Battle for the Abyss and other BL novels

[Volt]

Why do you avoid the HH novels for the Dark Angels? They're among the best and most consistent books in the Horus Heresy.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I hate the Dark Angels with a burning passion. To be honest, I really can't put my thumb on why that is, and I even started working on an Angels of Vengeance successor chapter 40k army a while back because I like their table top rules.

 

On top of that, I've hear that Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels are some of the worst offerings in the whole series. I tried reading Descent and barely made it 80 pages or so before I got bored and stopped reading it, so I have made an attempt.

[Volt]

I hate the Dark Angels with a burning passion. To be honest, I really can't put my thumb on why that is, and I even started working on an Angels of Vengeance successor chapter 40k army a while back because I like their table top rules.

 

On top of that, I've hear that Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels are some of the worst offerings in the whole series. I tried reading Descent and barely made it 80 pages or so before I got bored and stopped reading it, so I have made an attempt.

Dark Angels have the deepest and most engaging plot of all the legions....

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

In your opinion, they might. :D

 

I happen to to think some of the other Legions, like the IV and the VIII have more engaging histories.

[Volt]

In your opinion, they might.

I happen to to think some of the other Legions, like the IV and the VIII have more engaging histories.

But they tell you everything about them. We still don't even know how far the taint spreads through the Dark Angels, which might be fairly far considering that Caliban's taint went down to the rock thanks to the daemon inside the planet. Hell we don't even know who Cypher is. Or what side he's on.

[Marshal Rohr]

A lot of this comes from scenes that make zero sense. An Alpha Legionary giving himself away because the Raven Guard aren't trained to slash the femoral? No :cuss way. The aforementioned super gene seed that Corax unlocks? Never would've happened, not to mention the weird labyrinth that would've made going to work impossible for almost anyone. Battle for the Abyss was a product of a fundamental misunderstanding of the gravitas of the series. This isn't you standard 40K Fellowship of the Ring derivative, and the series has improved significantly on that front.

 

The biggest problems in the current stories seem to come from one author coming up with an idea and then all the others wanting to put their own spin on it (Shattered Legions/Alpha Legion/John Grammaticus) and the way they present it (single strike cruisers, under 100 legionaries) makes it impossible. The series has also been treading water for 2 years now, and the reason why is probably a business reason or because the authors are doing other projects.

[TrafficCustodes]

Brother Chaplain Kage - I had almost the exact same reaction to 'Know No Fear'. Wasn't ever a Ultramarines hater personally, but after the Monarchia scene in 'First Heretic' I wanted to see the XIII humbled in the dirt. By the end of KNF I was horrified by the Word Bearers' actions and I really admired Guilliman and the Ultramarines. (I'm loving the 'Success Marine' picture as well.)

 

It looks like your top tier books and mine are pretty similar - I really recommend you check out 'The Unremembered Empire' at the earliest opportunity, but keep in mind it's a 'nexus novel', and there are about 20 short stories, novellas or even novels which feed directly into it, so if you haven't read almost everything in HH, there are bits where you might feel a bit lost. In particular, 'Vulkan Lives', most of the 'Shadows Of Treachery' collection, and a few 'Age Of Darkness' stories. You could just look stuff up on a wiki, if you preferred, and then investigate the plot strands you felt were the most interesting.

 

Volt, regarding the Dark Angels arc in the Heresy - I personally agree with you that their story is one of the most interesting out of all the Legions, and we get almost exhaustive history of their Primarch's early years and the way his planet's culture shaped his Legion (one of my favourite things about the Heresy). However, I think it's clear not everyone liked those first two books - of the early series, I think only 'Battle For the Abyss' gets criticised or dismissed more frequently than 'Descent Of Angels'. I don't think they're bad books. However, they are quite dry and (especially for someone who has a dislike of the First Legion) sometimes hard to slog through. I'm glad you liked them though.

 

Back to BFTA - there are moments where Counter's Ultramarines unfortunately play into the tropes that make a lot of 40K fans hate our "spiritual lieges". They're born leaders; they diplomatically win over Astartes from other Legions who should hate them; they do The Right Thing at all times. They face adversity with a stiff upper lip and in the end they will triumph. There are examples of all that in BFTA, and I do recall a few moments of Ultras facing down ridiculous odds and triumphing - I personally don't mind that as I expect it in BP books like this, but as I read those scenes I could almost hear the screams of "OMG, Ultrasmurf bias much!" HOWEVER, there are also some nice moments. In particular, I did really like the moment near the end where Cestus hallucinates that he's in "hell", based on a half-remembered Macragge folk legend that's been suppressed by the Imperial Truth for a long time. The Macragge interpretation of "hell" says... interesting things about the Ultramarines' native culture. Not necessarily good things. I liked that.

 

He's a little less lucky with the Space Wolves, I think. The arguments between Brynngar and Mhotep were horribly written IMO.

[TrafficCustodes]

The series has also been treading water for 2 years now, and the reason why is probably a business reason or because the authors are doing other projects.

I see the "series is treading water" statement around quite a bit and it honestly feels like people started saying it more than two years ago. It's fair enough to think that of course - a lot of fans really want the book(s) about the Siege Of Terra to be on the way now. Heck, some of the authors have said they're keen on the series pushing forward as well.

 

I personally think it's a pretty impressive set of books that have been put out since 2012.

 

Deliverance Lost

Know No Fear

The Primarchs

Fear To Tread

Shadows Of Treachery

Angel Exterminatus

Betrayer

Mark Of Calth

Vulkan Lives

The Unremembered Empire

Scars

Vengeful Spirit

The Damnation Of Pythos

 

Brotherhood Of The Storm

Scorched Earth

Corax: Soulforge

Tallarn: Executioner

Ravenlord

The Imperial Truth

Sedition's Gate

 

Garro: Sword Of Truth

Butcher's Nails

Echoes Of Ruin

Burden Of Duty

Grey Angel

Censure

Honour To The Dead

The Sigillite

Wolf Hunt

Hunter's Moon

Thief Of Revelations

Templar

 

Hey - that run of material isn't perfect, I'd be the first to admit that. But I don't accept that across those 30+ books and audio dramas, all you'll find is BL dragging their feet. Many of those books deal with significant events in the Heresy timeline. More often, they're focused on deepening the characterisation of established Legions, or telling us about things that, for whatever reason, haven't been explored in the Heresy background before (or were completely unknown). I personally feel that was always the nature of the Horus Heresy. You were going to see Calth and Isstvan but you were also going to see weird diversions and as long as they were entertaining, that was fine. You can see that even going back to the couple years of the series, I think.

 

James Swallow said (in that interview recently posted) that he considers the series about halfway done and that he could see the same amount of stories again coming out before they're finished with HH. Of course, Swallow wasn't definitively saying "this will happen", but he clearly thought it was a possibility, and it seems he's in a position to know. If we take him extremely literally, that's 30 more novels, 10+ more audio dramas, 7 or 8 more novellas (well, probably way more, since the novellas have only started recently). Take that as a "worst case scenario", if you like, and think to yourself: Am I in this for the long haul, if this series takes about 8 more years to finish? My answer would be "I am in it for as long as I'm enjoying the books." A lot of people on this forum, I feel, would view that timeframe as unacceptable, even if each book was a complete masterpiece - and if those people are really not enjoying the series at all, I don't think there's anything wrong with tapping out until the last few HH novels. People won't get begrudge you saying "OK, this isn't what I want to read, so I'm saving my money until they publish a part of the story I care about." It's your money, after all.

 

In the end, BL is a business, and of course their plans for HH and their release schedule are influenced by an ambition to make as much money as possible from the series. But that doesn't mean the quality will suffer, or that the authors themselves will lack inspiration or enthusiasm for the material.

[Chaeron]

Very well said my friend. As another 'long-haul' member, I don't mind it as I honestly don't find it dragging because of there being so many mediums and perspectives to explore this through. I dread to think of the future outlay, but better this than to rush and then fit things in thereafter. It's their cash cow, but also one of the best Sci-fi series around. Inevitably, there will be books that don't meet the exacting qualify the fan base requires, but it's really an exciting time for Heresy fanatics.

[Marshal Rohr]

Book 1 was released in 2006. We are currently on year three or four of the heresy.

[Conn Eremon]

Book 1 was released in 2006. We are currently on year three or four of the heresy.

This honestly doesn't bother me in the slightest. Heck, if it was still year one, I would be happy as all get out. But that's more because this Heresy series seems to be all we will get of the Unification/Great Crusade era. I am in no rush for the Siege. The further out that is, and the more fillers we get, the better in my mind.

[Chaeron]

 

Book 1 was released in 2006. We are currently on year three or four of the heresy.

This honestly doesn't bother me in the slightest. Heck, if it was still year one, I would be happy as all get out. But that's more because this Heresy series seems to be all we will get of the Unification/Great Crusade era. I am in no rush for the Siege. The further out that is, and the more fillers we get, the better in my mind.

 

 

Definitely. So much to come before then - and even then, I'm happy for them to explore the siege from myriad perspectives anyway. That will be exciting though!

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm not saying they won't explore new things, and I agree that more expansion is better, I would just like to see some more development instead of build up.

 

 

Then again, I'm one of those people that absolutely hate trilogies and refuse to watch shows during the season because I want all my information at one time. I'm also a grown man who hates surprises and gets pissed when people tell me they bought my Christmas present and won't tell me what it is.

 

 

Oh my god. I'm the weird one.

[TrafficCustodes]

And on top of that, saying we're overall 'about four years in' doesn't always apply, as the series won't necessarily stay linear. 'Scars' jumped back quite a way before 'Unremembered Empire', and there's apparently a big gap between 'Scars' and 'Vengeful Spirit'. And I think we've had a few 'flash forwards' - that story 'All That Remains' in 'The Imperial Truth', that seems to be further into the Heresy timeline than any of the novels have reached.
 

I'm not saying they won't explore new things, and I agree that more expansion is better, I would just like to see some more development instead of build up.


Then again, I'm one of those people that absolutely hate trilogies and refuse to watch shows during the season because I want all my information at one time. I'm also a grown man who hates surprises and gets pissed when people tell me they bought my Christmas present and won't tell me what it is.


Oh my god. I'm the weird one.

You're not that weird. I'm the kind of person who looks up the plot of thrillers or horror movies before he watches them so I don't get too surprised.

[A D-B]

And on top of that, saying we're overall 'about four years in' doesn't always apply, as the series won't necessarily stay linear. 'Scars' jumped back quite a way before 'Unremembered Empire', and there's apparently a big gap between 'Scars' and 'Vengeful Spirit'. And I think we've had a few 'flash forwards' - that story 'All That Remains' in 'The Imperial Truth', that seems to be further into the Heresy timeline than any of the novels have reached.

 

Then again, I'm one of those people that absolutely hate trilogies and refuse to watch shows during the season because I want all my information at one time. I'm also a grown man who hates surprises and gets pissed when people tell me they bought my Christmas present and won't tell me what it is.

 

 

Oh my god. I'm the weird one.

You're not that weird. I'm the kind of person who looks up the plot of thrillers or horror movies before he watches them so I don't get too surprised.

 

Me three.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Unfortunately, I can usually predict the endings and big plot twists of most movies and books these days, so I rather enjoy the ones that manage to throw me for a loop.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Haha.This thread brings back memories for me. When I finally decided to check out the HH series, I just picked Battle for the Abyss out of a hat to read first. And I, like you, was ready to cast the whole thing aside.

 

I really can't even come up with one nice thing to say about that book aside from "Good job on writing a novel start to finish." The characters were awful. Good or bad, they were all cartoons. The Space Wolf was drunk. The World Eater killed people for no reason. The story was silly. The action was terrible. The armor of anyone unnecessary to the plot was made of tissue paper, and that of anyone necessary to the plot was impervious. Quite easily one of the worst novels I have ever read. It still, to this day, given the sheer number of Heresy books I've subsequently skimmed or abandoned, that I read the whole thing. Perhaps it was just to further justify my outrage at the sheer incompetency of its narrative construction and characterization.

 

 

That said, there are some good books in the series. And at the very least, some competent ones. Read the first three. Despite his total, abject faliure with BftA, Counter's Galaxy in Flames is a decent read.

Here's a blog's worth of reviews condensed for time:

 

Fulgrim is decent, as is A Thousand Sons. Where McNeill struggles to write Space Marines, he does a fairly good job with human characters. Outcast Dead is pretty mediocre, and again, irrelevant to the greater plot. Vengeful Spirit is the same way. Oh look, we sell Knights now! Read this book about them. There couldn't be a more shameless product tie-in since the 1980s GI Joe movie. And the quality is about on par. The Ultramarines novels highlighted McNeill's rather appalling inability to conceive how warfare works. Vengeful Spirit continues in that sad tradition. One is forced to wonder how the Space Marine Legions could fight so stupid, and endure such astounding casualties, and continue to function as cohesive, effective fighting forces. If you pick up VS, turn your brain off. It might melt. Oh, and what I said about McNeill and human characters? Does not apply to VS. To call them two dimensional might be a stretch. Angel Exterminatus has its moments. 

 

Abnett is a fan favorite, but he's hit or miss for me. He's definitely an unapologietic plot borrower. If you've seen The Thirteenth Warrior (or read Chricton's Eaters of the Dead), you've already read Prospero Burns. If you're hard up for some Space Wolves, give it a try. If the idea of a spacefaring race needing someone to tell their stories because they don't have a written language sounds absurd, congratulations, you're a discerning reader. You can also skip PB. On the other hand, Know No Fear is quite well done. It's even a fairly cool literary experiment, being written in the future tense. However, do yourself a favor and skip Unremembered Novel. It's a waste of time and perhaps the most confoundingly contrived of the novels thus far. And it literally tells zero story of any consequence. Primarch fist-fight porn. If you like Primarch fist-fight porn, where they do battle to the death, but somehow everybody lives to fight another day, then this is your thing. Otherwise, read the plot summary somewhere. Legion is another fan favorite, but the whole Alpha Legion story is so distasteful at this point, I can't really get invested in the Scooby Doo Marines anymore. And they used to be so cool.

 

You're not missing anything skipping the Dark Angels novels. Literally nothing of any consequence happens in Descent of Angels. It's not important, and it's definitely not interesting. It's also fairly ridiculous that Space Marines would be left behind to do basic counter-insurgency on a planet while there is a galaxy full of planets to conquer.

 

Deliverance Loss. No, really. I didn't mispell it. More Scooby Doo Marines doing non Space Mariney things.. Tragedy of Corax's folly is lost to (clumsy) reinterpretation. 

 

Skip everything written by Kyme. There might not be a primarch more treated with disservice by these novels than Vulkan. if you like the Salamanders, skip them for your sanity. If you're Salamanders ambivalent, skip them for your own benefit. It doesn't help that Kyme is a mediocre writer.

 

ADB has two full-length offerings. The First Heretic might be one of the best novels to come out of the whole series. For the primarch who is the most mewling, pathetic cur of the bunch, ADB succeeds in making him sympathetic and believable. There's a lot of good subtext going on in this novel. It's not perfect, but then again, some of the things I fault in it are limitations of 40K's rather nonsensical setting the authors are forced to work within. On the other hand, Betrayer was a pretty significant stumble. People tend to froth and rage when I say that, but there are a few glaring problems at work here. First, the plot itself suffers from "Dragging this out for the profits-itis". This was really one of the first novels (and even more painfully obvious in the aforementioned Unremembered Novel) to display this. This novel's plot is a short story.

Lorgar realizes Angron is destroying himself. Lorgar takes Angron to his home planet to unleash his rage. Lorgar transforms Angron into a Daemon Prince. There is literally zero reason for this story to even need the Ultramarines in it, and they only exist for Primarch fist-fight porn where Guilliman, Lorgar and Angron all fight to the death, but everyone gets conveniently dragged off or distracted to safely fight another day.

. Second, this comes back into Vengeful Spirit territory in terms of "How do the world Eaters continue to exist if they fight like this?" The battle scenes are bafflingly incomprehensible. Khârn wins a battle because angry. Primarchs get stepped on by Titans and lift them up like Mighty Mouse. Which ties into its third problem. The World Eaters (and Angron) are just bad. I love them. They make fine bad guys in 40K. So do Orks. The World Eaters are the Orks of Space Marines. Don't think about them too hard. Angron's whole back story is ridiculous, and it's a highlight for the glaring question of "Jebus, how stupid was the Emperor?" Trying to tackle Angron and the World Eaters was a mistake. The Nails end up as a plot device. When Khârn needs to be lucid, he's lucid. Magically and for no reason, since the rest of the time he's being driven nuts. 

 

Lastly, the most recent novel DamnwhyamIreading of Pythos is ridiculously skippable too. I couldn't even tell you what was happening because it's so dull. However, the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak the flesh is weak. I wish I had this in a searchable PDF so I could Ctrl+F the word "flesh" just to highlight how many instances there are. This novel beats that trope so hard and so repeatedly, that one of the characters, quite literally debates with himself about whether or not to save the flesh because he hates the flesh so much. The flesh, in this instance, being some regular human bystanders. 

[TrafficCustodes]

inb4 ADB himself eviscerates this guy
 
You have posted a lot of stuff I disagree with, sir (some of it extremely strongly). But you at least seem to have read the entire HH series, which is something.
 
Gonna just focus on one particular thing you asserted, that the World Eaters are one-dimensional shouty, angry villains and we should not dedicate too much time to their story because it will never make sense. Yes, when they're dealt with in an unsubtle, shallow way (like in a one-page filler story in White Dwarf) Khârn and the World Eaters are just angry space berserkers yelling "BLOOD 4 THE BLOOD GOD, MY DROOGS". However, with the efforts of first Matthew Farrer and then ADB (and Alan Bligh and John French, in the FW books) we got a more fleshed out, and dare I say it, tragic portrayal of a Traitor Legion. Also, an account of how Angron's change of their culture put them on a path to Khorne worship. In other words, exactly what many of us want from Heresy novels: context for our heroes and villains, exploration of their changing motives, how they related to others. Huge Titan fights? Those are a bonus.
 
When I heard AD-B was writing a World Eaters story I thought "why would they waste a great writer on a lame Legion?" Simple, because they weren't a lame Legion, they just needed someone with the writing talent to bring out what was already there. And (IMO) he did. Just like he didn't change the World Eaters - he just portrayed them as more well-written, shades-of-grey characters than the b/w zealots they can come across as in 40K fiction or 'fluff'. Angron's character arc alone (through 'Butchers Nails' and this) is one of the best Primarch character arcs in the series, for my money. You can choose to reject that part of the story, but 'Betrayer' is a popular novel. Not saying that means you can never criticise it, but it does mean that a lot of people enjoyed it. And not just World Eater diehard fans.
 
The WE in 40K are not the WE in 30K. The point of the story is: how did they get there? Heck, that's arguably the point of most of the Horus Heresy series: how did we get here? It's like saying "The Plague Marines are all the Death Guard are. Dumb, rotting zombie Space Marines who want to spread plagues everywhere. Why would you waste time on what they were like before?"
 
Saying that there's no reason behind the story just doesn't make sense to me, but that's, like, your opinion, man. You summarised the book in a few sentences and made it sound trite and nonsensical - good job. (Guilliman is 'just there for Primarch fist-fight porn'? How about one of the most cathartic Primarch-on-Primarch fights we've seen so far?) We can all do that, with any book ever. Moby Dick? Some guy tries to find a whale, he dies - what an idiot! Also, humans can't kill whales, just look at how big they are, that's ridiculous!
 
I could write about 10 times this much on almost every assertion you made, but in the end, your opinions are probably pretty set, just like mine are. I'm in danger of becoming the guy who shows up and goes "SHUT UP THOUGH" whenever negative things are said about Heresy novels, and I don't want to be that guy (mainly because there just aren't enough hours in the day).

[Chaeron]

 

I could write about 10 times this much on almost every assertion you made, but in the end, your opinions are probably pretty set, just like mine are. I'm in danger of becoming the guy who shows up and goes "SHUT UP THOUGH" whenever negative things are said about Heresy novels, and I don't want to be that guy (mainly because there just aren't enough hours in the day).

Know that feeling :lol:

 

Always nice to see differing perspectives though.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Saying that there's no reason behind the story just doesn't make sense to me, but that's, like, your opinion, man. You summarised the book in a few sentences and made it sound trite and nonsensical - good job.

I've done a far longer analysis of the novel in the past. This was short on purpose. I even made it longer than the rest because I knew if I didn't qualify why people would froth and rage, lol.

(Guilliman is 'just there for Primarch fist-fight porn'? How about one of the most cathartic Primarch-on-Primarch fights we've seen so far?)

Or, the fights with no resolution cheapen the impact of such confrontations. In the original stories, when primarchs fought primarchs it was serious business. Somebody usually died. Horus vs Sanguinius. Guilliman vs Alpharius. Guilliman vs Fulgrim. Fulgrim vs Ferrus. Now they are just the Japanese schoolgirl panty shot of the Heresy series. It's fan service. Curze/Lionel/Guilliman from Unremembered Novel. Same thing. No significance, no tension. Just a big rumble and everyone lives to fight another day.

Removing the Ultramarines from the story accomplishes two things. First off, it removes one of the most uncharacteristic depictions of Guilliman possible. Guilliman as the impetuous, irrational, revenge-consumed buffoon who chases after a superior enemy fleet just to get some punches in is about as far from his character as possible. Sounds more like Russ. Second, it removes the need for that silly battle where the World Eaters suck at everything they do, and die in droves, but still win, and somehow don't suffer such ridiculous casualties that they are never a viable fighting force ever again. It could have been a good Limited Edition Novella. The Black Library loves those. Coulda given it some gold leaf and a three figure price tag, lol. As a novel, it was just two-thirds filler. Another installment stretching out a series that should have been completed by now. But isn't, because finishing the story would mean closing down the cash cow. Instead, we get a giant game of Primarch Pinball as they bounce around a massive galaxy.

Also, humans can't kill whales, just look at how big they are, that's ridiculous!

I don't know, the Japanese seem to do a pretty good job of it.

The reality is that the World Eaters dance behind a tissue paper veneer. There's just not a lot to them. Their depiction in the Forgeworld books is really no better. I've read that too. It's just as silly. Just as much "This only works because we say it does". Built a ramp over the wall out of their corpses, still manage to maintain one of the largest legion sizes. Might as well paste that on a Success Baby meme. The reality is that the only way the World Eaters successfully do anything is when you just tell us they do. Don't try to explain it. Angron turned out the way he was because of his upbringing and the Nails, but the War Hounds were aggressive and short tempered because of their geneseed even before he came back? Wat? The chain axe was a symbol of the World Eaters because it only had one purpose - to kill? What about bolters? Or chainswords? Or everything else the Space Marines use? What alternate purpose do those serve? This is the writing you're defending as "more fleshed out" and "giving context". Choose leaders by strength of arms and remain an effective fighting force? Sure you do. Did Gork tell you that?

I'm not saying they're the Orks of the setting because they're violent. They're the Orks of 40K because nothing they do makes sense, and you're just supposed to roll with it. But you also don't try to write books that are too detailed about them. They're the grimdark dial turned to 10. For some reason, the Emprah removed two of his sons entirely from the record, but he kept the one who was lobotomized and uncontrollable? And made him a general? He chastised his one son for conquering too slow, and another for being too ruthless, but he didn't chastise the one that ruined his entire legion with expressly forbidden psycho-surgery? I mean, Lorgar at least had a right to be petulant. He didn't even get a warning before the Emprah smashed one of his favorite toys. Angron, on the other hand, was specifically told not to do something, and ignored it, lol. This is the guy we're talking about. He's a cartoon. Named Angr[y]on, because he was the Daemon Primarch of the Chaos God of Being Angry back in the day when it was okay to name primarchs after repressed English poets, or Iron Hands because he was the primarch of the Iron Hands. The Heresy novels are successful when they dance around these limitations. Not when they try to confront them.

And I get that my analyses of these novels go far deeper than things most 40K fans care about. I'm always going to be more concerned with the narrative and characterization than the action. Bolter porn is easy to write, and boring. I want characters whose depictions are consistent and believable, and a story that exists to do something other than facilitate more words on the next page. The failings of Betrayer weren't really from a technical standpoint. It was because there's no way to give a third dimension to a character whose entire character and plot arc has been defined by being two dimensional. Any attempt to do so will seem fake and forced. The reality is that the only way to make Angron believable would be to retcon most of what existed about him and start from scratch. As it stands, his entire premise is flimsy as hell, and better left alone. he more you try to explain something that is silly, the more pronounced its silliness is. The people who like Betrayer, like it because they aren't digging any deeper into the characterization than what is being told to them. "This is on the page, thus it is so". I'm in the back asking "Why would he do that? How does it work?" He wouldn't. And it doesn't.

And before you ask, I ask myself why I keep reading these things. I don't have a good answer aside from "My buddy consumes these things impulsively and then gives them to me." Heck, I don't even read many of them all the way through. I was surprised by Fulgrim's appearance at the end of VS simply because I'd completely lost interest in the character/plot thread where his involvement was obviously foreshadowed and was skipping all of those sections.

[Wade Garrett]

Yes, the old lore Roboute Guilliman would never do something as reckless as a full drop pod assault into the heart of an enemy force to kill the enemy Primarch without sufficient preparation ahead of time.

 

Except for that time he did exactly that at Eskrador in Index Astartes: Alpha Legion.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Yes, the old lore Roboute Guilliman would never do something as reckless as a full drop pod assault into the heart of an enemy force to kill the enemy Primarch without sufficient preparation ahead of time.

 

Except for that time he did exactly that at Eskrador in Index Astartes: Alpha Legion.

Except that was obviously calculated to cut the head off the snake. And there's nothing in the story of Eskrador that suggests it was done "without sufficient preparation". You just made that part up in a blind swing at making a point.

 

If we're going to discuss this, let's do it like adults.

[Marshal Rohr]

Saying that there's no reason behind the story just doesn't make sense to me, but that's, like, your opinion, man. You summarised the book in a few sentences and made it sound trite and nonsensical - good job.

I've done a far longer analysis of the novel in the past. This was short on purpose. I even made it longer than the rest because I knew if I didn't qualify why people would froth and rage, lol.

(Guilliman is 'just there for Primarch fist-fight porn'? How about one of the most cathartic Primarch-on-Primarch fights we've seen so far?)

Or, the fights with no resolution cheapen the impact of such confrontations. In the original stories, when primarchs fought primarchs it was serious business. Somebody usually died. Horus vs Sanguinius. Guilliman vs Alpharius. Guilliman vs Fulgrim. Fulgrim vs Ferrus. Now they are just the Japanese schoolgirl panty shot of the Heresy series. It's fan service. Curze/Lionel/Guilliman from Unremembered Novel. Same thing. No significance, no tension. Just a big rumble and everyone lives to fight another day.

Removing the Ultramarines from the story accomplishes two things. First off, it removes one of the most uncharacteristic depictions of Guilliman possible. Guilliman as the impetuous, irrational, revenge-consumed buffoon who chases after a superior enemy fleet just to get some punches in is about as far from his character as possible. Sounds more like Russ. Second, it removes the need for that silly battle where the World Eaters suck at everything they do, and die in droves, but still win, and somehow don't suffer such ridiculous casualties that they are never a viable fighting force ever again. It could have been a good Limited Edition Novella. The Black Library loves those. Coulda given it some gold leaf and a three figure price tag, lol. As a novel, it was just two-thirds filler. Another installment stretching out a series that should have been completed by now. But isn't, because finishing the story would mean closing down the cash cow. Instead, we get a giant game of Primarch Pinball as they bounce around a massive galaxy.

Also, humans can't kill whales, just look at how big they are, that's ridiculous!

I don't know, the Japanese seem to do a pretty good job of it.

The reality is that the World Eaters dance behind a tissue paper veneer. There's just not a lot to them. Their depiction in the Forgeworld books is really no better. I've read that too. It's just as silly. Just as much "This only works because we say it does". Built a ramp over the wall out of their corpses, still manage to maintain one of the largest legion sizes. Might as well paste that on a Success Baby meme. The reality is that the only way the World Eaters successfully do anything is when you just tell us they do. Don't try to explain it. Angron turned out the way he was because of his upbringing and the Nails, but the War Hounds were aggressive and short tempered because of their geneseed even before he came back? Wat? The chain axe was a symbol of the World Eaters because it only had one purpose - to kill? What about bolters? Or chainswords? Or everything else the Space Marines use? What alternate purpose do those serve? This is the writing you're defending as "more fleshed out" and "giving context". Choose leaders by strength of arms and remain an effective fighting force? Sure you do. Did Gork tell you that?

I think you're not giving enough credit to the technology the legions possess. Power armor entirely eliminates the need for most modern tactical doctrine. You can, literally, charge an enemy headlong and close the gap fast enough to hit him in the face with an axe. It succeeds because it is possible, but casualties are high because it isn't the best way of doing something. By your analysis, how did the German and Gallic tribes ever win a war at all, because the Roman Legions existed? Sure a block of heavy infantry that fights in a methodical and consistent manner was the best form of infantry warfare at the time, but that doesn't mean other things don't work at all. Its clear by now that geneseed was engineered to make each legion have certain characteristics, and each Primarch was also specifically created to have the same characteristics. You might not like the language used, but you need to delve deeper into the function of what the language means. The World Eaters prefer a frontal assault? So did the Russians, and the Soviets marched into Berlin all the same. You think the frontal assault is a poor strategy? So does most everyone, but given the greatest general on the Eastern Front was a season, its unsurprising that the rest of the war was a little more blunt and a little less finesse. It's always been established space marines choose leaders on prowess as well as strategic ability, with a wide spectrum of where the commander falls. There is no S-3 shop in a legion, because they dont need one. A Legionary is not a warfighter like the modern infantryman, and warfighting as we understand it in the 21st Century doesnt apply to 30K. This is a universe with plasma weaponry, but no telecommunications or satellites. Gigantic fusion reactors powering multi-story walkers, and horse cavalry. A universe with ships the size of asteroids and moons, but they have to use made up mutants to communicate.

I'm not saying they're the Orks of the setting because they're violent. They're the Orks of 40K because nothing they do makes sense, and you're just supposed to roll with it. But you also don't try to write books that are too detailed about them. They're the grimdark dial turned to 10. For some reason, the Emprah removed two of his sons entirely from the record, but he kept the one who was lobotomized and uncontrollable? And made him a general? He chastised his one son for conquering too slow, and another for being too ruthless, but he didn't chastise the one that ruined his entire legion with expressly forbidden psycho-surgery? I mean, Lorgar at least had a right to be petulant. He didn't even get a warning before the Emprah smashed one of his favorite toys. Angron, on the other hand, was specifically told not to do something, and ignored it, lol. This is the guy we're talking about. He's a cartoon. Named Angr[y]on, because he was the Daemon Primarch of the Chaos God of Being Angry back in the day when it was okay to name primarchs after repressed English poets, or Iron Hands because he was the primarch of the Iron Hands. The Heresy novels are successful when they dance around these limitations. Not when they try to confront them.

The Emperor removed two of his sons for reasons that were implicitly worse that Angron's sins. They made him a general because he was still a Primarch. Right tool for the right job, and Angron was a tool like each Primarch. Horus Heresy authors, not novels, are successful when they excited the fan base with their interpretation of a faction. While Betrayer may not have been to your taste, it was of enough people's taste to make NYT Best Sellers.

And I get that my analyses of these novels go far deeper than things most 40K fans care about. I'm always going to be more concerned with the narrative and characterization than the action. Bolter porn is easy to write, and boring. I want characters whose depictions are consistent and believable, and a story that exists to do something other than facilitate more words on the next page. The failings of Betrayer weren't really from a technical standpoint. It was because there's no way to give a third dimension to a character whose entire character and plot arc has been defined by being two dimensional. Any attempt to do so will seem fake and forced. The reality is that the only way to make Angron believable would be to retcon most of what existed about him and start from scratch. As it stands, his entire premise is flimsy as hell, and better left alone. he more you try to explain something that is silly, the more pronounced its silliness is. The people who like Betrayer, like it because they aren't digging any deeper into the characterization than what is being told to them. "This is on the page, thus it is so". I'm in the back asking "Why would he do that? How does it work?" He wouldn't. And it doesn't.

But your analysis is incorrectly focused. You're blending literary criticism and operational analysis, while entirely ignoring the institutions, structures, and technological capabilities that allow a Legion like the World Eaters to function. Throwing Salt over your shoulder is silly, but rapidly becomes serious as :cuss when you explain why it happens.

To answer your specific questions: 'Why would he do that? How does it work?'

Because he has a cybernetic parasite altering his brain chemistry while causing extensive neurological damage. See people with Brain Injuries who suddenly have no control over their emotions or body. It works because he is still supported by an extensive staff of human planners that form the equivalent of general/brigade/battalion staff, and the tactical/strategic difficulties caused by the nails are made up for by the technological capabilities of the Legions and the Astartes physiology and armor.

Ultimately, if it's not to your taste, that's fine. I don't enjoy fish, but many do. It doesn't mean that fish is valueless and I'm the only one that sees the 'TRUTH'.

[Wade Garrett]

You just made that part up in a blind swing at making a point.

 

If we're going to discuss this, let's do it like adults.

I bet adults actually read the sources cited instead of accusing other people of making stuff up and insulting them.

 

INDEX ASTARTES: ALPHA LEGION

Indeed, Guilliman's initial deployment followed exactly the doctrines set down in his own writings, and the Alpha Legion moved to trap them. But Guilliman chose the first nightfall to do something unexpected. Breaking his own rules of operation, he led a large portion of his own forces deep into the mountains, deploying by Thunderhawks, Droppods and teleporters into the midst of the Alpha Legion with no lines of support or supply. Guilliman's target was the enemy command centre and none other than Alpharius himself.

[TrafficCustodes]

In the original stories, when primarchs fought primarchs it was serious business. Somebody usually died. Horus vs Sanguinius. Guilliman vs Alpharius. Guilliman vs Fulgrim. Fulgrim vs Ferrus. Now they are just the Japanese schoolgirl panty shot of the Heresy series. It's fan service. Curze/Lionel/Guilliman from Unremembered Novel. Same thing. No significance, no tension. Just a big rumble and everyone lives to fight another day.

Clearly we see 'Unremembered Novel' (and please keep calling it that - very droll) in different ways. I personally thought the sequence you're talking about was a nice diversion (nobody is going to claim that fight was the entire point of the novel) and a tribute to Abnett's comic book-writing past. I mean, superhumans beating each other senseless and wrecking a whole city. It's right out of 'Avengers Assemble', or any number of DC/Marvel publications. But... the stakes aren't high because nobody dies? You need to accept that for some of us, the emotional stakes are still high for that scene, even with a death count of zero. (And, hey, those examples you gave? Only two ended in fatalities, so are they really "serious business"?) The book has been building up to it for a while: Vulkan gets the catharsis of beating his former tormentor bloody, Guilliman and the Lion have to work together after being at odds for so long, Kurze continues to show that he is actively seeking out death just to defy it a bit more. I felt that Primarch fight was more compelling and enjoyable than the Manus v Fulgrim fight in 'Fulgrim'. But apparently, my enjoyment is akin to looking at Japanese schoolgirls' panties? What the hell, man? That is so not kawaii.

 

Removing the Ultramarines from the story accomplishes two things.

Except the story took place in the Shadow Crusade. The World Eaters and Word Bearers were fighting Ultramarines at that time. That's why they're in the novel.

 

First off, it removes one of the most uncharacteristic depictions of Guilliman possible. Guilliman as the impetuous, irrational, revenge-consumed buffoon who chases after a superior enemy fleet just to get some punches in is about as far from his character as possible. Sounds more like Russ.

In your post it feels like you're holding up consistency as the highest virtue in characterisation. But if a character only ever acts a certain way, they can't really have much of an arc. So we say that Roboute is stern, logical, a perfectionist, a masterful tactician. But if we then say that, his character now established, the novelists can portray him exclusively with these traits - well, that's extremely boring. It can be jarring when a character acts illogically, or does something you think is stupid. But it's not always a sign their character is broken and the author needs to stop wasting their time. It can be character development. Remember how steamed RG was at the end of 'Know No Fear', when he was forced to flee Calth? Can you accept that maybe, his thirst for revenge might get the best of him if the opportunity for confronting Lorgar presented itself?

 

The Primarchs are fallible. All of them, on at least one level. Most of them in more that one level. As you said, Angron is defined primarily by his anger, in the 'fluff' of the hobby. But 'Betrayer' shows that he isn't only capable of anger. We see that he has a sense of humour - a twisted and confrontational one, but a sense of humour nonetheless. We see that he is capable of respecting and honouring some allies, and incapable of respecting others, and we see some of the logic for that. We see grief, when he sees the bones of the armies he left to die. We even see that not all of the anger is caused by the Nails, in his speech to Guilliman. You've come away from all that thinking it's not enough to move the character past being a cardboard cutout with an angry face on it. That's fine. You also think that the Guilliman here is drastically O.O.C for what's come before, and again, that's fine. But when you see other people expressing a contrary view, don't say stuff like this:

 

And I get that my analyses of these novels go far deeper than things most 40K fans care about. I'm always going to be more concerned with the narrative and characterization than the action... The people who like Betrayer, like it because they aren't digging any deeper into the characterization than what is being told to them. "This is on the page, thus it is so". I'm in the back asking "Why would he do that? How does it work?" He wouldn't. And it doesn't.

 

And before you ask, I ask myself why I keep reading these things. I don't have a good answer aside from "My buddy consumes these things impulsively and then gives them to me." Heck, I don't even read many of them all the way through. I was surprised by Fulgrim's appearance at the end of VS simply because I'd completely lost interest in the character/plot thread where his involvement was obviously foreshadowed and was skipping all of those sections.

You know, it's possible to provide a dissenting voice without being incredibly condescending. Even when you're talking to 40K fans.