cheaper.

 

 

They don't need to be made cheaper, but they need to be able to do something for your army that contributes in a  meaningful way.  With the old codex, and access to non-Salvo Psycannons, and even Psybolt upgrades (which they paid for both), they were able to do this.  Now that both have been removed, they can't really contribute to a low-model army as efficiently or effectively as they need to to justify their inclusion.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Infiltrate and Teleport Homers, however... ;)

[Adeptus]

Infiltrate and Teleport Homers, however...

Conceptually, Infiltrate doesn't sit right with me. I'd prefer them to have a turn 1 deepstrike or something. Or the ability to purchase something like that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Strikes fluff changed from the playtest dex to the actual 5th release.

 

Back in the Playtest, Strikes were the same unit as Interceptors (you just bought a PT upgrade...) and their fluff had them arriving at tactical locations prior to the main GK force.

 

Would would be better served by Infiltrate or Scout, rather than Deep Strike.

 

As at best, a first turn Deep Strike would have them arriving at the same time as the rest of the army.

 

And you want to precision strike your Terminators into the heart of the fighting! ;)  That's the GK way! :P

[Adeptus]

Strikes fluff changed from the playtest dex to the actual 5th release.

Back in the Playtest, Strikes were the same unit as Interceptors (you just bought a PT upgrade...) and their fluff had them arriving at tactical locations prior to the main GK force.

Would would be better served by Infiltrate or Scout, rather than Deep Strike.

As at best, a first turn Deep Strike would have them arriving at the same time as the rest of the army.

And you want to precision strike your Terminators into the heart of the fighting! That's the GK way!

I know, but having power armoured dudes sneaking around through the bushes with no one noticing (which is what Infiltrate represents) doesn't seem very Grey Knight-ish, if you know what I mean.

[Valerian]

Infiltrate and Teleport Homers, however...

Conceptually, Infiltrate doesn't sit right with me. I'd prefer them to have a turn 1 deepstrike or something. Or the ability to purchase something like that.

I know, but having power armoured dudes sneaking around through the bushes with no one noticing (which is what Infiltrate represents) doesn't seem very Grey Knight-ish, if you know what I mean.

Infiltrate is just a rules mechanic. It allows you to deploy outside of your deployment zone before the battle proper begins. Don't get stuck on thinking about this as "power armored troops sneaking around," because that doesn't have to be the justification for having the special rule. I agree with you, the Strikes are not sneaking around; that's not what they do. Instead they are, "deployed using precision teleportation strikes they lead the way for those that will come after, laying down homing beacons and securing remote or difficult to reach objectives." (7e codex page 14). The best rules mechanic that currently exists within The Rules, is clearly Infiltrate, which is a spot-on way to replicate a unit that uses precision teleportation to secure objectives, or prepare the battlefield prior to the arrival of the rest of the fighting forces.

[Adeptus]

Instead they are, "deployed using precision teleportation strikes they lead the way for those that will come after, laying down homing beacons and securing remote or difficult to reach objectives."

Agreed, but I'd really prefer to see them actually teleporting onto objectives.

[Valerian]

 

Instead they are, "deployed using precision teleportation strikes they lead the way for those that will come after, laying down homing beacons and securing remote or difficult to reach objectives."

Agreed, but I'd really prefer to see them actually teleporting onto objectives.

 

 

But they're supposed to do this before the battle even begins, which is why Infiltrate works.  Failing that, give them guaranteed 1st Turn teleports (whereas as the rest can either use the NSF Detachment for 3+ in the first turn) with a d6" scatter (Precision teleports).

Actually, I really like that.  Everybody else has to roll for it, but Strikes are guaranteed for a 1st Turn entry, with some degree of safety.