Assassins, both use and killing of

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Force wouldn't work on a Culexes in CC.  And an NDK with Gatling Psilencer would need to be over 12".

 

 

>range 24"

>on a platform that can move 12" or a one-use 30" move

 

Probably be okay. But yeah, Culexus goes first and causes Instant Death, so I'd never go near him in melee. You'll just die en-masse and probably not even wound him :(

[Captain Coolpants]

Culexus assassins are insane! Just downloaded the digital data slate. And wow. They are amazingly powerful against us!

And amazingly powerful whilst being used by us! Could essentially give him a large volume of low ap shots with our own warp charges and mastery levels.

[BloodTzar]

how bout Culexus assassins ridding in our LR coming down T1 trough the formation, using LR's  hull +12" to make a huge zone of no buffs ... Overall he is quite a nice addition for the imperial armies :) poor eldars...

[lt051]

 

maybe charging with interceptors+force

Force wouldn't work on a Culexes in CC. And an NDK with Gatling Psilencer would need to be over 12".

 

Otherwise the 'Sin shuts down the Force buff the unit has active.

Good catch, this thing is annoying

[BladeGaurd]

I am not seeing where force from a psylencer would not work on a culexes, just stay outside of 12 for your blessing to work. 2-4 psylencer shouting has a decent chance to kill him in theory.

Sorry missed the "in CC".

[Morollan]

Vindicare is amazing now. 72" range, turbo-penetrator is now lethal as hell to vehicles and multi-wound alike, and shield-breaker has been toned down (it was a bit janky). Ignore Cover and Precision Shot, plus -2 to Look Out Sir! rolls by the enemy makes him an actual sniper now. All for just 5pts more than before. Massive improvement. 

 

Culexus is scary as hell now, and we'll probably see him taken as a hard-counter to Knights. Ignoring armour saves in melee is huge, as is his ID on a 6 to wound (or ID on attack directed at a psyker). Etherium is borderline broken now, he'll be a god in combat and very hard to gun down. Template and blast weapons would be the way to go. 

 

Eversor is very nice now. 4 shots with his pistol, 3D6 charge range and 3 charge attacks....and his choice of either Fleshbane+Shred or normal AP3 power sword when he slaps you around at Initiative 8. 

 

Callidus I feel got a raw deal. Her shredder is weaker now, and she's not as scary as either the Eversor or Culexus in melee. She has 'Invisibility' when she's deployed now, which is nice. 

 

If anything, the Vindicare has been nerfed. Lost AP1 so actually taking out vehicles on the 7e chart is relying on rolling a 6. -2 to Look out Sir rolls is worse than the old rule where you simply could not use Look out Sir against their shots. Sniper itself is nerfed compared to earlier editions (no pinning, no rending etc).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If anything, the Vindicare has been nerfed. Lost AP1 so actually taking out vehicles on the 7e chart is relying on rolling a 6. -2 to Look out Sir rolls is worse than the old rule where you simply could not use Look out Sir against their shots. Sniper itself is nerfed compared to earlier editions (no pinning, no rending etc).

 

To be fair the old turbo-pen was borderline broken, it was just balanced by being on such an easily killed and 36" range platform. Besides, Vindicares are not intended for anti-tank. 

 

I will miss being able to allocate wounds, but I guess it was a little silly. -2 to Look Out Sir! means he's pretty reliable at killing squad leaders, and on a 4+ for IC's. The D3 wounds on turbo is better IMO, you'll still usually roll 2 and now you can roll 3 (ie enough to kill most heroes outright). Losing Pinning, eh, I can count on one hand the number of times that has mattered in a game. Rending going is annoying, but counting as S10 with turbo shots is way ahead of most snipers, you'll punch through most AV on average dice. 

 

The range upgrade is the main thing I like. 72" is very powerful, you basically are always in range, and Ignore Cover on his shots means you need good invul to survive. 

[Exile Noctis]

I really enjoyed using my Vindicare last edition, racked up a nice KD ratio in my games. :)

 

That said, I'm super pumped to see that other Assassins are becoming viable. Definitely going to need to get the dataslate. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I think marine bikes and any jump infantry squad with flamers will do very nicely! Flamer template them, then assault them! The auto hitting templates then the auto hitting hammer if wrath hits should take a few wounds off the assassin. Making etherium count for nothing!

 

 

 

Or the dice God's might just laugh at you and then you'll be stuck in combat with an armour ignoring monster...

[Shadrach03]

RD you can still allocate wounds with the vindicare.  The deadshot rule states that all hits are "precision shots" not that they have the usr of the same name.  Under the USR a precision shot is allocated against the model of your choice.  If they intented it to work only on 6"s they could have just given him the USR and saved the time writing up Deadshot.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's not totally accurate though.

 

The actual rule is all shots have the Precision Shot *rule*.  And the PS rule makes all to hit rolls of a 6 a Precision Shot.

 

RAI?  Who knows.  Will it be FAQed?  Probably not.

[Shadrach03]

So after reading it again I agree that add written it would seem that only 6's produce precision shots despite sniper weapons already carrying that special rule.

 

It seems that the intention was to have all hits count but they failed with their wording.

[Captain Coolpants]

Direct copy and paste from the Codex.

 

 

"Deadshot: All successful To *Hit* rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, have the Precision Shots special rule."

 

 

It says *all* to *hit* shots have the precision shot rule... So every hit of a 2+ is a precise shot.

 

The only way it could mean what you guys think it means is if it only said the following;

 

'all shots have the precision shot rule'

 

 

Which of Course it doesn't. As it says all hits and not all shots.

Would be a pointless ruling because all sniper shots already have the precision shot rule. Which as you all know, is on a 6.

[Gentlemanloser]

No.

 

All successful to-hit rolls have the PS *rule*.

 

Post what the PS Rule says. ;)

 

Shad is totally correct above.  RAI is most likely that all successful hits are PS (as otherwise it's a redundant rule), but as usal GW goofed wrting the rule *and it doesn't work*.

 

Play it however you want. ;)

[Faithwing]

Wait, so Vindicare only gets his man on a 6+?

 

Or does he always get his man as long as he hits?

 

It's late, and I can't smart making.

[shandwen]

There is a slightly stronger arguement for the vindi only hitting the guy he wants on a 6.  That being said, the way it is wrote in the dataslate leans towards RAI being all shots... piss poor wording by GeeDub.

[Gentlemanloser]

Basically.

 

Used to be on any successful hit.  rewritten (presumably) to still be on every sucessful hit.

 

But they got it wrong.

 

And give the Vindicare this;

 

On every successful hit, those hits have the Precision Shot rule, which allows any successful hit of a 6 to be a Precision Shot.

 

GW shoot, they miss.  Didn't even hit the crossbar.  If they had been taking penalties for Liverpool the other night it would have been over before the keepers had had to take their shots. ;)

[Captain Coolpants]

Well the digital dex says all successful hits have the precision shot rule. And a successful shot for a ballistic skill 8 model is on a 2+ then a 4+ if you missed due to exceptional ballistic skills.

 

Myself, my friends, and my local GW store didn't even need to re-read, second guess or ask around. It's right there in black and white. Says all hits.

 

And as the precision shot rule specifically says rolls of a 6 are precision shots, and the vindicare rule says all hits (not only on a 6 as it literally says "ALL HITS") then I don't see the problem.

[Gentlemanloser]

And as the precision shot rule specifically says rolls of a 6 are precision shot

 

Any 2+/4+ hits a Vindicare makes, has the above rules.

 

When does a vindicare make a Precision Shot?

 

As per the rule, on a 6.

 

I'll bold the problem;

 

 

 

all successful hits have the precision shot rule

 

The Vindicare does not say "all successful hits are Precision Shots".  It says they have the *rule*.  Which only gives Precision Shot on a 6.

 

That is the problem.

[Captain Coolpants]

I hate games workshop so much, alllll they had to do was keep the wording exactly the same.....

 

 

Because a precision shot is only counted as a "successful" precision shot on a 6. And the vindicares rules say that "all" successful shots have the rule, which would be a 2+.

 

So you get the rule on 2+,but the rule requires a 6+. Which makes no sense. So technically they're contradicting rules. So maybe be argued both ways?

[Shadrach03]

You're open to interpreting it that way as there is a strong argument for the case.  But if you end up playing someone you don't know who wants to be a rules lawyer about the whole thing the letter of the law says only 6's.

 

I only play games with my friends so I would likely play it as all hits are allocated but would make them clear on the wording of the rule so we didn't have to hash it out mid game.

[Faithwing]

Yeah, RAW basically confirms the 6+, which makes Vindicare the best sniper ever... lol.

 

Pretty good, GW.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Meh. This is one of those grey areas that I'd houserule with mates, and avail yourself to the vagaries of tourney judges in comp games. 

 

IMO, when you hit, you get to allocate. It's how the Vindicare has always worked, and thus far hasn't broken the game. People are not in a position to complain, when monstrosities like Riptides, Knights, Serpents etc dominate the meta and care little for that 1 piddly shot per turn. 

[Shadrach03]

I agree RD, it's more of a showcase of how gw is unable to make the rules they intend to work actually work. Luckily in this case the intent is fairly clear but it usually is not so cut and dry.