New GK player, with questions...

[Rybnick]

I've just recently started a GK army (just 2 weeks ago actually), because I've always liked the models. Now obviously I knew the new dex was coming (even though some of the changes were huge surprises), but post the leaked codex entries I'm having a bear of a time creating lists (something I suspect I am not alone in). One of my major issues is knowing what and how many melee weapons is typical for a unit to make us of.

 

Obviously it will vary depending on what you want a unit to accomplish, but is there a decent rule of thumb for melee weapon upgrades (like 20 points/squad for melee upgrades)? Here are my thoughts on the upgrades below:

 

• NF Swords - default choice is default, nice to have an ap3 force weapon at hand. 
• NF Halberds - nice because you won't necessarily have to rely on hammer hand, ultimately saving you warp charges for other areas (since no psychic pilots reduced the gross amount we generate some). Having base S5 for 2 points seems like a deal most marine army's would appreciate; adding in ap3 just makes it sweeter. I see having a couple in most squads as a viable options. 
• NF Falchions - Huge bummer that these lost the +1inv save from last edition but still have some utility in providing the +1A bonus. I see them being the most useful on units who will be assaulting (obviously) or that already have a respectable number of attacks. Namely Purifiers, Terminators and Interceptors, but at 4ppm  I think we'll have to limit the numbers of them we use, in a 10 man squad I see 4 Falchions as the max I'd invest in. 
• NF Stave - no more safety in CC, but adamantium is a fair trade right... seems like a decent upgrade though for 5ppm, this and hammer hand bumps you up to S8 at initiative which could be handy for nobs, crisis suits, etc. concussive is icing for dreads vehicles. I think it's going to be a less used upgrade for the cost (plus you only get 1 per box, lame). 
• NF Hammer - everything that's great (and bad) about thunderhammers plus all the NF benefits for a pretty reasonable price. I see them being nice to mix into squads  ad-hoc, especially Terminator squads. 

Example builds I've worked out:

• 10 Purifiers - Rhino, 4 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, 4 Falchions, Hammer (just an example I don't really plan on purifiers at this point so please no comments on their validity)
• 10 Interceptors - 2 Incincerators, 2 Halbers, 4 Falchions, Melta bombs. I really like this squad it can combat squad into burny half with halberds and choppy half with melta bomb. 
• 5 Termies - psycannon, 2 hammers, 2 halberds

Is 20+ points a unit too much to invest in melee weapons?

 

With all that said is there anything I'm overlooking or have missed? With the premium we pay for units it feels like getting the melee weapon balance right is going to be a big deal. Any rules of thumb, opinions, tips/tricks would be greatly appreciated! 

 

Thanks, 

Rybnick

[Valerian]

I've just recently started a GK army (just 2 weeks ago actually), because I've always liked the models. Now obviously I knew the new dex was coming (even though some of the changes were huge surprises), but post the leaked codex entries I'm having a bear of a time creating lists (something I suspect I am not alone in). One of my major issues is knowing what and how many melee weapons is typical for a unit to make us of.

So first off, welcome aboard, and good luck with your new army. there isn't an established rule of thumb, so you just go with what you're comfortable spending, and as you stated, what you think the unit will be doing for you.

 

 

Obviously it will vary depending on what you want a unit to accomplish, but is there a decent rule of thumb for melee weapon upgrades (like 20 points/squad for melee upgrades)? Here are my thoughts on the upgrades below:

• NF Falchions - Huge bummer that these lost the +1inv save from last edition but still have some utility in providing the +1A bonus. I see them being the most useful on units who will be assaulting (obviously) or that already have a respectable number of attacks. Namely Purifiers, Terminators and Interceptors, but at 4ppm  I think we'll have to limit the numbers of them we use, in a 10 man squad I see 4 Falchions as the max I'd invest in. 

 

Falchions didn't give the +1 Inv Save, that was Swords, which now don't have a special extra ability. Due to huge drop in cost (and nerf to Swords and Halberds) these have just moved up to the default upgrade. Might as well get 5 in a unit for an even price of a PAGK in points. Then sprinkle in a couple Halberds and one Hammer.

 

 

 

 

• NF Stave - no more safety in CC, but adamantium is a fair trade right... seems like a decent upgrade though for 5ppm, this and hammer hand bumps you up to S8 at initiative which could be handy for nobs, crisis suits, etc. concussive is icing for dreads vehicles. I think it's going to be a less used upgrade for the cost (plus you only get 1 per box, lame). 

 

I wouldn't bother with the Stave. It'd be fine against Xeno armies, but you need AP3 against MEQs.

 

 

Is 20+ points a unit too much to invest in melee weapons?

No, not at all. In fact, I've found that I'm investing at least 20 points in my units for melee, because I'm relying on melee to win the game for me. That's where we excel over other armies. We're too small a force to win a shooting match against, well, anything - particularly with the loss of Psybolts, and the Salvo nerf to Psycannons.

[Rybnick]

Thanks for the response Valerian! I definitely see the Falchions as one of the better upgrades, very interesting that you consider it the default option now.

 

Also from the outside looking in I'd always considered a GK army a mostly shooty force in the previous codex but I can see your point in how this might be transitioning with the new book. I dropping by to pick the new dex up after work, pretty excited to get to read through it. 

 

Any more input would be great, especially if you've already played a game or two with the new dex. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Falchions are the default choice on everything now. Halberds are trash, and the stave is only good on the Librarian because A: he's not a combat hero and B: Adamaintium Will stacked with his Mastery 3 and psychic hood means he denies on a 3+ against offensive powers, which is amazing psychic defense. 

 

Hammers cost so much now, I'd only be taking 1 per 5 dudes now (so normally 1 per squad). You still need them to bail out out of combat with 2+ saves, high Toughness monsters and for killing vehicles in melee. 

 

Swords are just terrible now, the only reason you'd take them is if you need to save points. Purifiers arguably don't need falchions, as they have 2A base (and they're already quite expensive). 

[Gaz1858]

Dont leave home without your NDK. Kit it how you want although the Sword is well worth 10 points and the HI is still top. Teleporter is again a must. Add another shooty weapon if you like.

 

Purifiers are still good imo as theyve gained a Mastery Level for more warpcharge and still have the nova power which is great. 10 man squad with 4 incinerators, 3 halberds, 3 falchions and a Hammer in a raven combat squadded. Thats 4 warp charge points and when they come out there isnt much that will stand up to them

[Rommel44]

Thanks for the response Valerian! I definitely see the Falchions as one of the better upgrades, very interesting that you consider it the default option now.

 

Also from the outside looking in I'd always considered a GK army a mostly shooty force in the previous codex but I can see your point in how this might be transitioning with the new book. I dropping by to pick the new dex up after work, pretty excited to get to read through it. 

 

Any more input would be great, especially if you've already played a game or two with the new dex. 

 

Halberds are trash? You get +1 Strength for 2 points, which means you can wound Marines on a 3+, which goes very well with Hammer-Hand if you want to go that rout. It is up to personal choice, however in my opinon Halberds are still a good option with this new book, as although Falchions can give you an extra attack, S5 will kill more things in the long run. Thats just how I see it.

[IndigoJack]

Honestly, I'm not sure falchions are the way to go for everything. Particularly not units like purifers and terminators (both flavors) as they already have two attacks. My reasoning is that while you certainly want to destroy a unit in combat, you don't necessarily want to do it in one phase. If you charge a unit, you really want combat to last for two assault phases, as that keeps you from getting shot at. On the other hand, since terminators can't sweeping advance, they do want to be able to completely destroy units when assaulting them so they may actually want the falchions. So the question becomes, how necessary is the extra attack? I don't know. It's certainly something worth play testing though.

 

I personally think the teleporter is even less of a must have than before. I rarely ran it in the previous codex, and my NDK did just fine. With the improvement to his ranged weapons, you can probably get by just fine without it.

[Adeptus]

in my opinon Halberds are still a good option with this new book, as although Falchions can give you an extra attack, S5 will kill more things in the long run. Thats just how I see it.

3 Attacks at S4(6) are better than two attacks at S(5)7

 

10 Terminators with Falchions vs MEQ targets will make 30 attacks, 15 hits, and 7.5 wounds, or 10.5 wounds with Hammerhand.

 

10 Terminators with Halberds will make 20 attacks, 10 hits and 6.6 wounds without Hammerhand, or 8.3 wounds with Hammerhand.

 

The results skew when you factor in 2+ saves, monstrous creatures, etc etc but in those cases I think a hammer is the relevant tool, and the S7 of Halberds does not sufficiently distance itself from the S6 of Falchions, nor make itself as useful as the S8 Ap2 of Hammers.

 

I plan on keeping a couple in my Terminator blobs for now just in case I can't get Hammerhand off in some unfortunate circumstances, but I don't expect them to do much.

[Adeptus]

I personally think the teleporter is even less of a must have than before. I rarely ran it in the previous codex, and my NDK did just fine. With the improvement to his ranged weapons, you can probably get by just fine without it.

I think the Teleporter is about the only upgrade I'd never leave home without!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Halberds are trash? You get +1 Strength for 2 points, which means you can wound Marines on a 3+, which goes very well with Hammer-Hand if you want to go that rout. It is up to personal choice, however in my opinon Halberds are still a good option with this new book, as although Falchions can give you an extra attack, S5 will kill more things in the long run. Thats just how I see it.

 

You become S6 on a psychic test. In the unlikely event the enemy is wasting their dispel dice on 'Hammerhand', you still have more attacks than they will with falchions. 

 

Knights traditional problem in combat is not that we don't hit hard (we hit like trucks with 'Hammerhand' now), its that we don't have enough attacks. Falchions were ignored last edition because the price point was too high (10 on many squads). Now that its 4, its very affordable especially on Terminators and Inteceptors. 

 

If you are that concerned about not wounding the enemy reliably, take hammers. 

[Captain Coolpants]

 

I personally think the teleporter is even less of a must have than before. I rarely ran it in the previous codex, and my NDK did just fine. With the improvement to his ranged weapons, you can probably get by just fine without it.

I think the Teleporter is about the only upgrade I'd never leave home without!

DARN TOOTIN! :-P

[Rommel44]

 

Halberds are trash? You get +1 Strength for 2 points, which means you can wound Marines on a 3+, which goes very well with Hammer-Hand if you want to go that rout. It is up to personal choice, however in my opinon Halberds are still a good option with this new book, as although Falchions can give you an extra attack, S5 will kill more things in the long run. Thats just how I see it.

 

You become S6 on a psychic test. In the unlikely event the enemy is wasting their dispel dice on 'Hammerhand', you still have more attacks than they will with falchions. 

 

Knights traditional problem in combat is not that we don't hit hard (we hit like trucks with 'Hammerhand' now), its that we don't have enough attacks. Falchions were ignored last edition because the price point was too high (10 on many squads). Now that its 4, its very affordable especially on Terminators and Inteceptors. 

 

If you are that concerned about not wounding the enemy reliably, take hammers. 

 

 

Halberds will be striking at Initiative though, where hammers strike last so that's not a great example. Don't get me wrong, Falchions I think will be a good choice on certain units like Interceptors or even Purifiers, however with my Terminators, Halberds are my pick as there job will be going after my opponents big nasties. I have a lot of Orks, Marines (Both Chaos and Regular), Necrons, and even a monster-heavy Tyranid list, so the S5 will benefit me much more in the long wrong, as wounding on 3's is a lot better then wounding on 4's. Plus we get 3x attacks when we charge, which is good enough for me.

 

Just how I plan to run my particular GK list mate. Interceptors, Purifiers, and Strike Squads will be fielding either NFS or NFF, while my Terminators/Paladins will have the Halberds, plus they look really good with the model. Will be playing some games today so I will give you a rundown on how they do, and I will try both out. Plus, I plan to field at least 2x Hammers in my GK Terminator squad, and its common sense to have at least 1x Daemon Hammer per squad.

[Landrick]

While I largely agree with RD, I do feel a few halberds should be mixed in. Then again I face a lot of plague marines, sm bikes, and nids

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Halberds will be striking at Initiative though, where hammers strike last so that's not a great example. Don't get me wrong, Falchions I think will be a good choice on certain units like Interceptors or even Purifiers, however with my Terminators, Halberds are my pick as there job will be going after my opponents big nasties. I have a lot of Orks, Marines (Both Chaos and Regular), Necrons, and even a monster-heavy Tyranid list, so the S5 will benefit me much more in the long wrong, as wounding on 3's is a lot better then wounding on 4's. Plus we get 3x attacks when we charge, which is good enough for me.

 

The difference between S6 and S7 versus the units you describe is meaningless. S7 cannot instant-death T4 multi-wound, which is what hammers excel at. Also, hammers offer the only AP2 melee option for us. 

 

You're unlikely to get the charge with Terminators, they're too slow. 

Just how I plan to run my particular GK list mate. Interceptors, Purifiers, and Strike Squads will be fielding either NFS or NFF, while my Terminators/Paladins will have the Halberds, plus they look really good with the model. Will be playing some games today so I will give you a rundown on how they do, and I will try both out. Plus, I plan to field at least 2x Hammers in my GK Terminator squad, and its common sense to have at least 1x Daemon Hammer per squad.

 

I like halberds too (they're actually pretty unique to Knights, whereas swords are everywhere), but there is aesthetics and then there is the practicalities of 'does this loadout actually do what I want?'. Halberds are an awkward compromise; they lack AP2 or the S8/10 of a hammer, but they let you wound a little more reliably. S6 wounds most infantry very reliably, and if you're fighting high Toughness enemies the hammers will clean them up just fine. 

 

My most consistent problem with Terminators, regardless of type, is that they don't produce enough attacks for their cost. Their ranged firepower is exactly the same as two Tactical Marines at 24", and the comparison becomes worse once you get within 12". In melee, 2A is great but you will only typically have 5-man squads (they're too hard to manage with 10, takes up too much room and its awkward to move on the battlefield). Falchions fix that problem, and unlike lightning claws they don't keep you stuck at S4, you can buff to S6 just like a sword can (your default nemesis weapon). Even better, unlike Assault Terminators, we retain our guns, so you can still contribute either after landing via Deepstrike or whilst advancing on the enemy. 

[IndigoJack]

I think you're forgetting that hammerhand doesn't just work. It needs to be manifested, and that means taking a gamble. I generally throw 3 dice at hammerhand, and there have been more than a few times it didn't go off. What halberds provide is reliable S5. This has the added benefit of letting you save dice for other powers, and preventing you from losing an expensive model to perils.

[Kenderleech]

I can see the new thread already...  "Today i perils and killed my..."

[Adeptus]

I think you're forgetting that hammerhand doesn't just work. It needs to be manifested, and that means taking a gamble. I generally throw 3 dice at hammerhand, and there have been more than a few times it didn't go off. What halberds provide is reliable S5. This has the added benefit of letting you save dice for other powers, and preventing you from losing an expensive model to perils.

Even without Hammerhand, Falchions generate more wounds than Halberds. I mean, they cost more so they'd want to.

[Gentlemanloser]

Some easy maths.  Because I'm lazy. :P

 

10 GKT (S4, 20A), armed either with 10 Falchions (+10A) or 10 Halberd (+1S), hitting T4 with no armour saves.

 

Falchions: 30 Attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds.  Total Casualties 10

 

Halberds: 20 Attacks, 9 wounds.  Total Casualties 9

 

 

TL;DR

 

Falchions > Halberds

[Adeptus]

Some easy maths. Because I'm lazy.

10 GKT (S4, 20A), armed either with 10 Falchions (+10A) or 10 Halberd (+1S), hitting T4 with no armour saves.

Falchions: 30 Attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds. Total Casualties 10

Halberds: 20 Attacks, 9 wounds. Total Casualties 9

TL;DR

Falchions > Halberds

That's assuming WS3 and T4, which is a pretty odd combination.

[Landrick]

Some easy maths. Because I'm lazy.

10 GKT (S4, 20A), armed either with 10 Falchions (+10A) or 10 Halberd (+1S), hitting T4 with no armour saves.

Falchions: 30 Attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds. Total Casualties 10

Halberds: 20 Attacks, 9 wounds. Total Casualties 9

TL;DR

Falchions > Halberds

Also, if this math is true i would take halberds. They are half the price and according to this only 10% less effective

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think you're forgetting that hammerhand doesn't just work. It needs to be manifested, and that means taking a gamble. I generally throw 3 dice at hammerhand, and there have been more than a few times it didn't go off. What halberds provide is reliable S5. This has the added benefit of letting you save dice for other powers, and preventing you from losing an expensive model to perils.

 

>anecdotes intensify

 

You don't like having to cast psychic powers? Play a different army. We rely entirely on manifesting powers to win in melee. We're stupidly overcosted otherwise, without 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' we would be worse than normal Marines at melee. 

 

I cannot think of any scenario where I'd wanna cast something else over 'Hammerhand'. If you're in melee, you need that +2 Strength ASAP. 'Force' is situationally awesome, but I'd give priority to wounding reliably first. 

 

Also, if this math is true i would take halberds. They are half the price and according to this only 10% less effective

 

 

In a vacuum, yes. However, in reality, you're putting 'Hammerhand' on top of both of those units as often as you can. Which changes the picture dramatically. 3x S6 attacks is going to be more effective than 2x S7 attacks against the vast majority of opponents. You can spike higher (ie hit with everything), you can mitigate bad rolls to hit (my Terminators routinely miss with half their attacks, even against non-WS4 opponents), and if you can get re-rolls via 'Prescience', you have more attacks that can potentially hit. 

[Gaz1858]

Surely all of this is just advocating that a mix is best?

[Dread]

And that is what I'm finding out now. Most of my units had same weapons, made it easier but now there needs to be tank pounding ability in each unit, and I like it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Surely all of this is just advocating that a mix is best? 

 

Yeah, a mix of 4/5 falchions and 1/5 hammers ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

That's assuming WS3 and T4, which is a pretty odd combination.

 

Doh. For some reason thought the attacks had the same chance as usual to hit roll. /whistle

 

Redoing for both WS4 and +2S from an active Hammerhand;

 

Falchions: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 12.5 wounds.  Casualties 12.5

 

Halberds: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8.3 wounds. Casualties 8.3

 

 

Trying to skew this more in favour of the Halberds by attacking T5;

 

Falchions: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds.  Casualties 10

 

Halberds: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8.3 wounds. Casualties 8.3

 

 

Basically, Hammerhand removes really any benefit Halberds have, and Falchions are still always better than Halberds.

 

 

What Toughness must we attack for Halberds to be better?

 

Toughness 7;

 

Falchions: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds.  Casualties 5

 

Halberds: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds. Casualties 5

 

 

Toughness 8;

 

Falchions: 30 attacks, 15 hits, 2 wounds.  Casualties 2

 

Halberds: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8.3 wounds. Casualties 3.3

 

 

From T7 and up, Halbers work out to be the better choice (as they're cheaper).  But if you're facing T7 and up, you want to use Hammers anyway.

 

The vast majority of enemies you face, the +1S from Halberds is wasted.  With or without Hammerhand, the Falchions are the better option.