Iron Priest & TWC

[Valor]

I know the idea has been tossed around a lot on here, but has any one actually used an Iron Priest on a TWM to tank for their TWC. Massed bolter/STR 5 shooting has already put a lot of wounds on my TWC, does his cheap 2+ help out enough to make him worth it? I'm picturing running him in front, then Look out sir'ing the nasty stuff to a SS or Harold behind him. Again I'm not looking for theories behind it, I'm asking for people who have actually used him and if he was worth t or better off spending the points elsewhere. Thanks!

[The Rose Princes]

I have, he's not. 

 

Again I'm not looking for theories behind it, I'm asking for people who have actually used him and if he was worth t or better off spending the points elsewhere.

 

i have.
it's not.
wrong role for that model.
don't waste your 100 ponits if that's all you're gonna do with him.

[Valor]

Perfect. Thank you.

[MeatGrinder]

Please don't take yes or no answers and be happy with them, you won't learn anything if you dont know the reasons behind them.

 

My Iron priest on thunderwolf has seen me decent success, but I wouldnt be letting him soak bolter fire, he only has 2 wounds, let a pleb TW die instead. Better still to give him cyberwolves and let them soak fire.

 

Something people may not have realised, is that servo-arms are AP 1. Meaning he has 3 attacks at s10 ap2, and another at s10 ap1, all rending. He wrecks tanks. and hes only 105 points.

[Leif Bearclaw]

That's not how Servo Arms work now. They're 'just' an additional AP1 power fist. So on a thunderwolf the Priest either has 4 S10 AP1 attacks, or 4 S10 AP2 attacks with concussive.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

An alternative idea I have been toying with is allying in a Chapter Master from C:SM.  They get expensive fast but they make really good tanks with that EW shield.  (If we had an EW option I wouldn't even consider this.  Iron hands for more tankiness with IWND or White Scars for hit and run.  TWC with hit and run...  :drool: I don't know if it is worth it or just to throw more TWC models into the mix.  But that is my idea for a competitive setting.  Ideally I could add some SM bikes for grav weapons and maybe a thunderfire cannon because I want artillery.  And it gives me something to do with my DV bikers.

[Rift Blade]

Gotta agree with Meatgrinder on this. Have not even played a game of 7th yet(life/work keeps intervening) but I used IP on tw w/cyberwolves in 6 th withthe old codex & they almost always were worth it be it as a distraction unit or actually making it into combat against enemy vehicles or even rushing over to repair one of my own(OK, this only happened once but it's an option). Our new dex is to new I think to draw any hard conclusions yet. And everyone's play style is different. What works for one person does not work for another. Give it a try & see for yourself. My 2 cents.

[skeletoro]

two ways of deciding if it's worth using a model to tank, IMO.

 

First, survivability per point. Against AP3 a TWM iron priest is twice as survivable as a stormshield TWC at about twice the price. Against AP2 the iron priest does very poorly though, and against AP4+ he's twice as survivable as a vanilla TWC but two and a half times the price. So he's not particularly cost effective as a tank and in fact he's a liability as a shooty tank because you don't have control over how wounds are allocated.

 

the first metric tells you if it's worth spending the points to get an iron priest as a dedicated tank and the answer seems to be probably not. The second metric tells you if it's worth using the iron priest as a tank, given that you have one. Once lists are built and the game has begun, points costs are largely irrelevant and the real question is, what is the expected usefulness of the model over the remaining course of the battle? Much more complicated question, really. But generally it will hunger on whether you prefer a few high strength AP 1 attacks or a bunch of s5 rending attacks. Depending on the makeup of your opponent's list that thunder hammer and servo arm may not be particularly useful.

[Kassill]

As one who also used him in 6th he and his pups are a great underestimated unit. Generally my tanks and other TWC were my opponents focus and often times the IP came in swinging harder than they had anticipated. I wouldn't personally have this guy tanking as a wound shield. Run him separate with full cyberwolves on a flank and watch him wreck.

[IronFather84]

Personally I use them and I like them. I think they only got better with the new codex. Cyber wolves are now T5 and don't drag your toughness down and can soak up wounds for you. I use them as a break away vehicle killer and have has decent enough success that I continue to use them. Plus I think they are fun and look good and that's what the game is all about. With the champions of fenris FOC you need an Hq and two elites and having two mounted iron priest I fulfill my compulsory requirements then get to spend the rest of my points on TWC (all with +1 WS) and fenrisian wolves. I think people also underestimate this unit as well (as well as fenrisian wolves) and then get caught with their pants down so to speak. I say go for it and give it a try.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

Personally I use them and I like them. I think they only got better with the new codex. Cyber wolves are now T5 and don't drag your toughness down and can soak up wounds for you. I use them as a break away vehicle killer and have has decent enough success that I continue to use them. Plus I think they are fun and look good and that's what the game is all about. With the champions of fenris FOC you need an Hq and two elites and having two mounted iron priest I fulfill my compulsory requirements then get to spend the rest of my points on TWC (all with +1 WS) and fenrisian wolves. I think people also underestimate this unit as well (as well as fenrisian wolves) and then get caught with their pants down so to speak. I say go for it and give it a try.

I don't know where you are looking but cyberwolves are T4 now.

[MeatGrinder]

 

Personally I use them and I like them. I think they only got better with the new codex. Cyber wolves are now T5 and don't drag your toughness down and can soak up wounds for you. I use them as a break away vehicle killer and have has decent enough success that I continue to use them. Plus I think they are fun and look good and that's what the game is all about. With the champions of fenris FOC you need an Hq and two elites and having two mounted iron priest I fulfill my compulsory requirements then get to spend the rest of my points on TWC (all with +1 WS) and fenrisian wolves. I think people also underestimate this unit as well (as well as fenrisian wolves) and then get caught with their pants down so to speak. I say go for it and give it a try.

I don't know where you are looking but cyberwolves are T4 now.

 

 

Thats another error in our codex then, theyre t5 in the summary at the back, and t4 in the unit entry. Id imagine theyre t4, because the ones in the Fen Wolves entry are too.

[CatSmasher]

Whats the point of a cyber wolf without T5. It would actually bring up the IP's toughness, which may mitigate a small margin of "mass fire" counters.

[IronFather84]

I agree I wouldn't use them if they were only T4. They don't have higher I anymore and they do have a little better save but it's not enough to drag down the T of your iron priest IMO

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, they are too expensive as bullet sponges. But are they worth in the following concept:

I will try to play 2x IP on TW with 2 wolves each and 2x 3 TWC with 1 SS. Depending on the enemy they can all ride separately to increase saturation, or the IP can sit inside the TWC unit and provide 2 extra wounds in form of wolves to the unit and with some clever positioning and LoS increase the abuse the unit can take. Ultimately, I took them to replace the Power Fist TWC in my unit and to get them 2 extra wounds but to also have the option to have him run around solo and kill stuff like tank and t5 multi-wound units.

The TWC clocks in at 135 and the IP also at 135. Do you think the investment is worth it in that context? Or better have run 2x 4 TWC around?

 

I also need 2 elite unit to use CoF detachment, so there is another use for them. Allies are White Scars (for now) if that helps.

[Baulder]

I'm not sure that the IP brings as much to the table in that instance. You can easily go with 2 more TWC (so 4 wounds) + 2SS + 1PF for the same price which gives you 5 S5 rending on the charge +5 S10 AP2 on the charge, plus  2 extra 3++ saves. The IP gives 5 S10 AP1 on the charge (good for tank hunting) plus 8 S4 on the charge from the wolves, plus 2+/6++.

 

While on the surface it looks like more attacks, it is likely your basic TWC will have a higher weapon skill (use to CoF detachment) than the wolves so those 8 attacks aren't actually better than the 5 rending attacks (on paper).

 

One benefit though of the IP is (as you've mentioned) he is an IC so in fact he may be good to leave the pack and go tank hunting when he gets close enough to the enemy. In that case you're using the TWC as a delivery system for him rather than a PF replacement character.

 

In fact I'm very tempted to run an IP like this (in a pack of TWC) as a 'detachable tank hunter'. Not sure it is a great buy but it could be a fun way of getting some tank busting in to a list without long range fire power or drop pods (and as a lone wolf alternative).

 

 

 

EDIT: I better say that I've not run an IP on a TWM before so I can't give any in-game feedback. Just looking at the numbers.

[Squark]

In general, the issue with characters on thunderwolf mounts is that it's usually just cheaper and more efficient to just take more thunderwolves. The only exceptions might be the Fangsword (for Helfrost) and the Krakeborne Sword (At initiative AP 2).

 

 

On Terminator/Runic Armor tanking- Point per point, it only works against AP 3. Against AP 4 or greater, you're paying twice as much so the net survivability is moot, and against AP 2 you are as survivable or less depending on whether or not you have a 5+ invul save (and if you'd be getting a cover save). Storm shields on such units generally make them less survivable against virtually everything, since now you've got a model that's 3 times as expensive than the thing its catching bullets for. This did work in the 5th edition codex with one specific build of Wolf Guard, but that was when you could have terminators catch interceptor fire for the combi-weapon PAWG behind them. Since those are now two seperate units, it doesn't work anymore.

[Frater Cornelius]

The main draw here is that you have options. As it is you pay 270 points. 4 TWC with 2 shields and a fist cost 215.

Now consider that I need 2 elites for the CoF detachment so I would need to move the 2*5 GH with plasma and Rhinos to the elite slot in form of WG. The GH cost 120 each. The WG would cost 125 naked and 135-145 depending on combi-weapons. In the end you are paying 30-40 points extra.

What do you get for 40 points? 2 ablative wounds with a 4+ for TWC and/or IP, increased survivability with LoS shenanigans, the ability to make 2 unit instead of 1 and most importantly you have your points evenly spread and making the opponent choose. Personally, In prefer 2*135 rather than 1*270.

 

Is that worth 30-40 points premium? It may be, but I will need to play test.

[Baulder]

need 2 elites take 2 LWs, they are cheap as hell. 

[Frater Cornelius]

LW do not take up a FoC slot.

[Baulder]

What was it you said about the IPs 135 a piece?

 

2* 3 TWC(1SS) + IP + wolves that is 540

 

or 

 

2* LW

2* 4 TWC (2SS +PF)  that's 470

 

add another 1 basic TWC to each pack and you're looking at 550 so it isn't too different.

LW do not take up a FoC slot.

I think they can tbh (though please correct me if I am wrong, dont have the book to hand).

 

If you put them in the detachment with no BC/GH/WG in there then they take the elite slot as normal.

 

 

 

EDIT: Don't get me wrong I like the idea of having a IP on a TWC mount in a pack and the ability to split off and kill other stuff. But if you're just looking to add 2 wounds and replace the PF in the pack you'd be better taking 2 more TWC per pack because the benefits they bring are better than what the IP bring to the strength of that pack as a whole.

[Frater Cornelius]

I am not talking about 2 twc units. I am comparing 4 twc, 2 ss, 1 fist with 3 twc, 1 ss, 1 ip, 2 wolves and the tax when moving gh to the elite slot.

 

And the LW plan will not work because I run 2*5 gh in rhinos and I do not intend to drop them.

[Baulder]

My apologies when you said "I will try to play 2x IP on TW with 2 wolves each and 2x 3 TWC with 1 SS" earlier I thought you were talking about running two squads.

 

Still even if you are just running 1 squad the fact remains that 2 additional TWC one with a PF 1 with a SS looks better 'on paper' than adding an IP to the squad with 2 wolves (if you plan on having the squad just run around together).

 

In regards to the CAD you are right if you take the LW in the same detachment as the GH they dont take up a slot.

 

When I said it I was meaning you could do something like this:

 

CAD

HQ: RP (for example)

Troops: (2x GH squad) --- they get objective secured

 

CoF detachment

HQ: RP (for example)

Elites: 2 x LW

Fast Attack: (All of the TWC) --- they get the +1WS and challenge stuff 

 

 

 

If you're not bothering with the standard CAD then I'd be tempted to ask why you're bothering too much with GH? Just add more TWC/wolfguard and make the most of the CoF detachment bonus. 

 

EDIT: All of this is just ideas btw (play what you enjoy, imo), trying to chuck them into the mix because I'm very interested in seeing how it turns out for the IP. I will be making and running these myself so it is good to look at the options.

[Frater Cornelius]

Because small Rhino units are inconspicuous and fast enough to be objective cappers. And they are good at finishing off 1-2 model units. I have some serious fire power in my WS detachment and good choppa in SW detachment. I want to use those without being worried about those pesky models.

And as for not being shot. Turn 1, 2 bikers units with 3 grav guns and 1 drop pod centurion unit open fire and 2 twc units, 2 iron priests and the TW lord run to charge turn 2. I highly doubt that some objective capping rhino will bother anyone.

And the Rhino can flat-out infront of bikes after they shot to prevent retaliation.

 

I prefer options and in my eyes IP+wolves and a 3man TWC pack is more to my liking than the 4man pack I played before.

There have been many situation where I wished my s10 dude could go after another target. And I keep saying it, I love LoS shenanigans and IP with wolves allows for some nice wound allocations.

 

Not trying to convince you, just making my position and thought process clear ;)

[Baulder]

D'oh I completely forgot you were running with bikes too. You'll have to let me know how the IP/TWC combo gets on. As I say I plan on making some soon so any battle experience would be helpful.