Grey knight fire support?

[BladeGaurd]

With the leak of the new codex I wanted to get people thoughts on the role of fire support.

I see the fallowing options: razorbacks, purgation squads, dreadnoughts/v dreadnoughts, and dreadknights.

Which do you like, which do you dislike and why on both and any other thoughts.

 

I like razorbacks and v dreadnoughts for fire support with a mix of lascannons and plasma between the selection.

I believe the dreadnought is not worth the price compared to the upgrade to v dreadnought.

I dislike purgation squads are situational because first turn they will be moving into position, I might also do a mix of psycannons and psylencers in them because they are both mainly anti infantry even though I waist the psylencers vs vehicles with some extra bodies so my weapons do not die.

I am not a fan of the dreadknights as fire support and see him more as hand do hand support that shoots while he moves up, but I put him here because of the 3 range weapons could be vary useful as range support and can carry 2 of them.  As fire support I go heavy incinerator and heavy psycannon with teleported as optional depending on if I wanted to deepstrike him or not.

[lt051]

I plan on using dreadknights and a vendread w/missile and las. Razorbacks are good too, but if go with twinlinked las instead. Just personal preferance though

[Gentlemanloser]

Heavy Psycannon / Gattling Psilencer Dreadknight.

 

200 points on the nose.

 

Sure, only 24" range, so if you've the points to space, throw him a PT.

 

But he's shelling out 6 x S7/AP4 and 12 x S4/AP- shots.

 

For the cost of 5 'nilla Terminators (with 4 wounds, T6 and a 2+/4++ - with Sanctuary - save)

[boreas]

Pretty much the same, except, I'd go H-Incinerator + H-Psycannon unless I know I'm fighting Daemons/Nids (nids... poor nids...)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I see the fallowing options: razorbacks, purgation squads, dreadnoughts/v dreadnoughts, and dreadknights.

 

Razorbacks are garbage now, no price reduction, lost Psychic Pilot and psybolts, and they're still easy First Blood AV11

Rhinos don't even have guns, and again, easy First Blood

Purgation squads are unusable

Dreadnoughts lost psybolts, at least they still have Psychic Pilot and Venerable isn't absurdly overpriced anymore. Mediocre but usuable. 

Dreadknights and Ravens are our real fire support. 

[BladeGaurd]

Stormraven is unreliable because it is a reserve roll. It might come one turn 2 or 3 or not till turn 4. other then a its anti air abilities I find a stock land raider is more useful as both a transport or a fire platform and it is there turn 1.

 

As for razorbacks why should they have a price reduction, are they not inline with the standards of other forces?  If you want it to live longer stick the razorback in ruins or cover, especial with the strategic tables cover ruins trait.  Most people I play against through there AT shots at land raiders and dreadnoughts and ignore the razorback, sort of like with sentinels and vipers.

[ChaoticEric]

Razorback with lascannon/plasma, tl lascannon and tl assault cannon is 5p cheaper now than before?

 

Used to be 45+35, is now 55+20?

 

I'll be trying two with lascannon/plasma to get some ap2 shooting.

 

As for fire support I guess the land raider deserves a mention even if it's very expensive. I usually run a god hammer pattern with a multi melta which does have some fire power even if it's expensive as hell.

[Drifter155]

Landraiders with objective secured can cover multiple duties, including fire support and backfield objective holding.

[ChaoticEric]

How about buying a land raider as dedicated transport for a troops choice but loading it up with purifiers instead? I think that's a scary proposition for most opponents?

[Landrick]

How do land raiders hold up this edition compared to ravens?

[Kilofix]

Somehow I still think Plasma is a gap that needs to be filled against opposing TDAs, Oblits, Centurions, MCs, etc.

 

I know the usual response is just close combat them but even "any Joe's" PowerFist vs GKs can do some damage that could have been avoided with some up-front Plasma shooting.

[BladeGaurd]

How do land raiders hold up this edition compared to ravens?

If you want a second turn charge it is the only way to go. I find they work well for my normally aggressive play style. The trick is either getting first turn or deploying them well. There is also the old world war 2 tank equations, 1 tank had the power of 1 tank but 2 tanks have the power of 3 tanks. This is referring to offensive and defensive power and it really holds true with land raiders, but that is 500 pt investment so I tend to build an army around its use if I do use it or put 1 in to draw all the fire to it.

Ravens on the other hand are cheaper and harder to hit but can not perform a turn 2 charge, the real attraction to the raven to me is it is still our only anti air model.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Somehow I still think Plasma is a gap that needs to be filled against opposing TDAs, Oblits, Centurions, MCs, etc.

 

I know the usual response is just close combat them but even "any Joe's" PowerFist vs GKs can do some damage that could have been avoided with some up-front Plasma shooting.

If you need plasma get inquisitor henchmen. I do not think for one moment the game designers intend you to ebay your inquisition models, 7e is designed for you carry right on using your inquisitors with no meaningful penalty.

[ChaoticEric]

 

Somehow I still think Plasma is a gap that needs to be filled against opposing TDAs, Oblits, Centurions, MCs, etc.

I know the usual response is just close combat them but even "any Joe's" PowerFist vs GKs can do some damage that could have been avoided with some up-front Plasma shooting.

If you need plasma get inquisitor henchmen. I do not think for one moment the game designers intend you to ebay your inquisition models, 7e is designed for you carry right on using your inquisitors with no meaningful penalty.

Except the henchemen can't be objective secured any more like they could with Coteaz? I for one agree, I think henchemen belongs in the elites and I will probably ally with an inquisitor and one squad of henchemen, always viewed them as allies before as well since they weren't grey knights :)

[Drifter155]

 

How do land raiders hold up this edition compared to ravens?

If you want a second turn charge it is the only way to go. I find they work well for my normally aggressive play style. The trick is either getting first turn or deploying them well. There is also the old world war 2 tank equations, 1 tank had the power of 1 tank but 2 tanks have the power of 3 tanks. This is referring to offensive and defensive power and it really holds true with land raiders, but that is 500 pt investment so I tend to build an army around its use if I do use it or put 1 in to draw all the fire to it.

Ravens on the other hand are cheaper and harder to hit but can not perform a turn 2 charge, the real attraction to the raven to me is it is still our only anti air model.

 

And three are very hard to deal with.... I have found an opponent can often cheap shot one (melta Sternguard for example) but dealing with two more is quite difficult.

[Valerian]

Rhinos don't even have guns, and again, easy First Blood

Don't have guns? Sure they do. They come standard with Storm Bolters

[Captain Coolpants]

Plus 2 guys can 'pew pee' from the top hatch haha

[lt051]

Buy a second storm bolter and hunter killer missile, it's a waste not to

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Stormraven is unreliable because it is a reserve roll. It might come one turn 2 or 3 or not till turn 4. other then a its anti air abilities I find a stock land raider is more useful as both a transport or a fire platform and it is there turn 1.

So? People still take Heldrakes and it has the same issue. Also, if you're that worried about waiting for it, take a Comms Array or a Skyshield landing platform.

As for razorbacks why should they have a price reduction, are they not inline with the standards of other forces? If you want it to live longer stick the razorback in ruins or cover, especial with the strategic tables cover ruins trait. Most people I play against through there AT shots at land raiders and dreadnoughts and ignore the razorback, sort of like with sentinels and vipers.

Do you play only at 3k points or something? When can we afford to take that much armour? Also, I wouldn't rely on rolling the right Warlord trait as part of your strategy. They're inherently randumb.

The reason Razors were taken last edition was because we could spam them for cheap with Henchmen. Now that's no longer possible.

How do land raiders hold up this edition compared to ravens?

Meltaguns exist.

Somehow I still think Plasma is a gap that needs to be filled against opposing TDAs, Oblits, Centurions, MCs, etc.

Allied Inquisition can help with that, with plasma cannon servitors. You could also go with Long Fangs packing lascannon. Centurions also provide a lot of AP2 with their grav cannons, although they're very expensive.

If you need plasma get inquisitor henchmen. I do not think for one moment the game designers intend you to ebay your inquisition models, 7e is designed for you carry right on using your inquisitors with no meaningful penalty.

I think a minimum investment of 220 points in Troops is a pretty big penalty.

And three are very hard to deal with.... I have found an opponent can often cheap shot one (melta Sternguard for example) but dealing with two more is quite difficult.

750 points, before upgrades. If you only play 3k games, sure, that's maybe doable. But back in reality, where 1500-2000 is the usual game size, triple Land Raider lists are unplayable. Not to mention that at 3k, people can have a lot of cheap and mobile melta, which will assuredly cost less than your Land Raiders and kill them all in about 3 turns (at best).

Don't have guns? Sure they do. They come standard with Storm Bolters

It might as well be unarmed, for the all the good that does.

Plus 2 guys can 'pew pee' from the top hatch haha

Salvo friend ;)

Buy a second storm bolter and hunter killer missile, it's a waste not to

No the real waste is buying easy-to-kill transports that die Turn 1 to even moderate attention from the enemy.

[Ushtarador]

Triple Land Raider lists are very well playable, and they are very solid and hard to deal with (bar some lists that hardcounter them, e.g. necrons). Don't underestimate their staying power in todays meta!

However, I don't think you can do it well with Grey Knights, that's true. Double Land Raiders were very good with psybold ammunition and deathcult assassins which could shred everything on the charge, but now they lost a lot of firepower and we simply don't have any good unit anymore to put inside

I agree that GK vehicles are pretty much dead at the moment (except for storm ravens), they lost all the things that made them good (no psychic pilot, salvo psycannons, no more S6 razorbacks, no more S8 autocannons, no more S5 hurricane bolters). I'm very sad about that, but yeah, GW...

[Drifter155]

Triple Landraiders is very viable in 1500-1850 points. I have had great successes with them. Now that dedicated transport raiders are objective secured they have had yet another string added to their bow. 

 

They are immune to all shooting below strength 8, have potms so they can strike a huge variety of targets and can transport squads of terminators (our new go to troop choice). They do require very careful positioning, especially during deployment.

 

I wonder if the Water Warrior tactic is viable again now in this edition?

[ChaoticEric]

Triple Land Raider lists are very well playable, and they are very solid and hard to deal with (bar some lists that hardcounter them, e.g. necrons). Don't underestimate their staying power in todays meta!

However, I don't think you can do it well with Grey Knights, that's true. Double Land Raiders were very good with psybold ammunition and deathcult assassins which could shred everything on the charge, but now they lost a lot of firepower and we simply don't have any good unit anymore to put inside :(

 

I agree that GK vehicles are pretty much dead at the moment (except for storm ravens), they lost all the things that made them good (no psychic pilot, salvo psycannons, no more S6 razorbacks, no more S8 autocannons, no more S5 hurricane bolters). I'm very sad about that, but yeah, GW...

How about putting purifiers inside? They can shred most things on the charge as well?

 

I think hordes are not going to appreciate up to four incinerators charring them before the assault and against more robust enemies the high number of ap3 attacks, perhaps even at s6 with hammerhand, is going to get most jobs done?

[JCarter]

The problem with using inquisition resources is that the resources have been removed from the dex. Now a "codex" costs at least $100 and half of it (the online half) is only available to persons with the proper electronic devices. Some of us don't have ipads. It appears that GW intends the GK to not be survivable on their own in heavy combat.

[IndigoJack]

You don't need an iPad for the inquisition codex. There's a ebook version as well that's available in epub and mobi formats. Also, you're given permission to print the codex out for your own personal use. Assuming you're using a personal computer and have access to a printer, you can buy the ebook and print it out. It's perfectly legal and no iPad required.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Triple Land Raider lists are very well playable, and they are very solid and hard to deal with (bar some lists that hardcounter them, e.g. necrons). Don't underestimate their staying power in todays meta! 

 

The changes to the damage table in 7th do benefit high AV, but melta still pings down your HP as do other heavy anti-tank weapons (S10 railgun, MC's in close-combat, meltabombs etc). I mean sure, you roll over second-string armies like Orks with impunity, but at a tournament you'll get Fire Dragon'd or whatever early on and lost huge chunks of your army in a few models. 

Triple Landraiders is very viable in 1500-1850 points. I have had great successes with them. Now that dedicated transport raiders are objective secured they have had yet another string added to their bow. 

 

What happens when your Land Raiders are flaming wreckage though? How do you come back from their loss? 

 

This is my exact issue with these skew lists. You skew high AV, and yet your heavy investment into it means if they hard-counter, you have no backup plan. Knights in particular can't do this, as we pay through the roof for all our units as is. 

 

I wonder if the Water Warrior tactic is viable again now in this edition?

 

 

Water Warrior was never viable competitively. It worked well for one player, and I found his writings on the matter interesting if a bit misguided. Also, we're talking about an edition of the game so long ago, any of his insights are stale and well out of date. 

How about putting purifiers inside? They can shred most things on the charge as well?

 

They are more cost-effective than Terminators, but there are a multitude of ways to deny a ground assault from reaching its intended target. Some of them don't even require killing the Land Raider, they just delay you and re-direct. That's why Ravens are superior, they're cheaper and they fly over all those shenanigans and have Flyer defenses.