ChaosReigns Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hey guys, I need some tactical advice, as I've badly lost the last three games I've played against Space Marines. I don't mind losing, hell - I don't even mind losing badly if I know what I'm going to do differently next time - this last game in particular though, I'm kind of at a loss. I admit my first mistake was probably that I went out of my way not to take any competitive options. Another issue, certainly, was that there was no terrain that was really tall enough to hide behind - which meant that the Space Marine gunline had a full run of the field. It was a 1750 point game. My list was approximately as follows - I had a Chaos Lord on a bike with a bodyguard of five Nurgle Bikers, 5 Terminators with lightning claws in a Land Raider, 20 Chaos Marines (divided into two squads of 10, each with 2 meltas and a Rhino) with Mark of Khorne and extra melee weapons, a blob of 20 pistol and CCW Cultists, a Defiler and a Vindicator. His was basically a couple squads of 10 Tactical Marines with plasma guns and plasma cannons, a couple squads of Assault Marines with 2 flamers each, a squad or two of Devastators with lascannons and plasma cannons, 10 Scouts with sniper rifles. There might have been some Sternguard in there as well, I don't recall off-hand. Only vehicle was a Whirlwind. There was also a Chapter Master with the Burning Blade and a Chaplain with the Teeth of Terra. He was playing Raven Guard chapter tactics. The characters joined the Assault Marines, who were behind the gunline. He had strung an Aegis Defense Line across his deployment zone so all his units were behind it. Apparently Raven Guard automatically get Stealth on turn 1, which he said increased his cover save to a 2+ behind the Aegis (sigh) and of course all of his units were spaced out as far apart as possible, so my ordinance naturally did very little. Other than that it was sitting through 20 minutes of withering fire when his turn rolled around (and he rolled first turn). I rushed forward both Rhinos, the Bikes, the Land Raider and the Cultists (target saturation, I thought) but by the end of his second turn half of my army had been wiped out and I had failed to kill a single man on his side. Both Rhinos had been destroyed (that quad gun is vicious), the Bikers had been whittled down almost to nothing by Snipers (with their rending) and a hail of bolter and plasma fire. Then the Assault Marines leapt over the gun line (apparently they managed to land an inch away from the Tactical Marines, although it looked to me like the stragglers from the Assault Marines were intermingled with the Tacs and it was a tight matter to begin with, I didn't press the issue). Anyway, Assault Marines got the charge (apparently Raven Guard Assault Marines get to use their jump packs during movement and assault? Again...sigh) and, in tandem with their characters, butchered the Khorne Marines who were caught flat-footed after the destruction of their Rhinos. I called it quits and shook his hand at the end of his second turn. The Bikers and one squad of Khorne Marines were gone, almost all the Cultists were dead and the other squad of Chaos Marines was caught half-way down field without a ride - easy prey for his guns. I had failed to kill a single enemy model in return. So...yeah... It's aggravating because it seems like Marines have a lot of options that invalidate entire swathes of the Chaos army list, and besides the Obliterators and Heldrakes monobuild, there's not a lot Chaos can do about it. If it's not the above, it's Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Devastators ensuring that taking vehicles of any description is an exercise in futility. That or Iron Hands dumping a boat load of It Will Not Die Dreadnoughts into your deployment zone via Drop Pod on turn 1. Marines just seem like a much more dynamic army than Chaos, and our only answer, it seems, is that bloody monobuild that's universally despised by everyone outside of the Chaos community. Otherwise, we can't outshoot Space Marines and in some cases, can't even outfight them. It's frustrating to go into every game feeling like you're starting out at a disadvantage. Maybe I'm doing something grossly wrong? Maybe I'm just an idiot? Anyway, apologies for the semi-rant. As I said, I'd appreciate any tactical advice you guys feel like volunteering. So, thoughts, concerns, criticisms? Am I just doing it wrong? Anyone feel like throwing rotten fruit at me? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Point is that your list is not wrong, it is a solid allround list. The fact is the lack of terrain to cover your advance. I am lucky because I usually play on boards which are only shy away from being Cities of Death or Planetstrike boards. I never had much problems closing in with gunline armies. In your case to advance across the open field is suicide which can easily destroy your army even before it closes with the enemy. One solution would be MSU marines in as many Rhinos as you can field, proper target saturation. Another would be to Deep Strike your terminators as a distraction, a third option would be to use the artefact from BL to nova some units before you move forward. But above all stress for at least a 33-40% coverage of the board with terrain. I think there is also a snippet in the BRB that advises a percentage of terrain, use it as leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If you play maelstrom missions your opponent will have to come out from behind his wall at some point. Also in 7th the quad gun can only snap-fire at non-skimmer ground targets. Lots of big, line of sight blocking terrain also makes a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Those gun lines are nasty and unexpected. Just keep bumping you. But, as others have said, missions and terrain will not always favour him. Heldrake or two would also thin them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 To be honest the marine army was as fluffy as it gets and the raven chapter tactics is the weakest of the non FW ones. Wait till you play against a IH or WS "gunline" that not only shot more and harder, but also moves 12" per turn. as what to do. don't play singles. Dont run bikers, if your not runing an invisi star. Dont run defilers[100pts overcosted at least]. Don't run vindicators, by far one of the worse vehicles around[i have absolutly no idea why people try to use them. they don't work on empty tables, they don't work on terrain heavy tables. they are good against 1 type of unit and that type hasn't been rune en mass since 4th ed]. Terminators never worked as an assault unit for chaos.If you want to use terminators[and you I mean realy want] then take them with combis and never in a LR. A terminator unit that used the 200+pts of a LR to buy more terminators always works better. Although thise again kind of a forces an invisi star build. As a general rule do not worry about having an less efficient army,chaos has been super unflexible since the end of 4th ed, so either get used to it or play counts as space wolfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Hmm, I think he's cheating/mistaken, even with stealth units behind a aegis line would have 3+ cover save, not a 2+. They could get a 2+ if they went to ground per the line's special rules, is that what he did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Listen to all the advice above, its all solid. The last few games I've faced a similar list but with IF ct. I load one flank with all my fast always take 2 maulerbrutes and lots of spawn - swamp his line in one area and bring a flametorrent; drake or brand at least. Take more rhinos and play maelstrom - they are much easier to play the second time. If you can take FW, look at fire raptors and giant spawn they have changed my game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 You CAN add a Heldrake or two without running the same list everyone complains about. It's just a vehicle, use it like you would any other. It needn't always be attached to Plague Marines and Obliterators. People whined at GW so much about our turret mounted Baleflamer we got it taken away, so IMO the loyalist scum deserve all the burninations they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 What would have happened if you had used the same lists, except that you stay in cover and he comes to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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