Grey Knights Primer Mk2: Salvo Edition

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Hey guys. With the advent of our new codex...I mean enhanced FAQ...I mean formation, a great deal has changed, and some things have stayed the same. 

 

Like the old Primer, this new and improved version is designed to help new and veteran players alike in playing Knights. This is intended as an introduction to the army, rather than a be-all tactical guide. 

 

To avoid making this extremely lengthy, I will mention wargear and upgrades as relevant to the unit. I will also mention psychic powers in the same manner, as well as unique wargear or abilities the unit has. This avoids lengthy lists of what does and doesn't have certain things. It also means you can quickly glance at the relevant section and know generally how the unit operates. 

 

I will also mention the relevance of our new Nemesis Strikeforce alternate Force Org on a unit per unit basis. This avoids having to list out everything again, as the list of stuff that works in the Strikeforce is rather small (ie units with Deepstrike, to leverage the advantage it has). It is kinda structured in an odd way; 4 Elites slots when none of them can be used well (Purifiers can't Deepstrike, Paladins are worse now), only three Troops slots (I guess you're supposed to take full Terminator squads and combat squad them), and only two Heavy slots (so only two Dreadknights, as Purgators can't Deepstrike). Weird, but hey, that Run+shoot and everything landing off one good roll Turn 1 is huge. Allying a cheap Inquisition detachment for servo-skulls, and investing a Comms Relay will massively increase the effectiveness of the Nemesis Strikeforce though, so leaves some points spare for that. 

 

At the end of the Primer I'll mention ancillary stuff like good Ally options, Fortifications that suit us and so on. I'll try and keep this short, as this guide is more about pure Knights rather than Allies to it. 

 

So, lets jump into it;

 

HQ:

 

Grandmaster:

 

Mastery 2, Chapter Master statline and either Telepathy or Divination for his powers (don't roll Sanctic, Pyromancy or Telekinesis). Very few other armies get such a fearsome melee hero and a Mastery 2 psyker with access to the two best lores in the game in the same package. He is a plasma pistol shy of 200 points, but there is a good reason for it. He fits into both normal lists and the Nemesis Strikeforce, due to his TDA. 

 

Upgrade wise, a nemesis hammer is the obvious choice now halberds are useless. AP2 melee is very relevant in 7th, plenty of enemy MCs and characters have either high Toughness or a 2+ save to tank damage. A S8 force hammer deletes most things it touches, and with four such attacks at WS6 you will kill most things that challenge you. The cost of his psycannon has more than halved, so its a very worthwhile option if you have some points spare (at BS5 as well). Our second best Warlord option, given he's the toughest hero we have and the most dangerous to try to assassinate in melee. 

 

As far as Warlord traits go, ignore our unique ones, they're almost uniformly mediocre to terrible. Warlord traits rarely matter much anyway, its cool to roll a nice one on Command or Strategic tables, but don't rely on it. This is where 'Grand Strategy' was killed and its corpse defiled into randumb tables. Thanks GW, I sure love losing unique abilities that helped the army function, and having no control over which tactic I'll be benefiting from. 

 

Relic's wise, Cuirass of Sacrifice is the obvious choice. FNP and IWND are amazing buffs on an already tough hero, and make him an absolute nightmare to face in a challenge without either S8 or AP2 (ideally both). Even against ranged attacks, you can tank S7 or less shots and sometimes even regen lost wounds. The rest are trash or not relevant on a Grandmaster. 

 

Librarian:

 

Mastery 3 in TDA, for just 135 points. Yeah. Talk about value. Now, he comes with a warding stave default, but that's okay because unlike Grandmasters, Librarians should not be in melee if you can help it. Adamantium Will and a psychic hood on a Mastery 3 means enemy maledictions and witchfires are going to be dispelled with ease, 3+ with a re-roll of 1's to Deny is insanely strong psychic defense. Like the GM, right at home in a Nemesis Strikeforce, although his ranged options are weaker (one use plasma or melta gun). 

 

Upgrade wise, besides the Mastery 3, you can give him a combi-melta for the normal price, which is nice. The only relic of any interest to the Librarian is the Domina Liber Daemonica. This isn't taken for the extra power (Sanctic isn't worth wasting your psychic slots on, given your army has most of the good powers and the Primaris is very cornercase), but for the re-rolls to 1's when casting Sanctic powers within 6". This makes your squad (and maybe 1-2 near it) very reliable at getting 'Hammerhand' and 'Banishment' off. Seeing as 'Hammerhand' is how Knights stay relevant in melee, this can be important or even game-winning. Whether its worth the price of a powerfist is up to you, but you can't deny its actually useful in more than one matchup. In anti-Daemon matchups, stacking 'Banishment' onto stuff like Horrors, Bloodthirsters or Lords of Charge (or the dreaded ScreamerStar) is very relevant, as every negative modifier you get onto them dramatically increases how many unsaved wounds you'll cause. 

 

Honestly, just go Mastery 3 and leave it at that. He's dirt-cheap at what he does, and his two lore options (Telepathy or Divination) are very useful for the army. 

 

Brotherhood Champion:

 

I dunno what to say. He's more expensive than a Mastery 3 Librarian, but he does nothing for the army besides fight in challenges really well. He's only marginally cheaper than a Grandmaster, but worse at close-combat in many ways and has no options to swap his sword or take relics to buff him. The extra wound is welcome, and his two stances are great (AP2 attacks or re-roll all saves), but that price hike is just too much for ultimately a second string HQ choice. Don't get me wrong, with 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' he is scary as hell to fight (as is his parting blow if he dies, which with 'Force' turned on could nuke an enemy hero who fails his save). Losing 'Herald of Titan' (re-rolls on the charge) is huge though, as he now does absolutely nothing for his squad beyond bring more of the same powers and be good in challenges. 

 

Crowe is in the same boat. Despite (finally) gaining IC status, and 'Cleansing Flame' being a pretty good power on a close-combat orientated hero....he's just too expensive. Here the Grandmaster comparison is especially bad, as the GM can get a good gun, better psychic powers that help the army, a better melee weapon, more attacks and a better statline overall...and he's not stuck with a terrible Warlord trait. 

 

They're somewhat useable in friendly games, but in a competitive list the Grandmaster and Librarian blow these out of the water. IC status on Crowe is a very welcome change though. They're also unusable with the Nemesis Strikeforce, as neither can Deepstrike. 

 

Brother-Captain Stern:

 

Okay, so 'Zone of Banishment' has gone from teamkilling to being very good at putting 'Banishment' into effect against Daemons (12" AOE from Stern instead of single target). He also has 'Sanctuary' by default, along with the usual 'Hammerhand' and of course his souped up 'Banishment'. The problems lie in his other two features. He has a nemesis sword, arguably the most useless of all (at least halberds grant some bonus). With 'Sanctuary' you can still buff him to a 3+ invul and his unit (assuming a TDA unit) to a 4+, which is cool. 'Strands of Fate' is cool but it ultimately grants the enemy too much power if you use it, and its retroactive (so going second doesn't deny them re-rolls). He fits into a Nemesis Strikeforce, although the Grandmaster is better as is the Librarian. 

 

If you're fighting Daemons, or if you are bringing an Allied DA Librarian with a PFG, his 'Sanctuary' can be pretty useful. Otherwise, you can build a better Grandmaster. Never use 'Strands' though, granting re-rolls to your opponent is very dangerous. 

 

Tech-Marines:

 

Note that these guys no longer have a Force Org slot, they can be taken 0-1 per HQ you take. With all the funky Inquisition stuff and grenades stripped out, a lot of the point of this guy has gone as well. He can still take a conversion beamer though, albeit for a total of 110 points on a single-wound model. Bro Champs got an extra wound, still didn't change the price of a Tech-Marine, he lost useful wargear options, he has no re-roll repairs power anymore...I mean come on. Oh wait, he can take Relics, maybe...no, Cuirass requires you to be wearing TDA to swap for it. Nevermind. Even though he can attach to your squads thanks to IC status, he's just so expensive and does too little to matter. Add in our lack of vehicles normally, and his one relevant ability (Blessing of the Omnissiah) barely ever gets used.  Only for normal lists, as he cannot Deepstrike and thus has no place in the Nemesis Strikeforce. 

 

 

.................and that's it folks. No more Mordrak, and Draigo is now a Lord of War (ie if you're actually taking Lords of War, take a superheavy instead). 

 

 

Elites:

 

Purifiers:

 

They went up in price, but amusingly GW forgot to actually nerf them. Combined with the changes to nemesis weapons and our other wargear, and Purifiers remain our biggest asset. Their high unit cost is annoying however, a full vanilla squad is the same price as a Land Raider, before any upgrades. Warp Charge 2 (which includes when you combat squad, so a single full squad using one Elite  slot can generate 4WC, which is huge). Fearless. 2A base. Four special weapons in a full squad. 'Cleansing Flame'. Soul Blaze on all melee attacks (because why not right? Purifiers really suck at dealing with hordes amirite?). I mean, what more do you want? They kill stuff and refuse to run until they're all dead. 

 

Two paths present themselves at this juncture. On the one hand, you can go quad psycannon and camp at 24". This build is 310 points before any melee upgrades (which you probably want, as they can expect to get charged), getting close to 350 with nominal upgrades like falchions and a few hammers mixed in. 16 psycannon shots (on the move they only shoot 8 at 12" range, wow isn't Salvo great) still deletes units very effectively, especially with 'Prescience' turned on. The reason you pay such a huge premium is that unlike Sternguard or Devastators, you can kill most things that charge you without breaking a sweat, and even Terminators don't like going up against you given your huge output of S6 and the squad hammers backing it up at S10 AP2. They still die like Tactical Marines to ranged attacks though. Defensive tech is a must to keep them alive. 

 

The other option is to take a Raven, load them up with melee upgrades and the massively cheaper incinerator (for the price of one psycannon you can almost given them the full 4 incinerators, internal balance FTW), and go aggressive. With this build you're looking to combat squad, as virtually nothing requires the entire unit to charge. A combat squad with a hammer, two falchions and two incinerators will stomp most non-melee units into mush even without 'Hammerhand' up. Doing this to an enemy gunline can be devastating if timed right. It does rely on Reserve rolls and your opponent not nailing the Raven before it can even get them into melee. 

 

They're still our best PA unit hands down, and the best PA unit in the game for their price. Take two full squads if you can, enjoy 8 warp dice before even counting the rest of your army. 

 

Paladins:

 

Hey so if Purifiers went up in price but got buffed as well, surely Paladins are better right?

WRONG

Still 55 points. Still just two wound WS5 Terminators, right down to the same powers and same prices for wargear. I mean, before Paladins were considered overpriced, and they had free weapon swaps on everything but falchions. Now, you pay the same price as everyone else for your nemesis upgrades, which boil down to falchions (cheap, +1A) or hammers (over twice as expensive, but they hit hard). 

 

The one ray of light is that the Apothecary went from being absurdly overpriced to just being an expensive upgrade to an expensive unit. However, when you factor in the hidden tax on nemesis upgrades, the savings aren't actually that big. Paladins are now the only unit with access to Brotherhood Banners (identical to Company Banners now, re-roll morale within 12" and +1A to models in the unit), and one unit per army can take the Nemesis Banner (Fearless instead of re-roll Morale, Daemons within 12" treat terrain as dangerous). 

 

There really is no excuse for this insanity. The Riptide has been in existence for an entire edition now, and they still think TDA is that good? Sigh. So much wasted potential. Paladins have some of the most interesting background of any unit, but their rules incarnation is absolute garbage. The same points in normal Terminator is so much better. Wasted opportunity. 

 

Dreadnoughts:

 

Oh good, they're now Elites, so they'll no longer compete with Dreadknights. Hmm, no more psybolts...and they're more expensive now with the same loadout (2x twin autocannons). Hey, at least Venerable is cheap! Erm...plasma cannon is good right? Or maybe twin-lascannon, and then twin autocannon on the other arm? Oh, and you're still a Psychic Pilot, and can give yourself a 6+ invul! That's going to be so handy against the massed S6/7 which strips away your HP in a single shooting phase!

 

Well, on the plus side, we now know why Dreads are so rare in normal Marine armies. Thanks for lowering us to their level GW. Hate for us to be different. 

 

............and that's it. New units? Only real armies get those silly. 

 

Troops:

 

Terminators:

 

Yeah, Troop Terminators. Best thing about that? They went down in price. Not even kidding. 37pts for a falchion-armed Termie, 43 points for a hammer Ter....wait a minute...that's 80 points for the two of them. Psycannons went down by 5 points though. Lets compare;

 

(old codex)

Justicar w/halberd, Terminator w/halberd+psycannon, Terminator w/halberd, 2x Terminators w/hammers

(225 points)

 

(new codex)

Justicar w/falchions, Terminator w/falchions+psycannon, Terminator w/falchions, 2x Terminators w/hammers

(217 points)

 

..........so I actually save 8 points. I lose I6 attacks (halberds are garbage now), but I get more of them at I4 now. Yeah, time to field even more Terminators than before right? Saving 8 points per squad will add up so fast. I have to admire you GW. You lead us on, step by step...and only at the very end do we realise its a con. 

 

On a more serious note, Terminator squads are the go-to choice for the Nemesis Strikeforce. They are tough, can Deepstrike, and fill Troops slots. They bring Relentless psycannon to alpha strike enemy vehicles or MC's, which is huge as when you land Turn 1 you Run and shoot. They will steamroller over enemy units that can't get past their 2+ save. Just be aware though, you're unlikely to ever have more than 20-30 of these guys in a normal list. Every casualty hurts, and they are the most susceptible unit in the game to bad save rolls (as you lose so many points every time someone dies). 

 

Strikes:

 

10pt Justicar tax. Okay. Psycannons are now 15pts, only fire 2 shots at 12" if you move...on a unit with Deepstrike. Nemesis upgrades stayed largely the same, falchions are much cheaper now though. 

 

In a standard list, you will take two combat squads with a incinerator each to fill your mandatory 2x Troops slots. Not even the caveat of S5 storm bolter, as psybolts are completely gone. Even with nothing else on them, that's 230 points ie almost same as a full Purifier unit, or around the price of a typical Terminator combat squad. No more cheap Henchmen to fill your mandatory, you now pay at minimum nearly Landraider price to have functional filler in Troops. Even Marines don't have put up with this stupidity. I mean really, no other Troops choices, and they went up in price while Terminators came down (slightly)? This is beyond a joke.  

 

In a Nemesis Strikeforce, these can be useable if you can't afford Termies. Turn 1 Run+Shoot can get incinerators deep into enemy gunlines, and they're the perfect sacrificial unit to eat Interceptor or take out annoyances like Pathfinders, Marker Drones, sniper units, Lootaz, heavy weapon teams etc. 

 

A note on dedicated transports. No more Psychic Pilot (only Dreads retain it). Terminators get all the Land Raider variants as their option, although melta still exists, but hey at least no more competition with Dreadknights in Heavy Support!

Strikes, Purifiers and Purgators get Rhinos or Razorbacks. No more psybolt, no more Psychic Pilot, and you now pay standard Marine prices for them, which is to say too much in a game where HP exists and AV11 is paper mache to the mass S6/7 shooting of other armies. Considering our squads are already very expensive, paying for transports that vanish Turn 1 is a very bad idea. Land Raiders may make a comeback, but the jury is still out, and for the same investment you could just field more actual Knights instead (which take longer for the enemy to kill and do more). 

 

............and that's it. Two Troops choices. Sure feels great to be in the same company as Necrons (who universally revile their Troops and largely ignore them as a factor in list-making) and Orks (who at least have the caveat of great unit variety in every other army slot). Termies are better in larger games where you can afford them, whereas Strikes perform adequately as Troops filler in smaller games. 

 

Fast Attack:

 

Interceptors:

 

Justicar and three others with falchions, one guy with an incinerator. Huge price reduction, that unit is now only 151 points. Teleport shunt is still in, as is being a Jump Infantry unit. These guys function as an alternative method of alpha-strike to the Nemesis Strikeforce. Unlike Deepstrike though, teleport shunt has a number of advantages. Firstly, it has a range of 30". Secondly, the unit starts on the board Turn 1. Thirdly, shunting does not trigger Interceptor. Finally, short of clustering up into nice incinerator or (we'll get to DK's in a moment. heavy psycannon blast) shaped blobs, its very difficult to stop a shunting unit from landing next to its chosen prey. Now that falchions are a reasonable price, and the incinerator is so cheap, they can fight like Assault Marines. The loss of psybolts and the changes to psycannon have changed their role from a shooty backfield harassment into a true melee unit. Get stuck in with them. It will be hard to find room for them in smaller games, but in larger lists they provide both bodies, mobility and firepower in a package only outclassed by the DK (and barely). 

 

Storm Raven:

 

5pts cheaper....but lost its powers and Psychic Pilot. Meh, never was the biggest draw about it, so this hurts less than Razors/Rhinos. No more psybolts is a big deal though, it really makes the hurricane sponsons a lot less useful, as well as nerfing the twin assault cannon option. The loss of mindstrikes is annoying (retaining it as an alternative missile option, like how Valks can swap for rocket pods or one-use ordnance missiles), but stormstrikes are a powerful anti-tank and anti-FMC/Flyer weapon. Combined with a twin-assault cannon turret and a twin multi-melta in the nose, and you've got a powerful ground and air gunship. Now that Dreadnoughts are irrelevant, the need for anti-tank is very high for our lists. Ravens also pull double duty as our most reliable assault transport, able to bypass the obstacles that Land Raiders suffer from (slow, ground based, easy melta and high Strength melee target etc). Interceptor still screws you over, although a Skyshield pad could help with that (getting you on the table Turn 1). 

 

...........and that's all once more. Two choices. Slow clap for games design guys. 

 

Heavy Support:

 

Dreadknight:

 

Rather like with Purifiers, someone seems to have forgotten to nerf this guy when they updated. The nemesis greatsword no longer re-rolls everything forever (which was insanely powerful), but master-crafted helps with one miss per turn, and its still buffing him to S10 AP2 attacks. Also, being specialist (like his off-hand powerfist), you still get 4 attacks base. His teleporter went down massively in price, so its even more of an auto-include now. Oh, and he's still a character MC, which means you can issue and accept challenges. He dropped 'Hammerhand' (literally pointless on a model with maximum Strength anyway) for 'Sanctuary', which is a huge buff. Now you can turn on a 4+ invul with a few warp charges, which makes it that much harder for AP2 to kill him, and means he can go toe to toe with enemy MC's and expect to survive, 

 

The guns have also improved, yes even the gatling psilencer (the infantry version is still abysmal). Now the heavy psycannon has a 6 shot mode (MC's are Relentless thank Throne) for breaking open tanks and hurting other MC's, in addition to its existing blast mode. The gatling psilencer is now somewhat...okay...ish. I mean, still 12x bolter shots with AP-, but if you turned on 'Force' in your psychic phase, it now causes Instant Death. Which means it now can actually banish Greater Daemons, Hive Tyrants, Carnifex, Exorcrines...and if Centurions, Obliterators or Biker Nobz fail a save against it, they too pop instantly. This also means it denies FNP, which is great for killing cheap chaff that have it (Gaunt broods under 'Catalyst', CSM Plague Zombies etc). Heavy incinerator is still very good, but we have so much anti-infantry nowadays between Purifiers and the psycannon nerf encouraging incinerators on other PA units...I'd be opting for the heavy psycannon because we desperately need mobile anti-tank way more. 

 

205 points gets you a DK with greatsword, heavy psycannon and teleporter. Needless to say, if he were a Troops choice, we'd field nothing else. Fielding 2+ of these is most lists is very strongly advised. You need multiples to avoid getting focused too easily, and they hit like a truck covered in promethium. 

 

They took already the strongest unit of the old codex, and made him even stronger and shootier. Internal balance? Sounds like heresy. 

 

Even more awesome about this guy? You can make him your Warlord. Yep. Your T6 2+/4+ 4-wound Jump MC is your Warlord. Dare people to try and get that 'Slay the Warlord' VP. Good luck. 

 

Purgators:

 

Night Vision. No, I'm not joking. The dedicated fire support unit in the codex has Night Vision. Not Skyfire. Not Interceptor. Not Ignore Cover. Not Tank Hunters. Not Monster Hunters. NIGHT. VISION. I mean, at this point I'd expect the next codex to make it a unique psychic power, that requires 6 successful warp charges to turn on. 

 

But wait, maybe they're cheaper than Purifiers?

 

Justicar w/sword, 4x Purgators w/psycannons, 5x Purgators w/swords

(270 points)

 

Flame Knight w/sword, 4x Purifiers w/psycannon, 5x Purifiers w/swords

(310 points)

 

By 40 points. The Purifiers have Fearless, WC2, an extra power (Cleansing Flame), 2A base (thus making the nemesis upgrades on them even more value, as it now costs the same on both units) and live in Elites, the least contested slot in the codex. Oh, and when they combat squad, they generate 4WC. And each combat squad is still a very scary assault unit, due to aformentioned statlines. 

 

But you can take 4 psycannons on the Purgators at 5-man right? For a total cost of 170 points. Meaning, no ablative wounds, so as soon as you lose any models you're either losing your Justicar or a psycannon. There is a reason people take full strength Devs or Havoks, its to keep the heavy weapon guys alive for as long as possible. 

 

GW are not even trying at this point. They don't want you to take this unit at all anymore. 

 

...............................................

 

 

And that's it folks. Draigo would be included, but being a Lord of War means you fulfill none of the mandatory slots, and you compete with super-heavies for space. For the record, he's an absolute beast in combat, he's now 5pts less than a Land Raider in price (which is at least close to Grandmaster price, close enough to make him useable in normal lists) he has all the best powers from 'Sanctic' and Mastery 2 ('Gate' in particular is great), still packs a storm shield, and now has AP2 in melee finally. Which is all fantastic, but he no longer makes Paladins Troops, and he's not a HQ choice. So...when would you ever take him? Apocalypse. 

 

 

Now I turn this over to you guys. Comments, additions and discussion, ahoy!

 

 

edit: Changed some entries to reflect recent experience. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Nice!

Will edit in comments.

.................and that's it folks. No more Mordrak, and Draigo is now a Lord of War (ie if you're actually taking Lords of War, take a superheavy instead).

HQ

You should mention the Brother Captain. His states aren't really that worse than the GM. And if you don't want PML2 or a Hammer, a 4 point upgrade can give you the extra 1A he misses from the GM.

Crowe has lost rending, so outside of challenges he's AP- in Melee....

Elite

Paladins have retain the same cost for their Psycannons. So they're not more expensive on them.

Still, the comparison to GKT got worse. 5 Paladin with 2 Psycannons is still 315. But not 10 GKT with 2 Psycannons is only 370. Not 450 as it used to be!

The extra saving of 55 points no longer lets you take a 5 man squad in its place.

Troops & Fast

These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along. Move along.

Heavy

DreadKnights as Troops. That's what unbound is for. Run nothing but these guys. And laugh. GW missed a trick by again not letting us take two of the same shooting weapon. /sigh

How about 9 NDK at 1,850? http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=new_post&f=107

Purgation Squads. You might consider a few 5 man Squads with 4 Psycanons. Except Psycannons suck on anything not TDA.

Lord of War

You'd use Draigo outside of Apoc. He's a beast, even nerfed down to S4/T4. Gate works well with our Teleport Homers. But only if you stick him with other Grey Knights, Dark Angels, or Hammernators.

[Valerian]

 

And that's it folks. Draigo would be included, but being a Lord of War means you fulfill none of the mandatory slots, and you compete with super-heavies for space. For the record, he's an absolute beast in combat, he's now 5pts less than a Land Raider in price (which is at least close to Grandmaster price, close enough to make him useable in normal lists) he has all the best powers from 'Sanctic' and Mastery 2 ('Gate' in particular is great), still packs a storm shield, and now has AP2 in melee finally. Which is all fantastic, but he no longer makes Paladins Troops, and he's not a HQ choice. So...when would you ever take him? Apocalypse. 

 

 

If you were already thinking about taking a Grand Master and a Librarian, then it makes sense to consider taking Draigo.  You'd still be fulfilling your HQ requirement with the Librarian, so having Draigo in a LoW slot doesn't affect you in any negative way.  He actually comes at a pretty reasonable price, considering that he is such a beatstick, but also has a few abilities (Gate of Infinity, for one) that would mesh very well with certain builds and tactics.  If, however, you were going to save points by only taking one HQ choice, then generic Grand Master or Librarian that can access different Disciplines (like Divination, of course) would probably meet your needs better.

[casb1965]

Why not throw a Warding Stave on one of your Terminators? Give the unit Adamantium Will and the Terminator +2S all for the loss of 1A and the cost of 1pt.

[IndigoJack]

Isn't it just a little too early for something like a primer? The codex isn't even officially out yet, and I highly doubt you've done enough playtesting to fully comprehend how much these changes affect us. I'm all for a thread about GK first impressions, but I don't think anyone has more than a couple games in with the new codex and can't rightly tell someone how GKs should be played.

[Kenderleech]

well, we didnt get anything new, and we knew how the old stuff played out.   We know how salvo works, and we already had given up on most dreadnoughts.  I think its fair.

[IndigoJack]

I'm sorry,but knowledge cannot be substituted for experience. You may know how salvo works, but until you've experienced how it works in the context of the new GK codex, this is all conjecture. Theory-hammer is all well and good, but all of us should be hesitant to say things like, "this is good," or, "this is bad," until we've actually had some experience under our belts.

[Templar1]

Personally, I love Draigo. He just became supremely amazing.

My army will now consist of Interceptors, stormravens, terminators, grand masters and Draigos!

 

...oh wait it already did. >.>

Okay, I'll just buy a Draigo model then.

 

My Grand Master is still armed with a Halberd though....not too bad I still say. With Hammerhand still S7, which will destroy a lot of MCs and other characters. TheArmour of sacrifice or whatever it's called is just beastly good. Grand Masters are now murder machines.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You should mention the Brother Captain. His states aren't really that worse than the GM. And if you don't want PML2 or a Hammer, a 4 point upgrade can give you the extra 1A he misses from the GM.

I should, but I'm not making a seperate entry. There is literally no list that won't take the Grandmaster over him. +1A and Mastery 2 is a huge upgrade and is unlikely to to be passed over. Its like saying people won't take the Mastery 3 upgrade on a Libby (which is even cheaper).

Crowe has lost rending, so outside of challenges he's AP- in Melee....

Yeah....I'll add that in. The assumption is though that either him or BC you're always challenging and fighting in challenges, otherwise they're both quite naff.

Paladins have retain the same cost for their Psycannons. So they're not more expensive on them.

True, but now Paladins pay for anything but swords as their nemesis weapon, so hidden price hike. I sure do love standardised wargear tables, don't you?

You'd use Draigo outside of Apoc. He's a beast, even nerfed down to S4/T4. Gate works well with our Teleport Homers. But only if you stick him with other Grey Knights, Dark Angels, or Hammernators.

The thing is, he's another Landraider pretty much, on top of whatever you invested in HQ already. He's really good, no question, but in that army slot and for the same investment (either Lord of War or elsewhere in the Force Org), you can do more. It's the same problem Ghaz suffers from.

Why not throw a Warding Stave on one of your Terminators? Give the unit Adamantium Will and the Terminator +2S all for the loss of 1A and the cost of 1pt.

Because they don't need it. They already Deny enemy maledictions and Witchfires on a 5+, re-rolling 1's. And if you're that worried about enemy mindbullets, a Librarian should be your HQ (as he comes with it standard and has a psychic hood to cover multiple squads). +2 Strength is great until you realise you're AP4. On a Librarian it isn't such a big deal, because he's not a combat hero primarily (he's better than some, but his real strength is his Mastery 3 in either Telepathy or Divination).

Isn't it just a little too early for something like a primer? The codex isn't even officially out yet, and I highly doubt you've done enough playtesting to fully comprehend how much these changes affect us. I'm all for a thread about GK first impressions, but I don't think anyone has more than a couple games in with the new codex and can't rightly tell someone how GKs should be played.

What I've written so far is meant to be draft man. I fully expect I'll be changing whole sections once we've all had some games and figured out some new combos. One of the things I've missed on my first pass is the ready access to teleport homers we now have on all our characters. Any Justicar, Flame Knight, Tech-Marine or HQ can get one now, which is especially relevant on Interceptors (who can position a teleport homer for Turn 2 landings very accurately and way up the field). Some new strats incoming with that, maybe.

I'm sorry,but knowledge cannot be substituted for experience. You may know how salvo works, but until you've experienced how it works in the context of the new GK codex, this is all conjecture. Theory-hammer is all well and good, but all of us should be hesitant to say things like, "this is good," or, "this is bad," until we've actually had some experience under our belts.

Salvo is atrocious, ask Noise Marines. 12" range on our supremely expensive units if we move is pathetic. You either have to go all TDA or wait until you're camping to fire psycannons efficiently.

My Grand Master is still armed with a Halberd though....not too bad I still say. With Hammerhand still S7, which will destroy a lot of MCs and other characters. TheArmour of sacrifice or whatever it's called is just beastly good. Grand Masters are now murder machines.

AP3 though. Don't get me wrong, S7 AP3 at I5 with force is scary as hell, but once you fight something in 2+ armour it falls off a lot. I'm confident you can run a hammer on your GM and probably not die before you get to swing back (2+/4+, plus if you're in Cuirass you get FNP and IWND as well). Very little can survive S10 AP2 force.

[Sigvard]

Paladins:

 

Hey so if Purifiers went up in price but got buffed as well, surely Paladins are better right?

WRONG

Still 55 points. Still just two wound WS5 Terminators, right down to the same powers and same prices for wargear. I mean, before Paladins were considered overpriced, and they had free weapon swaps on everything but falchions. Now, you pay the same price as everyone else for your nemesis upgrades, which boil down to falchions (cheap, +1A) or hammers (over twice as expensive, but they hit hard). 

 

The one ray of light is that the Apothecary went from being absurdly overpriced to just being an expensive upgrade to an expensive unit. However, when you factor in the hidden tax on nemesis upgrades, the savings aren't actually that big. Paladins are now the only unit with access to Brotherhood Banners (identical to Company Banners now, re-roll morale within 12" and +1A to models in the unit), and one unit per army can take the Nemesis Banner (Fearless instead of re-roll Morale, Daemons within 12" treat terrain as dangerous). 

 

There really is no excuse for this insanity. The Riptide has been in existence for an entire edition now, and they still think TDA is that good? Sigh. So much wasted potential. Paladins have some of the most interesting background of any unit, but their rules incarnation is absolute garbage. The same points in normal Terminator is so much better. Wasted oppertunity. 

 

I don't know what you guys are complaining about 55pts for a 2 Would Psyker in Terminator Armour....Pfft the rest of us Marines have to pay 65pts a piece for our ML1 Psykers and they don't have TDA :-P

 

**I joke**

[Toldavf]

I'm liking the psylencer, I'd take allot of divination on my characters anyway for the amazing buffing. If I get misfortune even once I'd end up with a pretty nasty monster slayer. Provided the model with it is mobile enough to get in range and still fire, only really 2 options for that and the dread knight stands out more then terminators.

 

[Adeptus]

 

My Grand Master is still armed with a Halberd though....not too bad I still say. With Hammerhand still S7, which will destroy a lot of MCs and other characters. TheArmour of sacrifice or whatever it's called is just beastly good. Grand Masters are now murder machines.

 

AP3 though. Don't get me wrong, S7 AP3 at I5 with force is scary as hell, but once you fight something in 2+ armour it falls off a lot. I'm confident you can run a hammer on your GM and probably not die before you get to swing back (2+/4+, plus if you're in Cuirass you get FNP and IWND as well). Very little can survive S10 AP2 force.

 

 

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand, anything that can cut through his own 2+/4++ is likely to kill him outright, so the most likely result IMO is that both he and his opponent will die in the first round of combat. I actually used to run a sword on my GM since he was sitting pretty on a 3++ in combat, and a 2++ in combat with Sanctuary.

 

If he's gonna die anyway, maybe it would be better to give him his I5 so that he can at least strike against a lot of other units before they get to swing? With the Glaive he stands a good chance of chopping lots of stuff down before his unit gets attacked. And on the note of his unit, there will also be lots of S10, Ap2 force hammers in there to kill things so does the GM really need to double up on that?

 

Thoughts?

[Templar1]

 

 

My Grand Master is still armed with a Halberd though....not too bad I still say. With Hammerhand still S7, which will destroy a lot of MCs and other characters. TheArmour of sacrifice or whatever it's called is just beastly good. Grand Masters are now murder machines.

 

AP3 though. Don't get me wrong, S7 AP3 at I5 with force is scary as hell, but once you fight something in 2+ armour it falls off a lot. I'm confident you can run a hammer on your GM and probably not die before you get to swing back (2+/4+, plus if you're in Cuirass you get FNP and IWND as well). Very little can survive S10 AP2 force.

 

 

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand, anything that can cut through his own 2+/4++ is likely to kill him outright, so the most likely result IMO is that both he and his opponent will die in the first round of combat. I actually used to run a sword on my GM since he was sitting pretty on a 3++ in combat, and a 2++ in combat with Sanctuary.

 

If he's gonna die anyway, maybe it would be better to give him his I5 so that he can at least strike against a lot of other units before they get to swing? With the Glaive he stands a good chance of chopping lots of stuff down before his unit gets attacked. And on the note of his unit, there will also be lots of S10, Ap2 force hammers in there to kill things so does the GM really need to double up on that?

 

Thoughts?

 

That's my logic. If he's getting hit by AP chances are it's something like a powerfist, so he's screwed anyways. If he goes first, he at least has a chance. And a good chance against other 3+ units.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand, anything that can cut through his own 2+/4++ is likely to kill him outright, so the most likely result IMO is that both he and his opponent will die in the first round of combat. I actually used to run a sword on my GM since he was sitting pretty on a 3++ in combat, and a 2++ in combat with Sanctuary.

 

If he's gonna die anyway, maybe it would be better to give him his I5 so that he can at least strike against a lot of other units before they get to swing? With the Glaive he stands a good chance of chopping lots of stuff down before his unit gets attacked. And on the note of his unit, there will also be lots of S10, Ap2 force hammers in there to kill things so does the GM really need to double up on that?

 

Thoughts? 

 

(shrug) We had the same arguments last edition too. If you're going into a tournament situation, you'll inevitably fight something that has 2+ armour and laughs at your AP3 melee (it was why Draigo was so shunned up until recently). If you only fight 3+ save characters on a regular basis, take the Soul Glaive (its absurdly good against anything not in 2+ armour, just turn on Force and watch them evaporate). If you fight 2+ saves, or find you need to wound more reliably (I fight a lot of MC's and high Toughness heroes locally, so Strength is important), the hammer is the scariest melee option in our codex bar none (its even more deadly than Draigo). Unwieldly is a pain, but it needs some kind of drawback. 

[AnImA8]

That's my logic. If he's getting hit by AP chances are it's something like a powerfist, so he's screwed anyways. If he goes first, he at least has a chance. And a good chance against other 3+ units.

I always hated this dilemma with my GM's. Seemed like if I used the sword, he could never kill anything and eventually that 3++ would fail, and if he had the Daemon Hammer, he'd get gibbed simultaneously which wasn't a good trade due to his prohibitive cost.

-----

Overall, I agree with this primer for the most part: I think RD has described my angst and rage at GW for this codex fairly well lol.

My one and only disagreement--and this should be no surprise to you, RD --is that I do think that our Anti-Tank game has been improved by this codex, and we're not as hard pressed as we were last edition. Although I'm frustrated as hell by the changes to both Dreadnoughts and Strikes, at the same time because Dreadnoughts are Elites now, and LR's and Razorbacks can be taken as Dedicated Transports, we can now see a LOT more anti-tank whether from Lascannons or Multi-Meltas.

That's not to say that Stormravens shouldn't be dedicated AT, but it is to say that TL-MM on the Raven, in conjunction with MM or LC Dreadnoughts, and TL-LC Razorbacks/Land Raiders, can create a decent amount of Anti-Tank for us.

[Gentlemanloser]

Having just looked at the new SW Codex, I'm sadened by our Techmarine.  Thiers is 25 points cheaper, comes with a Tunderhammer.  And can take Servitors.

 

For some reason, our Techy not only didn't want to step on the Inquisitors toes by taking Servitors when they had them, but now they're gone, forgot how to requisition some of his own...

[Captain Coolpants]

Hate this salvo so much lol.

 

They've essentially taken away our strength 7 shooting, but given us the possibility to strength 7 cc attack..

 

And they took away our strength 5 psybolts for 20pts... and given us strength 5 helberds for 20pts for a full squad..

 

I'd just rather have those strengths at range, because strength 6 with hammerhand was fine Before.

[Guest arbitor marduk]

I actually like the new update!, seems like they'll do better in games now that in the previous book

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I actually like the new update!, seems like they'll do better in games now that in the previous book

 

Not sure if serious...

[Guest arbitor marduk]

Yeah im serious, having had experience going against them and they havent actually beaten any of the armies i play (necrons, guard, chaos marines) i can only say that the update will be an improvement

[lt051]

Yeah im serious, having had experience going against them and they havent actually beaten any of the armies i play (necrons, guard, chaos marines) i can only say that the update will be an improvement

I like you optimism, but unless your area uses no ap2 and everyone just loves charging the enemy with tac marines, this update won't be better unless you spam our 2-3 good units

[Guest arbitor marduk]

 

Yeah im serious, having had experience going against them and they havent actually beaten any of the armies i play (necrons, guard, chaos marines) i can only say that the update will be an improvement

I like you optimism, but unless your area uses no ap2 and everyone just loves charging the enemy with tac marines, this update won't be better unless you spam our 2-3 good units

I guess I'll have to see when i go up against them, hopefully its not too bad but my opinion of just reading it they dont sound too bad, though it may be different when it comes to them in game

[skarn]

i don't mind pallies - 5 with apoc, banner, 2 psycannons & 4 hammers, plus stern (for auto sanct) & draigo (for tanking) is a huge points investment (825), but its a pretty durable deathstar - draigo has 2++, stern 3++, the pallies 4++, and everyone has a 2+ and FNP.
I'm playing triple riptide and the TWC/vindie/new flyer SW tomorrow (1500 points) and am going to run it. I'm adding 1 min unit of strikes, a couple of teleporting baby carriers and an inquisitor with 3 skulls for helping out with deepstrike accuracy.

[Guest arbitor marduk]

Triple Riptide :O, but fair enough, you'll have to let us all know how the game goes! Though I'll be hating the damn xenos and loyalist scum ;)

[Adeptus]

(shrug) We had the same arguments last edition too. If you're going into a tournament situation, you'll inevitably fight something that has 2+ armour and laughs at your AP3 melee (it was why Draigo was so shunned up until recently). If you only fight 3+ save characters on a regular basis, take the Soul Glaive (its absurdly good against anything not in 2+ armour, just turn on Force and watch them evaporate). If you fight 2+ saves, or find you need to wound more reliably (I fight a lot of MC's and high Toughness heroes locally, so Strength is important), the hammer is the scariest melee option in our codex bar none (its even more deadly than Draigo). Unwieldly is a pain, but it needs some kind of drawback.

But how important is it for the GM himself to be providing the kills. Can't he just let the Hammer toting Terminators do the damage when he runs into something with a 2+ save, and then he returns the favour when the unit encounters anything else?

 

I guess what I'm really asking is, now that the Sword on my GM is useless, should I swap it to a Halberd or a Hammer, lol!

That's not to say that Stormravens shouldn't be dedicated AT, but it is to say that TL-MM on the Raven, in conjunction with MM or LC Dreadnoughts, and TL-LC Razorbacks/Land Raiders, can create a decent amount of Anti-Tank for us.

I was annoyed when we lost Mindstrike missiles, but I actually quite like the new ones as well. I always used my Stormraven for anti-armour and anti-flyer, so having access to another 4 S8 Ap2 missiles might be good for that turn when you absolutely positively have to crack that enemy armour.